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  1. #341
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morogoth View Post
    This is exactly the question. Iran is a developped country with 80 millions people. They are educated, it's not like Afganistan. You cannot control Persia, even with the wishful thinking of the US people.
    We're just going to use cruise missiles and B2s with burrowing munitions.
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  2. #342
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnevis View Post
    If it happened that way you're probably right. That's why it's such a convincing myth. Read what Eisenhower, MacArthur, and Nimitz said about it. Not really interested in derailing the thread, but know that your opinion, though it is widespread, isn't really as much a fact as you think. USSR had just joined in, and there's very good reason to believe we wouldn't have had to eventually invade, and even if we had, we had months to decide. Instead, Truman made the call to drop the bomb the first day we could.
    Consider, however, what actually happened... hundreds of thousands of people die in Fire bombing raids on Japan (more than were killed with the initial atomic explosions,) 66 cities are destroyed. Japan doesn't surrender. Japan is threatened with complete and utter destruction if they don't surrender. They don't surrender. First Nuclear bomb is dropped. Japan doesn't surrender. Second Nuclear bomb is dropped. Japan surrenders... after a tie-breaking vote cast by the emperor. Two atomic bombs, and they were still split 50/50 on the decision to surrender.

    Something tells me they "weren't about to cave."

    I suppose one could attempt and say "well, seeing Russia enter the war against them would have cinched it..." While this is speculation on my part, I'm at a loss as to why tacking another country striking imperviously at Japan on would have been "that much more of a threat" than the unreciprocatable strikes they were already suffering.


    But again, this is somewhat off topic... though it is indeed relevant to note that the single time Nuclear weapons have been used for War, by the United States, they were used in a time of total war (and indeed, when their full capabilities were not understood,) and not as a blind-side "first strike."
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2012-11-17 at 02:19 AM.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  3. #343
    I support Iran. They are the good side this time.

  4. #344
    Stood in the Fire stuartj1992's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by undercovergnome View Post
    they may be religious nuts, but they arent stupid
    Quote Originally Posted by undercovergnome View Post
    ...religious nuts...they arent stupid
    Quite the contradiction you got there.

  5. #345
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Consider, however, what actually happened... hundreds of thousands of people die in Fire bombing raids on Japan (more than were killed with the initial atomic explosions,) 66 cities are destroyed. Japan doesn't surrender. Japan is threatened with complete and utter destruction if they don't surrender. They don't surrender. First Nuclear bomb is dropped. Japan doesn't surrender. Second Nuclear bomb is dropped. Japan surrenders... after a tie-breaking vote cast by the emperor. Two atomic bombs, and they were still split 50/50 on the decision to surrender.

    Something tells me they "weren't about to cave."

    But again, this is "off topic."
    There's really no way to say what would've happened if history had gone differently. On one hand there may have been the mother of all island hopping campaigns. On the other, the arrival of the two armies that had just crushed the Germans on Japanese soil might have been cause enough to push back from the table and call it a day.
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  6. #346
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    There's really no way to say what would've happened if history had gone differently. On one hand there may have been the mother of all island hopping campaigns. On the other, the arrival of the two armies that had just crushed the Germans on Japanese soil might have been cause enough to push back from the table and call it a day.
    I edited my post to address that. If Japan was seemingly willing to burn to the ground fighting against the US in an inevitable loss, would it have been that much different if Russia had also jumped in?
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2012-11-17 at 02:21 AM.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  7. #347
    Pandaren Monk Mnevis's Avatar
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    @Kalredar: Well, your telling of the story needs some asterisks. They were beaten, our generals knew it, they knew it, but they were not accepting our terms.

    Norman Cousins was a consultant to General MacArthur during the American occupation of Japan. Cousins writes of his conversations with MacArthur, "MacArthur's views about the decision to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were starkly different from what the general public supposed." He continues, "When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor."

    Norman Cousins, The Pathology of Power, pg. 65, 70-71.

  8. #348
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I edited my post to address that. If Japan was seemingly willing to burn to the ground fighting against the US in an inevitable loss, would it have been that much different if Russia had also jumped in?
    But the reality is that they weren't willing to fight until the country was in ashes. How do we know this? Because they surrendered when given a single face saving concession. That's the important distinction. They didn't surrender because of the bombs, but because we changed the terms of surrender.
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  9. #349
    The Insane GennGreymane's Avatar
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    how? by spinning the turbines more? (lol)

    but for real they know they would be destroyed if they used nukes

    ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Praise REGGIE! MY BODY IS READY༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

  10. #350
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    how? by spinning the turbines more? (lol)

    but for real they know they would be destroyed if they used nukes
    They bought an antivirus and got rid of stuxnet.
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  11. #351
    The Insane GennGreymane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    They bought an antivirus and got rid of stuxnet.
    we can have another virus soon. They are having a hard enough time enriching what they have..... double? good luck

    ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Praise REGGIE! MY BODY IS READY༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by RICH1471 View Post
    Many other dangerous countries have nukes, why not Iran?
    All nukes that exist now were made before the cold war. Why should Pakistan dismantle their nukes cus some other country views Pakistan as dangerous?

    If Iran makes nukes then that means it's alight for everyone to make nukes and then we end up back in the Cold War era. Nukes are serious, they could end all life. No one should be supporting the creation of them.

    I personally don't think Iran are making nukes and they never said they were.

  13. #353
    Legendary! Evil Inside's Avatar
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    Am I the only one that finds it concerning that US is trying stop Iran acquiring nukes when they nor anyone else even know how many nukes Israel has. We all know they love to play the victim, and when that doesnt work they get big bro USA involved in their interests.
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  14. #354
    Look if Israel, North Korea and Pakistan can get the bomb, and get away with it (yes Pakistan did get a slap on the cheek but was soon back in the "community" and North Korea wandering on as usual) have create a very strong predicates how to treat bomb making countries.

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