Thread: Garalon Help

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  1. #1

    Garalon Help

    Hello,

    Having spent the best part of 3 nights wiping at ~8-12%, it is apparent that we have a dps issue. We know it is our hunters but I can't work out why their damage is so low.

    Our raid comp is:

    BrM Monk
    Prot Pally

    Resto Shammy
    Resto Druid
    Holy Pally

    Shadow Priest
    Fire Mage
    Frost DK
    2x Hunters (have tried both survival and BM)

    Both tanks are fully gemmed/reforged dps and stay on the boss full time. Pheromone kiters are Resto Druid -> Hunter 1 -> Resto Shammy -> Hunter 2 taking 20 stacks each.

    We have tried with our fire mage kiting but he lost too much damage. We have tried it with tanks kiting, but we lost too much damage. We have tried to 2 heal it but the healers struggled.

    Surely the hunters can still put out decent enough damage whilst kiting?

    Below is hopefully our WoL from last night's best try and you can see the issue we have:

    worldoflogs.com/reports/mumy5468np56cszr/sum/damageDone/?s=4193&e=4619

    As a small 10 man team we do not have the option to switch out one or both the hunters.

    Any help would be much appreciated, we are banging our heads against a wall atm!

  2. #2
    Try it with your tanks in dps specs, if you have 3 healers, one of whom isn't even involved in kiting, the extra healing should be negligible.

    Tank damage is minuscule with the lack of meaningful vengeance on this fight.

    Also, you may find it easier to include your 3rd healer in the kiting, you'll always have 2 healers free, like before, except this way you can take 15 stacks each reducing overall raid healing requirement.

  3. #3
    You say the tank damage is minuscule however you will see from the logs that I (BrM) am doing 30 mil damage and 71k dps on an enrage wipe. The pally was doing 20 mil damage and 46k dps. Surely this is easily high enough. Like I stated above it is a clear problem with our hunters, they assure me they are dpsing whilst kiting but their damage output would say otherwise.

    Are you saying use 5 pheromone kiters then? This would like to more Crush's more frequently and is surely more healing than just 4 people with 20 stacks?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Akiie View Post
    Also, you may find it easier to include your 3rd healer in the kiting, you'll always have 2 healers free, like before, except this way you can take 15 stacks each reducing overall raid healing requirement.
    Surely the amount of extra crushes this would bring would mean it would bring no dps gain, maybe even a dps loss.

    --

    From looking at your logs - the lowest hunter has only 85% active time whereas most of your dps are around 98% - i know he's doing pheromones but your other hunter managed 98.9% active time so something seems to be able to be done there?

    [edit] aha a death :P well theres a big dps loss

    [edit] do just your melee make an effort to go in the leg circles?

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Woknroll7 View Post
    You say the tank damage is minuscule however you will see from the logs that I (BrM) am doing 30 mil damage and 71k dps on an enrage wipe. The pally was doing 20 mil damage and 46k dps. Surely this is easily high enough. Like I stated above it is a clear problem with our hunters, they assure me they are dpsing whilst kiting but their damage output would say otherwise.

    Are you saying use 5 pheromone kiters then? This would like to more Crush's more frequently and is surely more healing than just 4 people with 20 stacks?
    Yeah, alot more healing I'd imagine, I don't think its worth it. With the crushs bring healing + stuns on the dps it just seems bad to have more.
    Last edited by castalya; 2012-11-16 at 12:37 PM. Reason: he died, didnt notice before

  5. #5
    This may very well be a function of the way in which you are kiting him? Are you pulling him from straight ahead?

    On try 6, one of your hunters does 0 damage about 40 seconds, this could simply be that he's out of range when he's doing his section of the kiting.

    XXXXXXXXOXXXXXXXXXXXBXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


    ______________L________________L




    ______________L________________L

    Take that as a diagram of the room, rudimentary as it may be. The B is where i've seen 99% of people pull from, then kite round clockwise, if you pull from the O, then again, kite clockwise, taking the long run to the far wall then the path he takes when you kite should put him in range of your range DPS for the entire circuit. Also, your fire mage shouldn't lose gigantic amounts of DPS by running.

    Also, to make up your DPS, we ask our healers to do 8 million damage between them, to help make up the enrage. Not an issue since our first kill, but you get the point i think.

    Here's our first kill, if it helps in any way.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5...?s=6036&e=6456

  6. #6
    This fight is terrible for Hunter DPS. It was even worse before, but now that pets benefit from weak points they're not quite so bad. But it's still not optimal in the slightest.

    However, this is offset by the fact that Hunters are the best kiters for this fight, bar none. A position which will only get stronger in 5.1 with the removal of Aspect of the Fox (and all abilities being able to be cast on the move by default).

    Ergo, you want both your Hunters kiting and either 2 healers or the 2 tanks. Personally my raid group uses 1 hunter, 1 healer, and the 2 tanks: this is because we only had 1 hunter in the raid, and we took 2 healers for our kill.

    Essentially we were struggling on the DPS as well, until we decided to bench a healer and bring in an extra DPS. This worked, we got our kill.

    That said, I can see a lot of areas of slack, not just in your hunters. The fact is your mage and priest are pretty low on DPS given the mechanics of the encounter: they can and should be doing at least another 15k - 20k. Hunters cannot benefit from the mechanics nearly as much, so their DPS suffers (but they do the kiting so the other classes can do extra DPS).

    Your Hunters can certainly do more DPS, but overall your entire raid (sans tanks/the DK) should be doing a lot more given the situation.

    Oh yeah, and while the Paladin going DPS spec would help a lot, the Brewmaster Monk cannot do the same. So much of a Monk's mitigation comes from simply being in the correct spec, while the Paladin can get by with high armor. But your Monk is doing great DPS in tank spec anyway, so it's a non-issue. Your Paladin could add on an extra 20k DPS or so by going DPS spec though.
    Last edited by Kisho; 2012-11-16 at 12:41 PM.

  7. #7
    Your druid healers HPS looks to be low? Is that the healer you replaced for 2 heal trys?



    Heres my guilds log if you wanna compare:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/iosjc...=11147&e=11560

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by castalya View Post
    snip
    A crush will bring around far less raid damage than the total of stacking all the way to 20, and only minorly reduces damage.

    Why would you have only melee in the circles? Range should stand in them too, but in terms of increasing raid DPS, you should make sure that only people in circles DPS the legs, you're wasting total damage if someone outside hits a leg.

  9. #9
    We do indeed pull the boss from 'B'
    Last edited by Woknroll7; 2012-11-16 at 12:52 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Akiie View Post
    Why would you have only melee in the circles? Range should stand in them too, but in terms of increasing raid DPS, you should make sure that only people in circles DPS the legs, you're wasting total damage if someone outside hits a leg.
    Yeah thats what I was gonna say - as i know on our first trys my raid leader said ranged shouldnt bother, but after a few 4% wipes they decided to do it and that added with my smiting got us the kill.

  11. #11
    Our druid healer is slightly undergeared and would be the healer that we sat out if we were to 2 heal it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 12:51 PM ----------

    So with regards to the dps, who should focus the legs and who should focus the body? We currently have it that the 2 tanks take the front 2 legs, everyone else on the back legs. Should the ranged dps focus purely on the body and let the Dk take the back legs?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Woknroll7 View Post
    So with regards to the dps, who should focus the legs and who should focus the body? We currently have it that the 2 tanks take the front 2 legs, everyone else on the back legs. Should the ranged dps focus purely on the body and let the Dk take the back legs?
    idk if its the best way but we have all our dps do all legs to get them down asap, and our tanks focus front legs (whilst making sure they will still be hit by the cone)

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    This fight is terrible for Hunter DPS. It was even worse before, but now that pets benefit from weak points they're not quite so bad. But it's still not optimal in the slightest.

    However, this is offset by the fact that Hunters are the best kiters for this fight, bar none. A position which will only get stronger in 5.1 with the removal of Aspect of the Fox (and all abilities being able to be cast on the move by default).

    Ergo, you want both your Hunters kiting and either 2 healers or the 2 tanks. Personally my raid group uses 1 hunter, 1 healer, and the 2 tanks: this is because we only had 1 hunter in the raid, and we took 2 healers for our kill.

    Essentially we were struggling on the DPS as well, until we decided to bench a healer and bring in an extra DPS. This worked, we got our kill.

    That said, I can see a lot of areas of slack, not just in your hunters. The fact is your mage and priest are pretty low on DPS given the mechanics of the encounter: they can and should be doing at least another 15k - 20k. Hunters cannot benefit from the mechanics nearly as much, so their DPS suffers (but they do the kiting so the other classes can do extra DPS).

    Your Hunters can certainly do more DPS, but overall your entire raid (sans tanks/the DK) should be doing a lot more given the situation.

    Oh yeah, and while the Paladin going DPS spec would help a lot, the Brewmaster Monk cannot do the same. So much of a Monk's mitigation comes from simply being in the correct spec, while the Paladin can get by with high armor. But your Monk is doing great DPS in tank spec anyway, so it's a non-issue. Your Paladin could add on an extra 20k DPS or so by going DPS spec though.
    This is why we choose to us the 2 hunters, their damage output not as high as other class' in this fight but also their ability to dps on the move. We did try it with our pally tank in ret spec but the healers were not happy with the amount of damage he was taking from the cleave, he would often be taken down to ~35% HP.

    Another way we have tried it is with the DK soaking but again he lost so much damage it didn't seem worthwile.

    I have spent alot of time looking into this fight in terms of forum threads, logs etc and we know that the issue is with our hunters mainly, had we had say a rogue to replace a hunter, I believe this boss would be long dead. However we don't have that setup and somehow need to use the current setup.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 01:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by castalya View Post
    idk if its the best way but we have all our dps do all legs to get them down asap, and our tanks focus front legs (whilst making sure they will still be hit by the cone)
    So we are doing the same there. We originally had the tanks kiting pheromones but we would often be to far away from the boss to do both damage and take the cleave.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Akiie View Post
    A crush will bring around far less raid damage than the total of stacking all the way to 20, and only minorly reduces damage.

    Why would you have only melee in the circles? Range should stand in them too, but in terms of increasing raid DPS, you should make sure that only people in circles DPS the legs, you're wasting total damage if someone outside hits a leg.
    Not true, melee should be able to get every leg down and time on the boss body itself in between. The ranged trying to stay in the moving circles would bring down overall dps by a fair margin.

    Just have your prot paladin go ret, we did this too on 10m. The cone thingie barely hurts, his armor will be enough to make him survive. Just make sure he is always topped off. That should gain you a whole lot of dps.

  15. #15
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
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    the way we've been doing since release week is having 5 kiters (2xtanks + 3xhealers) thereby causing no DPS loss whatsover to that aspect of the fight.

    Rotation: Tank1 --> Healer1 --> Tank2 --> Healer2 --> Healer3
    rinse and repeat...
    the only important aspect of the rotation above is that you should have a tank start, s.t. he/she runs and pulls the boss at the start and no-one needs to wait because the first pheromone target is not close enough to the boss.


    In addition, have melee focus the back two legs and ranged only handle one of the front legs. This is because depending on which direction you kite the boss, one of the front legs will usually be less accessible. This less accessible front-leg should be handled by the tanks, and the other more accessible front-leg should be the prio of the ranged dps (though tanks can help as well).

    There are a variety of strats that are viable for this fight but I hope the above one helps your group achieve a kill.

  16. #16
    Like I said from the start, it's not so much any of the tactics we try and who is doing what, it is down to our hunters not putting out enough damage. I appreciate all the suggestions but at the same time we are missing 20 million damage from a kill and this is down to the hunters alone. They both know that they are the reason, what I want to know is is there anything that they can do to increase their output to make up the difference?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 01:10 PM ----------

    These are the logs from our best try the night before:

    worldoflogs.com/reports/9jbb4r559r9fe6rc/sum/damageDone/?s=7220&e=7646

    The 2 tanks were fully tank specced/gemmed etc, yet the hunter's are still low. At this stage the only option I think we have to to try to recruit a melee dps to switch in for the lowest hunter, but will this be enough?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Woknroll7 View Post
    Like I said from the start, it's not so much any of the tactics we try and who is doing what, it is down to our hunters not putting out enough damage. I appreciate all the suggestions but at the same time we are missing 20 million damage from a kill and this is down to the hunters alone. They both know that they are the reason, what I want to know is is there anything that they can do to increase their output to make up the difference?
    This fight is great for cleave/multi dot classes like your frost DK, shadow or fire mage. For hunters - not so much, especially if they have to kite and thus don't benefit from the weak points (100% more damage) buff that much.

    Btw, the DPS of your mage and shadow doesn't look too hot either, despite them having big advantages in this fight. It seems their weak points buff uptime is not that great. In the try you mentioned, the shadow had an uptime of 33% on one leg and 5%+2% on two other legs. Looking at the best priests on Worldoflogs, they seem to have much higher uptimes (33%,18%,13%,13% for the one on rank 1, for instance).
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/9jbb4...?s=7220&e=7646

    You won't change your hunters into a cleave/multi-dot class, but you could try let the tanks do the kiting as was mentioned before, so the hunters could at least use the weak points buff more.
    Last edited by Lil; 2012-11-16 at 01:55 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Lil View Post

    Btw, the DPS of your mage and shadow doesn't look too hot either, despite them having big advantages in this fight. It seems their weak points buff uptime is not that great. In the try you mentioned, the shadow had an uptime of 33% on one leg and 5%+2% on two other legs. Looking at the best priests on Worldoflogs, they seem to have much higher uptimes (33%,18%,13%,13% for the one on rank 1, for instance).
    I'm the priest ^^ The reason for the uptime was I was told to purely dps the back legs and focus on Garalon himself. The front legs were being handled by tanks. Whereas I was trying to help as much as I could by throwing dots on them, I was focusing on the body primarily and the back legs were not always up.

    As for the weak points buff, the way Garalon is being kited dotting the pheromones around the room, we came to the conclusion that it's not always viable to try to keep within the weak points circles, mainly because one of his legs was almost constantly out of the fighting area and if we were to get inside the green circle we'd have been stood on the pheromone patches.

    We moved into the circles when we could, but as I said it wasn't always viable and we figured we'd lose out on a lot more damage than we'd gain by dodging cleaves and pheromones getting to them.

    Again, open to suggestions on this though! Thanks

  19. #19
    This is how we did it. Sloppy as fuck, but eh. Dead is dead.

  20. #20
    Mechagnome
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    Hey.. we had exactly the same issue - we solved it by me(ret paladin) soaking with prot warrior and all 3 healers kiting. First prot warrior started kiting, then passed it to other healers. Hunters usually underperform on this fight, no clue why since pet damage was fixed. We were struggling with enrage and as soon as we swapped to this tactic, we killed it 30 seconds before. Hope this will help ya. Good luck.
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