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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    That really depends on how the funds were structured. Also, this. It's possible we just haven't seen a lawsuit yet.
    Only time will tell on that one.

    Except that snack food sales are growing in this country.
    Maybe their labor costs got too high, then?

    That doesn't mean that wages aren't cut or kept low simply because of greed, nor does that mean that complaints about your wages being cut are just whining.
    I didn't say complaints over wages were whining. It is ignorant to claim pension money was stolen from you when it was borrowed, though.

    The bankruptcy court ruled it a debt. If that isn't legitimizing it I'm not sure what is.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    I didn't say complaints over wages were whining. It is ignorant to claim pension money was stolen from you when it was borrowed, though.

    The bankruptcy court ruled it a debt. If that isn't legitimizing it I'm not sure what is.
    Courts can be wrong. From the article you linked, the guy wasn't asked by the company if it was OK that they used that money, they were simply notified. The only way I can see this not being outright theft is if the pension fund was structured so that the employees paid into a fund that was to be invested for their retirement and the justification for the company taking it was that their retirement would be in jeopardy without their having jobs. Obfuscating language and such could also have been used to get people to pay into something that they didn't understand.

  3. #183
    Screw twinkies. I want my SnoBalls. Coconut marshmellow and chocolatecake q.q

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Courts can be wrong. From the article you linked, the guy wasn't asked by the company if it was OK that they used that money, they were simply notified. The only way I can see this not being outright theft is if the pension fund was structured so that the employees paid into a fund that was to be invested for their retirement and the justification for the company taking it was that their retirement would be in jeopardy without their having jobs. Obfuscating language and such could also have been used to get people to pay into something that they didn't understand.
    I'm fully aware he, personally, wasn't notified of the change (except by the company). Someone on his side knew, though (assuming this wasn't corporate theft, which no one has any reason to allege at this point). Perhaps the union (who negotiates his contract) allowed it in because they had no alternative?

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    I'm fully aware he, personally, wasn't notified of the change (except by the company). Someone on his side knew, though (assuming this wasn't corporate theft, which no one has any reason to allege at this point). Perhaps the union (who negotiates his contract) allowed it in because they had no alternative?
    He also says that both he and the union were notified at the same time in the same manner.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    He also says that both he and the union were notified at the same time in the same manner.
    I was referring to the possibility that such a clause may have been in the contract that permitted them to do so.

    This went on for over a year. Pretty sure the union would have (or should have) taken action long before this.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Lockndrop View Post
    Screw twinkies. I want my SnoBalls. Coconut marshmellow and chocolatecake q.q
    The only thing with coconuts that I like. ;_;7

  8. #188
    Old God conscript's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chonogo View Post
    Has it been mentioned already that the CEO reportedly was given a 300 percent raise at about the same time they filed for bankruptcy?

    I'd say that's a legitimate thing to "whine" about if you're one of the bakers being asked to take a pay cut from $34k to $25k in 5 years.
    Lol just read that and came here to see if it was mentioned. The CEO and 9 other executives received massive raises earlier this year even as the company was falling apart. Got to love how these corporations function. Fuck the employees doing the work by shifting more money to the folks responsible for the failing of the company.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    ...and what about the condition of the human beings behind them?
    The unions did a lot of good work in leading reform. Now that we're reformed though, like a lot of other things they tend to become self-justifying. They get you more money, then charge you dues. Collective bargaining power is nice and all, but it has it's place and time. I wonder what the folks in the Bakers Union were making for what, semi-skilled labor at best? But I don't know, maybe they weren't making that much and the pay cut would have been very bad. Probably not as bad as the 100% pay cut they got.

    And again, this company was more than Twinkies, it was the #2 bread maker in the country. I happen to like Natures Made bread and some of the other brands they carried (I forget the name of the jewish rye), I'm not sure if they made them also or just sold them.

  10. #190
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    I remember when I was a kid on fridays when my dad would pick me up from school he would stop at the last gas station on the way home then he would stop at the beach and me and him would sit on a bench and Id have one he would have one and we would chill for 30 mins or so before we would go home. Im gonna have a twinkie on my way home from work now. :>

  11. #191
    Hostess management tried to financially engineer their way back to profitability after the 2004 bankruptcy by paying consulting firms and investment banks to restructure their liabilities, only to add to those liabilities in the form of more loans and consulting fees. They did this instead of changing their product line and sales strategies, which have been obsolete for decades. Then along comes the hedge funds, promising to bail them out if they gut employee compensation, and what did they do? Manipulated bankruptcy compensation rules, gave themselves raises, and blamed the unions.

    These are the same people who blamed the unions a week ago for closing three bakeries in St. Louis, Seattle, and Cincinnati when it they already planned, months ago, to close 9 bakeries as a result of its restructuring and 3 bakeries when they sold the Merita Breads division. This is all documented in the filings, and people still buy their bullshit?

    Of course they do. They're rich assholes in suits. Hell, Greg Rayburn, who tripled his own salary as the company was seeking rescue, could run for President and get 48% of the vote.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    The FDA would take care of food conditions.
    The people who want to get rid of unions, also want to get rid of other government over sight agencies like the FDA.
    Unions have a place in business. proper regulation is also needed to ensure good high quality safe products.
    simply thinking that companies will do so because the free market wills it is living a lie.
    History has shown that Free markets have no regard for consumer safety. the seat belt was fought tooth and nail
    by the auto industry. the recent spinal meningitis deaths of 33 people is due to lack of oversight and proper quality control measures.
    That sort of stuff is cheaper in the short run but more expensive in the long run, only if something happens and the owner ship was incompetent or greedy.
    this is why we need organization like the FDA, OSHA and unions.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by tombstoner139 View Post
    The people who want to get rid of unions, also want to get rid of other government over sight agencies like the FDA.
    Unions have a place in business. proper regulation is also needed to ensure good high quality safe products.
    simply thinking that companies will do so because the free market wills it is living a lie.
    History has shown that Free markets have no regard for consumer safety. the seat belt was fought tooth and nail
    by the auto industry. the recent spinal meningitis deaths of 33 people is due to lack of oversight and proper quality control measures.
    That sort of stuff is cheaper in the short run but more expensive in the long run, only if something happens and the owner ship was incompetent or greedy.
    this is why we need organization like the FDA, OSHA and unions.
    You can argue for the necessity of the FDA and OSHA if that's what you wish.

    Unions are another story entirely. I can think of no valid reason for their continued existence in their form right now.

    That is to say, I don't have a problem with employees' right to collective representation, but the idea that an employer should be allowed to be hamstrung by a union in the form of a closed shop is bullshit.

    Right to work is the way to go.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Creamy Flames View Post
    Today's first world problem: Some candy brand is going bankrupt.

    In other news, 5000 more children starved to death today.
    And some day we'll all remember that "someone else has it worse" doesn't mean that their problems are irrelevant.

    How about this: 18,000 people are out of a job. That good enough for ya mate?


    Anyway, OP, twinkies aren't going anywhere. Some other food company (probably Kraft) will buy them and they'll go back into production like nothing ever changed.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 01:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Daveon View Post
    If this was meant as a Marie Antoinette reference, then it's one of the best humorous historical references I've seen on this forum!
    The best part, of course, being that Marie Antoinette never, ever said that.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    You can argue for the necessity of the FDA and OSHA if that's what you wish.

    Unions are another story entirely. I can think of no valid reason for their continued existence in their form right now.
    How about the abuse that WalMart workers get?
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    How about the abuse that WalMart workers get?
    Walmart maintains one of the highest turnover rates of employees in the world. Isn't it obvious that their employees don't like how they're treated and, thus, refuse to work for them?

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    How about the abuse that WalMart workers get?
    If WalMart employees are being abused, why aren't the unions stopping it?

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by jaimelannister View Post
    If WalMart employees are being abused, why aren't the unions stopping it?
    No such thing as unions in Walmart.

  19. #199
    Old God conscript's Avatar
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    They did it you guys! The baker's union and Hostess are going to mediation to try and work out their differences to save the company. Hopefully they can get this sorted, Hostess stops trying to push to pay their enormous CEO bonuses despite nearly liquidating this week, and those 18,000 jobs can be saved.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 03:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by jaimelannister View Post
    If WalMart employees are being abused, why aren't the unions stopping it?
    Because like Target, Wal-Mart does not take kindly to talks of unionization. I don't know if they go as far as Target, who will flat out fire you for mentioning unions, but there is a reason there hasn't been a successful union movement at the store yet.
    Last edited by conscript; 2012-11-19 at 08:13 PM.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by conscript View Post
    They did it you guys! The baker's union and Hostess are going to mediation to try and work out their differences to save the company. Hopefully they can get this sorted, Hostess stops trying to push to pay their enormous CEO bonuses despite nearly liquidating this week, and those 18,000 jobs can be saved.
    It's laughable that companies would pay bonuses when a company declares bankruptcy.

    I think it's probably in the workers' best interests if the company DOES liquidate. That means some other bakery will pick up the Hostess (or at least Twinkie) bran name(s). If management is that incompetent then emerging from another bankruptcy won't save shit.

    Because like Target, Wal-Mart does not take kindly to talks of unionization. I don't know if they go as far as Target, who will flat out fire you for mentioning unions, but there is a reason there hasn't been a successful union movement at the store yet.
    Walmart has gone so far as to shut down entire stores when unionization was imminent.

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