1. #1

    Making my guild work (Issues, Mindset)

    Hello. Wall of text inc.

    I will start this of, by saying I am by no means perfect. Everything in this post my come out very biased from my part, because it is how I feel about the raiders in my guild. I've come here alot recently to ask for advice to improve my guild, and its mostly effort without gain.

    Some info:

    I never raided top 100 or something like that, but I've been playing since release. Not always raiding alot (I only raided 3 times/week in Vanilla and during Ulduar/ToC in Wrath), but always been raiding. A issue I have is, that duo to a tight irl schedule, I can only manage to raid 2 times a week. This made having decent progress hard, leading to the need of excellent members, who both know how to use their mainspec and offspec properly, and use their utility well.

    Since ToC, I've lead a number of guilds, with a combination of the same people.
    In ICC, we managed to get the 10 man drake - As a 10 man only guild. No amazing feat, but this is what got me hooked on some decent progress. (Was always kinda behind when I raided 25).

    In cataclysm, the same guild, minus the members who left, tryed raiding. It was a harsh tier, mostly because the skill lvl of the people didn't match at all. I recruited a guy, which became my officer during the rest of cataclysm tho, and from there on it went up.

    My guilds always had a number of irl friends in it, which is a part of the problem. WIthout those, I would not have fun raiding (I've tryed), but it is what causes some of the issue.
    We are a tight group, consisting of 6 great raiders. 1 of them is leaving in February, cause of university in another country.

    These 5 people (+me), is performing decent.
    The

    Back to Cataclysm. We stepped up big time in Firelands, killing 6/7 HC pre 15% nerf, and Ragnaros before p4 nerf (4.3).

    In DS I had to leave after 5/8 HC, because of going to the military, yet the guild managed 8/8 HC aswell just fine.

    Walking into MoP, I found that my old guild (I was gone for a while), had become VERY elitist. I am very also elitist by nature, but it felt to much for me, and I wanted to play with the 5 people mentioned (2 of them quit just after 8/8 HC, because of the nature of the guild).

    So we went Alliance, because we liked that more (However the Alliance side is less populated, 1 Horde to 0,3 Alliance), and started a new guild in MoP. Most of the members is people I've met over the years in WoW, always been very friendly, but I haven't played that much with them before.

    It went very slow to start, as expected. Recently, I felt like it have been going to slow. I have really worked my ass up to help people, optimize them, assist, being friendly. I even did LFR on some of their chars, fixing some enchants for them etc, learned how they should play their class and told them so etc.

    But, it feels, that no matter what effort I put in (To much tbh), nothing helps.

    A good example, is from this log:
    Only 3 of the raiders I've always raided with is in this log. 1 died in transition before burn, 1 of them being DPS OS (And being second on dmg, hes normally healing), and the last being the paladin tank.
    I also know that locks (Which is what I play), is great on this fight, but:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7544&e=8071

    I am slightly overgearing some of them, but not by a whole lot. But it stills seems over the top.

    Also people are always dying/making random mistakes, during the raids. I might not be the best raid leader, but I have been leading a few raids over the years, and no matter how many things I call out, it seems like it does not help.

    Our progress is in my opnion, painfully slow 6/6+2/6.

    Ranking our people in my opinion (12 people in roster):
    4 being great.
    3 being decent.
    4. being ok, but no great numbers and often dying. (Often not reading up etc).
    2. being meh, bad numbers, often dying. Often reading up, but they don't seem to get a clue about tacs.

    1. What should I do, in terms of keeping/removing members?
    2. It is very hard to recruit members, because of the low population of our realm? Going horde again (Bigger population, + knowing more people might help, but yeah, we like being Alliance.
    3. These 6 mates, which I want to play with, makes it very hard to join another guild. What to do, if thats the only option?
    4. It seems like our vision what the guild should be, is very different. Some seem to like this, some seem to dislike it, some seem to be "ok" with it, but wouldn't mind people shaping up.
    5. Any advice, in terms of handling my situation would be awesome.

    Thanks for reading the wall, say if you have any questions, Il be specific.
    Last edited by Faylo; 2012-11-16 at 02:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Everyone who does not miss Vanilla has no heart. Whoever wishes it back has no brain.

  2. #2
    Mechagnome
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    You call 6/6+2/6 slow? I'd say it's at least above average. Just look at wowprogress and see how many guilds have killed those bosses. But since you don't seem content being average, I think you only have one option - kick the bads and recruit good players. If your guild is attractive enough, you will be able to find good people from other servers looking to transfer as well.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Xami View Post
    You call 6/6+2/6 slow? I'd say it's at least above average. Just look at wowprogress and see how many guilds have killed those bosses. But since you don't seem content being average, I think you only have one option - kick the bads and recruit good players. If your guild is attractive enough, you will be able to find good people from other servers looking to transfer as well.
    Not for the average player, but I don't think I am the best out there or anything, but I consider myself and my friends to be well above average, and thus want to have some decent progress Also, because we are wiping on stuff, I find really easy to execute.
    Main: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...l%C3%A8/simple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Everyone who does not miss Vanilla has no heart. Whoever wishes it back has no brain.

  4. #4
    The Patient Gaudaloht's Avatar
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    Just have fun with your friends, dont push it too far, i did it once as raid leader and i lost my group
    we were raiding since the begining of wotlk to the end of cata
    Like i said, just have fun with them, enjoy the good moments after all you're not going for any world first

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaudaloht View Post
    Just have fun with your friends, dont push it too far, i did it once as raid leader and i lost my group
    we were raiding since the begining of wotlk to the end of cata
    Like i said, just have fun with them, enjoy the good moments after all you're not going for any world first
    Sadly, I am not satisfied with that. I don't go for world first, and it is not about ranking. It is not even about comparing myself to others.

    Its because, me (and my friends) think this is going to slow. Because it becomes boring, to do the same easy stuff, and anoying to wipe countless of times, to things that are easy to execute.

    It must to be fair, to wanting a balanced raid lvl, in the guild
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Everyone who does not miss Vanilla has no heart. Whoever wishes it back has no brain.

  6. #6
    I am actually having this problem myself at the moment, all the advice I would have to give would be accept the progress as it stands and just have fun raiding. Im on a low pop server myself and there's really no hope in recruitment most of the above average players already have groups and it seems to me because of the low pop those guilds/groups are very tight knit and rarely need even 1 recruit let alone 3 for your friends aswell.

  7. #7
    The Patient
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    Well I'd say this... Yours is a new guild and it just takes time to get a solid core and synergy in the raid team. You just have to decide if the pain is worth the gain or not :P

    A little encouragement tho, with each kill you've made your world rank is getting substantially better:

    http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...dom+Latin+Word

    While the ranks themselves are not important, the trend is. You can read that as a measure of your raid team getting better I'd say you haven't yet hit your "plateau" - that is, things will probably keep on improving for a while. Not without work but still.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Summerwind View Post
    Well I'd say this... Yours is a new guild and it just takes time to get a solid core and synergy in the raid team. You just have to decide if the pain is worth the gain or not :P

    A little encouragement tho, with each kill you've made your world rank is getting substantially better:

    http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...dom+Latin+Word

    While the ranks themselves are not important, the trend is. You can read that as a measure of your raid team getting better I'd say you haven't yet hit your "plateau" - that is, things will probably keep on improving for a while. Not without work but still.
    Thanks, for the encouragement.

    My issue is, that even tho this is the case - I don't feel all of our raiders are good enough. If 5 persons in a 10 man raids pull more than 60% of the weight, then there is something wrong.

    Another issue is, that the only reason some of the members got this good, is because I keep telling them when to do what, as their class. This should be themselves figuring this out, not me.
    Main: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...l%C3%A8/simple
    Old Main: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Needle/simple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Everyone who does not miss Vanilla has no heart. Whoever wishes it back has no brain.

  9. #9
    Sorry if I've missed it, but I don't think you said why you're staying on your current server? If you want to stay alliance then moving the guild to a much more competitive alliance server would surely help, and it's cheaper than changing back to the faction you don't want to be. Crap servers suck, and you're really unlikely to get someone to move to a bad realm to join a guild that's not doing heroic modes. I understand your frustration, but I also understand why people aren't going to move server to join you - I think you should seriously consider moving server to find them.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by maladicta View Post
    Sorry if I've missed it, but I don't think you said why you're staying on your current server? If you want to stay alliance then moving the guild to a much more competitive alliance server would surely help, and it's cheaper than changing back to the faction you don't want to be. Crap servers suck, and you're really unlikely to get someone to move to a bad realm to join a guild that's not doing heroic modes. I understand your frustration, but I also understand why people aren't going to move server to join you - I think you should seriously consider moving server to find them.
    It is indeed a option. We was in Sylvanas at the start of the expansion, for the exact reasons you listed, but took a free migration off (To our old server, lol), because of the insane que times.

    The server we are on (Frostwhisper), is high on WoL atm mostly duo to horde side.
    Main: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...l%C3%A8/simple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Everyone who does not miss Vanilla has no heart. Whoever wishes it back has no brain.

  11. #11
    Thanks for all the advice so far guys, keep it comming!

  12. #12
    as a guild leader, this is going to sound harsh maybe, but I have to get it out of my system.

    Your whole post you keep saying that you are so much better than the other players. let's look at a few quotes:

    " Only 3 of them match my skill lvl"
    " I even did LFR on some of their chars" (you make it sound like it's some huge sacrifice)
    "I am slightly overgearing some of them, but not by a whole lot. But it stills seems over the top."

    Look, if you want to help your guild, stop thinking you are better than them. Start thinking you are all parts of the raid that kill a boss. Yea, maybe you are better, but constanatly saying that will just piss of people.


    As has been said, your progress isn't that bad by any stretch. Give it some time, and even though it sounds stupid, take the newer players and the ones that die at tactics on a run through some cataclysm glory of the X mount runs. The pressure there isn't that high, and you can learn the basics of watching out for bad shit everywhere.
    It's the way my guilds do it, and how we constantly pushed current content. No, not in a "We got a glory of the X in current content" kinda way, but we were never far behind.

  13. #13
    Kinda agree with Lanerios.

    Putting up a log on the internet pointing out how bad they are isn't going to help that's for sure. Pretty certain they'll not be keen to work with you after that It means you move as a group, kick em, or relax.

    You know ofc we all went to look at how the raid went overall, and what happened to you :P

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by lanerios View Post
    as a guild leader, this is going to sound harsh maybe, but I have to get it out of my system.

    Your whole post you keep saying that you are so much better than the other players. let's look at a few quotes:

    " Only 3 of them match my skill lvl"
    " I even did LFR on some of their chars" (you make it sound like it's some huge sacrifice)
    "I am slightly overgearing some of them, but not by a whole lot. But it stills seems over the top."

    Look, if you want to help your guild, stop thinking you are better than them. Start thinking you are all parts of the raid that kill a boss. Yea, maybe you are better, but constanatly saying that will just piss of people.


    As has been said, your progress isn't that bad by any stretch. Give it some time, and even though it sounds stupid, take the newer players and the ones that die at tactics on a run through some cataclysm glory of the X mount runs. The pressure there isn't that high, and you can learn the basics of watching out for bad shit everywhere.
    It's the way my guilds do it, and how we constantly pushed current content. No, not in a "We got a glory of the X in current content" kinda way, but we were never far behind.
    While you are slightly right, you are using more time in your post, to critize me, instead of telling me how to execute my situasion. I editted my post, because I agree that I came out slightly arrogant, in terms of the skill lvl.

    It is not that using 1 hour to do an LFR on their character, is a huge sacrifice. But, it is something I believe, THEY should do. Not me, as I already use more time than them, working out tactics, and so forth.

    The slightly overgearing comment, is because - If you looked at the log, the dps difference is huge.

    I think its great that how you do it, but I don't want to play with people, who I have to learn them how to play.
    I want to play with people, who already know how to play. That is the main difference between our guilds, and I believe that is totally up to the individually guild.

    I am mostly looking for advice how to deal with the situasion, not to cut them so slack. I believe I already did this.
    I want to get the best out of the situasion for everyone, but I realise that not everyone will be happy in the solution.

    And the solution is not to negate me or my officers vision for the guild.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Everyone who does not miss Vanilla has no heart. Whoever wishes it back has no brain.

  15. #15
    Did you start on hardmodes yet?
    From my own experience I tend to slack off when I am doing too much 'easy' content. Maybe if you start on MSV hardmodes they will wake up and work more on maximizing their characters and output.

    And transfering to another realm with higher alliance population, which has already been said, might help. You can recruit more players and let them compete for raidspots.
    I've been there. We were on a low populated realm, we wanted to kick people but we simply couldn't. In the end the frustration killed our guild (this was also my own fault as guild/raidleader). This was very unfortunate because at least half our guild was really good and could have finished all content during TBC but we broke up when we were on Teron Gorefiend, the boss that weeds out the idiots from the capable players. You can't carry players through the ghost/construct phase.

    Good luck.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 03:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Faylo View Post

    The slightly overgearing comment, is because - If you looked at the log, the dps difference is huge.
    This is simply because that's how it is. The differences in dps are huge at the moment. Because of gear and class.
    For example the AoE on Elegon adds by DK's is much higher than the AoE of a shadow priest.

    I think its great that how you do it, but I don't want to play with people, who I have to learn them how to play.
    I want to play with people, who already know how to play. That is the main difference between our guilds, and I believe that is totally up to the individually guild.
    The only way to achieve that is to recruit other people and kick the ones you don't want to play with. And when you recruit make very clear what you expect of them.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 03:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Miryhellboy View Post
    Kinda agree with Lanerios.

    Putting up a log on the internet pointing out how bad they are isn't going to help that's for sure. Pretty certain they'll not be keen to work with you after that It means you move as a group, kick em, or relax.

    You know ofc we all went to look at how the raid went overall, and what happened to you :P
    Well, you should post logs on your forum but not point out what people did wrong. At least not individual or it has to be really bad then you could point it out but in a friendly constructive way.
    Last edited by Gilian; 2012-11-16 at 02:59 PM.

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