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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Kezuma View Post
    i hardly think u would be any close to a gladiator this season my friend and rly the fact that u come here and say ye ye i;m gladiator the class is fine dosnt cut it , just cuz u;ve been a gladiator when the rogues were fine dosnt make them fine now
    4.3 rogues were fine? lol

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by raintrees View Post
    the kind of people that play rogues are usually those with quick tempers and rage the most. so naturally when they stop being the golden child of blizzard those kinds of people just have a spaz destroy their rogues. thats why there arent many around and blizz had to temp those people with shiney orange daggers *shrugs*
    Thing is, if your rogue sucks balls, you can't just respec Resto/Feral/Balance/whatever and have always at least 1 spec that works.

    Also even if we somehow get our mobility fixed, the class feels so outdated, slow, no cool graphical or fun effects, 0 effort went to Rogues for MoP and it is really evident.
    We need a complete overhaul, Warlock style.
    Last edited by Stannis; 2012-11-25 at 03:06 PM.

  3. #203
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stannis View Post
    Thing is, if your rogue sucks balls, you can't just respec Resto/Feral/Balance/whatever and have always at least 1 spec that works.

    Also even if we somehow get our mobility fixed, the class feels so outdated, slow, no cool graphical or fun effects, 0 effort went to Rogues for MoP and it is really evident.
    We need a complete overhaul, Warlock style.
    I don't see that happening til the next expansion :O

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Woop Woop View Post
    4.3 rogues were fine? lol
    rogues were fine friend Vial of Shadows was broken rly pay attention to the game and aswell not all rogues had legendary daggers to bring that in here. Legendary proc +VIal of shadows was OP but that doesnt make the class itself op

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Neezh View Post
    Do you have a source that mostly kids play rogues?
    Their behaviour, language, attention span of boiled cabbage?

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Findme View Post
    That Video should explain it
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nncOKX0y5lo
    Anyone who questions Rogues Arena suckability right now has gotta watch this...

    Its Mercader one of the most well-known competition arena players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saffa View Post
    Their behaviour, language, attention span of boiled cabbage?
    So i got to highest Ach score on my realm and i got no attention span?

    And lets add its the highest Horde populated realm EU too... damn i must have the attanetion span of a goldfish *gulp*

  7. #207
    I personally have difficulty seeing why a rogue would bother. I saw most of WotLK and Cata's raiding, and the class just looks... Samey; WotLK combat rogue, +revealing strike for Cata, +a different (and less interesting, somehow) revealing strike for MoP. I'd rather jump to another class that actually receives a bit of new meat on its bones every expac rather than the same recycled sludge jumbled up into a new pattern, or at the very least a class which has alternatives to purely DPSing.

    So yeah I'm levelling a paladin now.

    I realise I'm not much of a PvPer so this possibly isn't as relevant as you'd like but from what I hear the grass is even worse on the PvP side. Same class, except without the backbone of the rogue's survivability or mobility. Just a step backwards, which should never be the goal in a new expansion.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Anyone who questions Rogues Arena suckability right now has gotta watch this...

    Its Mercader one of the most well-known competition arena players.
    Mercader is a bad player. Nice guy, but only average. Never been Glad, etc. He is the swifty of rogues, and using a video of him to say rogues are bad just doesn't work.

  9. #209
    Rogues are shit again at the start of every expac like usual, nothing new here.

  10. #210
    Tried playing my old rogue...boring as fuck. My ret pala and frost dk are also boring as fuck. My hunter is actually more fun than these guys and I don't play ranged classes because they are usually boring.

  11. #211
    no more legendaries and op trinkets...fewer rogues

  12. #212
    Bloodsail Admiral Lazuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenTaurus View Post
    In short

    Class mechanics and rotations haven't really changed or been "refreshed" in 7 years leading to boredom.
    It's a pure dps class that's not doing decent dps.
    Last few expansions every class got pretty much everything (we have an overdose of stuns, sprints, heals, knockbacks, etc...) and all their fabulous "utility" is now 7 years old/outdated and irrelevant.

    So yeah. People quit with good reason.
    (despite kids here calling other people kids and making predictable cheap comments like "They can't 2shot people anymore so they QQ" *rolls eyes* Grow up.)
    This guy is spot on. Rogues are just a boring class now and get nothing special really, also they are mediocre in damage right now as always until later in the end of the expansion when we are able to global people and all the fotm rollers will play them again until the next expansion rolls around and they are useless and boring again with nothing new added to the class. Same shit different day, also combo points are just fucking retarded annoying after all these years with no real good innovations to it. I've been wanting Blizz to add CP to the rogue for yeaaaaaaars

  13. #213
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArekuD View Post
    no more legendaries and op trinkets...fewer rogues
    Fewer? More like nearly extinct lol I feel bad =/

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by ArekuD View Post
    no more legendaries and op trinkets...fewer rogues
    S9 had no legendaries/op trinkets but there were more rogues in PVP than there are now. The reason is, in S9 the class was pretty balanced in arenas (ie fun).
    Stormscale Horde EU | http://lastrogue.com

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grawlix View Post
    Mercader is a bad player. Nice guy, but only average. Never been Glad, etc. He is the swifty of rogues, and using a video of him to say rogues are bad just doesn't work.
    Well we have to use a video of him, because good players like Reckful are playing Warriors right now!

    (By the way, that was mostly a joke...)

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Grawlix View Post
    Mercader is a bad player. Nice guy, but only average. Never been Glad, etc. He is the swifty of rogues, and using a video of him to say rogues are bad just doesn't work.
    I completely agree with this statement. He is a 2.2k rogue and that's it. A better example would be Woundman. He was streaming a week ago with some RBGs and Duels. He was unable to out DPS a warrior's Second Wind as assassination. Seems bad.

    Every spec but Sub has slight damage issues. Sub's damage seems fine overall, but, it's not as on-demand as say a warrior or mage. I see it as more closely a demo lock type of damage, burst and done with blades/dance(except demo lock's do far more damage in a short period). The utility and movement is where the serious issues are. We need Shadowstep baseline first off, at least I believe so. That is an opinion though and I am not a dev. I feel like all rogue specs should have a gap closer by default. Second, I believe they should completely remove Prep, but, to equalize this.. they need to reduce all the cooldowns reset by prep. The talent tier with step and prep should be completely revamped to help with utility/mobility. I would love something like a freedom for rogues or giving sprint a freedom-like talent, that would solve a ton of issues. Rogue's survivability isn't as bad as people say, most of the people who say this are using cloak offensive and vanishing for additional pressure YOCRO style.

    Opinions do vary and everyone has them. We will see where the game goes, though, I am enjoying frost mage as a break from rogue for a season or two.


    P.S. Grawlix is a glad rogue, as a fellow KT player I can confirm this. Though, I understand why people request proof. People can have opinions about pvp balance without being R1 Glad. (After all Ghostcrawler has tons of opinions about pvp, yet, he is probably a 1.6k player at best.)

  17. #217
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Making Shadowstep baseline for all rogue specs would help their uptime a lot. Removing Prep and reducing the cooldowns would also be an excellent move (ditto for Cold Snap, in other news). I still think a big part of rogue problems right now would persist despite those changes. The problem is that before, Recuperate reduced damage taken (-6%), regenerated health (like 5% every 2 seconds or w/e - the number doesn't matter), and regenerated 12 energy every tick as well. The energy return was a huge deal - and it got moved to Slice And Dice. At the same time (5.0) Hemo no longer applied the bleed effect, so you have to Rupture (another finisher) people to get the 20% more damage on targets you have a bleed on effect (huge buff, necessary to maintain).

    The effect in 5.0 was that a pvp rogue before only really had to maintain Recuperate to stay in the game and competitive. This meant that all their finishers beyond that generally went into Eviscerate and Kidney Shots. Now, they need to maintain Recuperate for survivability (despite being heavily nerfed even for this purpose), Slice and Dice for energy regeneration (can't play without resources), Rupture for 20% damage buff - and only when all of those are up can they think about Eviscerate and Kidney Shot. Just to be clear - they can still Kidney Shot and Eviscerate without these all up - but they lose enormously by doing so. In PvE, this is less of a concern because of near 100% uptime - in pvp however, a single peel / CC can reset all their work - meaning it takes them another 15-20 seconds on target to set up their three preparatory Finishers - and only then go back to what they intended to do (Eviscerate or Kidney Shot).

    The net effect isn't just that rogues don't have 70% snare, don't have their old survivability, and received big nerfs to cooldown times in 5.0 - but also and perhaps most significantly - that the number of Eviscerates and Kidney Shots a rogue can effectively put out after 5.0 compared to before is like 1/3rd or less.

    Now, some of that is specific to Subtlety of course - because Subtlety was the only real spec before 5.0 - so it's hard to compare say, post 5.0 combat rogues or mutilate rogues to pre 5.0 subtlety rogues (because then you're compensating for both spec and patch differences, rather than just patch differences) - but the general problem is true of all rogue specs right now.
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  18. #218
    Lesson no 1: You cannot, simply cannot come to any PvP forum and ask a question about rogues. 90% of replies will be nothing more than anti-rogue biased trolling from some warrior who died in s11 and conveniently forgot s9.

    Lesson no 2: There are something like 150 warriors in the top 250 3v3 teams. There are 7-8 rogues. Go figure, rogues are garbage. Even GC himself stated something along the lines of "why would you take a rogue, when warriors do everything better?"

  19. #219
    I'm going to sit down and play some rogue this coming week so I can get a better feel for the finisher uptime. I don't feel like I have a complete understanding of what the problem is there yet and I won't pretend I do. I'm sure there is some energy cost changes that could help, but, then that would most likely put us in a position later in the expansion where haste/gear values are higher and we have a lot more output than intended. They could off-load some of the Evis damage into combo point generating abilities as a possible PvP solution. This would give rogues more sustained damage and pressure without hurting PvE as well as giving us more flexibility with combo points when going for kills in pvp. Rogues in PvE right now are fine, if not a little bland so we really aren't looking for buffs there. With the additional uptime we would receive with mobility and gap closing buffs, this would allow us to generate more combo points which leads to more finishers. More finishing moves leads to more damage and utility.

    We also have to remember how well Rogues scale with gear. I know it doesn't help us now, but, it'll be the future soon. Being able to stick to a target is the only serious concern I have at the moment. As I said before, time will tell all...

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Making Shadowstep baseline for all rogue specs would help their uptime a lot. Removing Prep and reducing the cooldowns would also be an excellent move (ditto for Cold Snap, in other news). I still think a big part of rogue problems right now would persist despite those changes. The problem is that before, Recuperate reduced damage taken (-6%), regenerated health (like 5% every 2 seconds or w/e - the number doesn't matter), and regenerated 12 energy every tick as well. The energy return was a huge deal - and it got moved to Slice And Dice. At the same time (5.0) Hemo no longer applied the bleed effect, so you have to Rupture (another finisher) people to get the 20% more damage on targets you have a bleed on effect (huge buff, necessary to maintain).

    The effect in 5.0 was that a pvp rogue before only really had to maintain Recuperate to stay in the game and competitive. This meant that all their finishers beyond that generally went into Eviscerate and Kidney Shots. Now, they need to maintain Recuperate for survivability (despite being heavily nerfed even for this purpose), Slice and Dice for energy regeneration (can't play without resources), Rupture for 20% damage buff - and only when all of those are up can they think about Eviscerate and Kidney Shot. Just to be clear - they can still Kidney Shot and Eviscerate without these all up - but they lose enormously by doing so. In PvE, this is less of a concern because of near 100% uptime - in pvp however, a single peel / CC can reset all their work - meaning it takes them another 15-20 seconds on target to set up their three preparatory Finishers - and only then go back to what they intended to do (Eviscerate or Kidney Shot).

    The net effect isn't just that rogues don't have 70% snare, don't have their old survivability, and received big nerfs to cooldown times in 5.0 - but also and perhaps most significantly - that the number of Eviscerates and Kidney Shots a rogue can effectively put out after 5.0 compared to before is like 1/3rd or less.
    To make this problem even worse backstab lost about 30% of its base dmg and also lost 30% crit and crits for 200% now was 230% before. All of this lost dmg was moved to Eviscerate making so when sub has to use anything other than Eviscerate its dmg is trash.

    You seem to get the main issue which is that almost everything was nerfed that had to do with pvp for rogues in someway and sadly thats not even exaggerating. Rogues were gutted its not hard to see why barely anyone is playing them after you see all the nerfs they took.

    5.0 basically took rogues from one good pvp spec to 3 bad ones you can now play whatever spec you want and be equally terrible....
    Last edited by wow; 2012-11-26 at 10:14 PM.

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