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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Would you rather have the Meat Packing conditions outlined in Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle"? The very thing that started labor unions in the first place?
    The FDA would take care of food conditions.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    The FDA would take care of food conditions.
    ...and what about the condition of the human beings behind them?
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    ...and what about the condition of the human beings behind them?
    I'm not sure why that would be the FDA's problem. OSHA usually handles that stuff.

  4. #184
    Warchief IRunSoFarAway's Avatar
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    I'm sure someone is just gonna buy the company and continue to make them...

    Either way, doesn't affect me, I don't eat pig food, thankfully.
    Waaaaah this guy was mean to me! Waaaaaaaaah!

    I'm mean because you're stupid.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Companies can't do that... not without approval from somewhere. I'm not sure how their pension is structured but I DO know that if they were paying money from their checks into the fund, there had to be approval from someone on THEIR side of the bargaining table.
    That really depends on how the funds were structured. Also, this. It's possible we just haven't seen a lawsuit yet.

    It's possible they did fuck up. It's equally possible that a nation that's sick of producing fat kids began curtailing hostess cake purchases.
    Except that snack food sales are growing in this country.

    As I said, it always sucks when you have to take a pay cut. If the company can't afford to keep you on, though... something has to give.
    That doesn't mean that wages aren't cut or kept low simply because of greed, nor does that mean that complaints about your wages being cut are just whining.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  6. #186
    Has it been mentioned already that the CEO reportedly was given a 300 percent raise at about the same time they filed for bankruptcy?

    I'd say that's a legitimate thing to "whine" about if you're one of the bakers being asked to take a pay cut from $34k to $25k in 5 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    Man, there really should have been an Xzibit cameo in Inception.

  7. #187
    Don't even think it.



    nobody messes with my twinkie.

    sorry but it's the first thing that poped in my mind when i heard about the company going under. While yes the company has been missmanaged if they were trying to fix things and get it runing right then yes it really hurts that the union would rather strike and put all these people out of work than try find a way of fixing things with the company.

    Sad thing is. well the only ones who suffer atleast the most are the ones that are members of that uninion. most of the suits and higher ups probably do have a plush out and plenty of money to hold them out. but the average worker now lives from paycheck to paycheck. how really is the union helping them now?
    Last edited by Arteous; 2012-11-19 at 08:01 AM.

  8. #188
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Companies can't do that... not without approval from somewhere. I'm not sure how their pension is structured but I DO know that if they were paying money from their checks into the fund, there had to be approval from someone on THEIR side of the bargaining table.
    You're confusing "can't" with "shouldn't". It's a common mistake. A lot of people can and will do something they're not supposed to, and short of sprouting wings and flying, there's very little a person or company "can't" do.

    It's possible they did fuck up. It's equally possible that a nation that's sick of producing fat kids began curtailing hostess cake purchases.
    I suspect it's a little of all of the above, it sounds like they've been in and out of bankruptcy court for several years now, clearly the company was not healthy. It is likely mismanagement, combined with a narrowing market and a tightening economy, I'm certain really high wages for the union didn't help, but if a company is healthy, workers can push for a better share for themselves. At one time, their wages might not have been too much.

    As I said, it always sucks when you have to take a pay cut. If the company can't afford to keep you on, though... something has to give.
    Pay cuts, unlike pay raises, can lead down a slippery slope. If Hostess was barely getting by over the past several years, I doubt a minor pay-cut would have significantly increased their chances of success.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    Sometimes life gives you lemons, other times life gives you boobies. Life is always better with more boobies.
    Blizzard removed my subscription from WoD's features, it'll be added sometime later.
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    That really depends on how the funds were structured. Also, this. It's possible we just haven't seen a lawsuit yet.
    Only time will tell on that one.

    Except that snack food sales are growing in this country.
    Maybe their labor costs got too high, then?

    That doesn't mean that wages aren't cut or kept low simply because of greed, nor does that mean that complaints about your wages being cut are just whining.
    I didn't say complaints over wages were whining. It is ignorant to claim pension money was stolen from you when it was borrowed, though.

    The bankruptcy court ruled it a debt. If that isn't legitimizing it I'm not sure what is.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    I didn't say complaints over wages were whining. It is ignorant to claim pension money was stolen from you when it was borrowed, though.

    The bankruptcy court ruled it a debt. If that isn't legitimizing it I'm not sure what is.
    Courts can be wrong. From the article you linked, the guy wasn't asked by the company if it was OK that they used that money, they were simply notified. The only way I can see this not being outright theft is if the pension fund was structured so that the employees paid into a fund that was to be invested for their retirement and the justification for the company taking it was that their retirement would be in jeopardy without their having jobs. Obfuscating language and such could also have been used to get people to pay into something that they didn't understand.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  11. #191
    Stood in the Fire Lockndrop's Avatar
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    Screw twinkies. I want my SnoBalls. Coconut marshmellow and chocolatecake q.q

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Courts can be wrong. From the article you linked, the guy wasn't asked by the company if it was OK that they used that money, they were simply notified. The only way I can see this not being outright theft is if the pension fund was structured so that the employees paid into a fund that was to be invested for their retirement and the justification for the company taking it was that their retirement would be in jeopardy without their having jobs. Obfuscating language and such could also have been used to get people to pay into something that they didn't understand.
    I'm fully aware he, personally, wasn't notified of the change (except by the company). Someone on his side knew, though (assuming this wasn't corporate theft, which no one has any reason to allege at this point). Perhaps the union (who negotiates his contract) allowed it in because they had no alternative?

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    I'm fully aware he, personally, wasn't notified of the change (except by the company). Someone on his side knew, though (assuming this wasn't corporate theft, which no one has any reason to allege at this point). Perhaps the union (who negotiates his contract) allowed it in because they had no alternative?
    He also says that both he and the union were notified at the same time in the same manner.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    He also says that both he and the union were notified at the same time in the same manner.
    I was referring to the possibility that such a clause may have been in the contract that permitted them to do so.

    This went on for over a year. Pretty sure the union would have (or should have) taken action long before this.

  15. #195
    Mechagnome Helryx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lockndrop View Post
    Screw twinkies. I want my SnoBalls. Coconut marshmellow and chocolatecake q.q
    The only thing with coconuts that I like. ;_;7

  16. #196
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    Has it been mentioned already that the CEO reportedly was given a 300 percent raise at about the same time they filed for bankruptcy?

    I'd say that's a legitimate thing to "whine" about if you're one of the bakers being asked to take a pay cut from $34k to $25k in 5 years.
    Lol just read that and came here to see if it was mentioned. The CEO and 9 other executives received massive raises earlier this year even as the company was falling apart. Got to love how these corporations function. Fuck the employees doing the work by shifting more money to the folks responsible for the failing of the company.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    ...and what about the condition of the human beings behind them?
    The unions did a lot of good work in leading reform. Now that we're reformed though, like a lot of other things they tend to become self-justifying. They get you more money, then charge you dues. Collective bargaining power is nice and all, but it has it's place and time. I wonder what the folks in the Bakers Union were making for what, semi-skilled labor at best? But I don't know, maybe they weren't making that much and the pay cut would have been very bad. Probably not as bad as the 100% pay cut they got.

    And again, this company was more than Twinkies, it was the #2 bread maker in the country. I happen to like Natures Made bread and some of the other brands they carried (I forget the name of the jewish rye), I'm not sure if they made them also or just sold them.

  18. #198
    Pandaren Monk Redpanda's Avatar
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    I remember when I was a kid on fridays when my dad would pick me up from school he would stop at the last gas station on the way home then he would stop at the beach and me and him would sit on a bench and Id have one he would have one and we would chill for 30 mins or so before we would go home. Im gonna have a twinkie on my way home from work now. :>

  19. #199
    Hostess management tried to financially engineer their way back to profitability after the 2004 bankruptcy by paying consulting firms and investment banks to restructure their liabilities, only to add to those liabilities in the form of more loans and consulting fees. They did this instead of changing their product line and sales strategies, which have been obsolete for decades. Then along comes the hedge funds, promising to bail them out if they gut employee compensation, and what did they do? Manipulated bankruptcy compensation rules, gave themselves raises, and blamed the unions.

    These are the same people who blamed the unions a week ago for closing three bakeries in St. Louis, Seattle, and Cincinnati when it they already planned, months ago, to close 9 bakeries as a result of its restructuring and 3 bakeries when they sold the Merita Breads division. This is all documented in the filings, and people still buy their bullshit?

    Of course they do. They're rich assholes in suits. Hell, Greg Rayburn, who tripled his own salary as the company was seeking rescue, could run for President and get 48% of the vote.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    The FDA would take care of food conditions.
    The people who want to get rid of unions, also want to get rid of other government over sight agencies like the FDA.
    Unions have a place in business. proper regulation is also needed to ensure good high quality safe products.
    simply thinking that companies will do so because the free market wills it is living a lie.
    History has shown that Free markets have no regard for consumer safety. the seat belt was fought tooth and nail
    by the auto industry. the recent spinal meningitis deaths of 33 people is due to lack of oversight and proper quality control measures.
    That sort of stuff is cheaper in the short run but more expensive in the long run, only if something happens and the owner ship was incompetent or greedy.
    this is why we need organization like the FDA, OSHA and unions.

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