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  1. #1

    [Prot] Replacing Cleave with Whirlwind

    Judging from Raid / Dungeon content so far and comparing with other tanks aswell as reading on multiple forums it would seem that Warrior AoE Threat is somewhat low.
    Even with the homogenization of tanks where most of our abilities equal those if other tanks it feels as if we're still behind.

    One proposition would be to remove the lackluster 2-Target cleave and give all three warrior specs whirlwind. Or give back the MoP beta 5 target Cleave.

    Also wtb the old Vengance transferring Vigilance, theres just no way to pick up stuff from a Vengance stacked Tank.

    I know this only concerns 5 mans and Trash-Pulls but for me at least who is tanking against a feral druid it would be a welcomed change.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Intervene said tank 3 seconds before you need to taunt. Voila, Vengeance.

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire Gum's Avatar
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    Id say just make cleave a propor cleave - Cleaving everything infront of you. Atm i barely even consider using it, cus the damage compared to HS isnt anything to really consider. Even when dealing with multiple adds.

    WW doesnt fit the prot style, but a frontal conelike cleave with endless targets, certainly does. Almost swipe like - Id say thats soemthing we most certainly could use..


    Cleave: A sweeping attack that strikes the target and an additional nearby target, dealing 82% weapon damage.

    Use when you have more Rage than you can spend.
    When specialized in Protection, cleave hits all targets within 5 yards of the target.

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Dannyl's Avatar
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    Don't think I would like whirlwind per say. Cleave is fine as it is but I would like to see it being able to hit additional targets; five is probably overkill but three, like we had with the glyph, back in Cata would be fine. Yes, other classes have had their AoE much more easier and effective than warriors for a long time but I think that is an inherent part of the class; the necessity to tab target a lot.

    And it isn't like there aren't good options available to make our AoE better. It's just that, to be effective, our AoE needs to have a lot of components in it. Rather, I would maybe like to see some of those components removed and made more effective, like thunderclap for instance.

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  5. #5
    What they did with revenge couldn't they just do with cleave?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Gum View Post
    Id say just make cleave a propor cleave - Cleaving everything infront of you. Atm i barely even consider using it, cus the damage compared to HS isnt anything to really consider. Even when dealing with multiple adds.

    WW doesnt fit the prot style, but a frontal conelike cleave with endless targets, certainly does. Almost swipe like - Id say thats soemthing we most certainly could use..


    Cleave: A sweeping attack that strikes the target and an additional nearby target, dealing 82% weapon damage.

    Use when you have more Rage than you can spend.
    When specialized in Protection, cleave hits all targets within 5 yards of the target.
    Swipe has been a 360 degree AoE since some time during WotLK (patch 3.1 according to google.)

  7. #7
    They definitely overdid the nerfs to prot AoE threat.. It's not like it's impossible to generate it, but it's considerably worse than other tanks right now. A trigger-happy DPS with a good AoE spec and you might have some issues as a prot warrior picking up a lot of mobs. You need to do a lot more than other tanks is basically what i'm saying since deep wounds is a joke, revenge is a joke where you need to frenetically alt tab for it to actually work on the additional targets. Shockwave is basically the only decent AoE threat ability outside of heroic leap for snapthreat and you shouldn't have to heroic leap all over the place where as a monk or a DK can spam one ability. Obviously with any kind of vengenace up it's not a problem, but the moment before can be a pain in the butt.

  8. #8
    I think they should bring back the idea that Thunderclap leaves a circle on the floor similar to DnD and Consecrate. It allows us to put down the aoe in a way that all adds running into it go to you, rather than having to time our AoEs with the approaching mobs carefully.
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  9. #9
    That's not something i really agree with. "circle-on-the-floor" kind of abilites feels a bit lackluster. I like having to time stuff or weave in more abilites since it feels more engaging, but the problem is when you put in the effort and your abilites just feel extremely weak even with a bit of vengenace. Revenge is like a poor mans cleave now and the real cleave is probably some kind of inside joke at blizzard HQ's at this point. Yes i'm a bit annoyed by it. It's probably because i come from being a DPS and thought i would escape over the top nerfs as a tank. It also doesn't help seeing how DK's, monks and even bears do it.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Teks View Post
    Revenge is like a poor mans cleave now and the real cleave is probably some kind of inside joke at blizzard HQ's at this point.
    LOL

    but yea they should make cleave somewhat unique. I really like the idea of a full cleave but i suppose that break our dps, but then again, aside from maybe wind lord and ldungeons where would it really matter if our cleave had an full affect to it?

  11. #11
    Mechagnome
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    Didn't they actually nerf Revenge damage for being too high just a short while ago? If prot warriors are suddenly behind the rest of the pack with that change that just means blizz done goofed again.

    OT: Whirlwind should not be used as prot. It's bad enough to see prot lunatics with bladestorm, there should be no way in hell you can block or dodge anything while turning into a spinning top of doom.

    My fix: Make less of prot's damage so loaded in Revenge/TClap+Bleed and make cleave hit more (5?) targets. Remove incredibly retarded trash packs like all of those in Heart of Fear that you can LOLAOE down by making punishing mechanics for lack of cc. Remove "smart" aoe that doesn't break cc too, spells don't think for themselves, a grenade exploding should kill the sheep, the ice cube, and the panda all at the same time.
    Naftc, "Hunters are the cheapest class in game and when played right are more deadly than a train plowing through a field of bunnies covered in napalm"

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire Gum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angriff View Post
    Swipe has been a 360 degree AoE since some time during WotLK (patch 3.1 according to google.)
    Oh no, i think you misunderstood me, i didnt think of the skill, but the actual word. Sorry for your confusion - I forgot we were on a wow forum, where every word in the english dictionary is an actual skill ingame :>

    So no, what i actually meant was for cleave to swipe everyone in the face, when infront, like hammer of the righteous.

  13. #13
    Somewhat low? With my heroic leap + Glyph, TC and Shockwave, while its perfect for 5 mans, I barely do 50% of my DK tank friend does just spamming the basics. I have to pop cds and work bloody hard tab targetting compared to what he can do AoE wise.

    I would like them to make Dragon Roar our "shockwave" ability, high threat etc, and then Shockwave more like DnD or Con. Bit like say the shammy earthquake thing. Fits our style well.

    Mocking banner is just stupid for trash pulls.

  14. #14
    I don't think prot dmg is in a bad place btw. I think the execute nerf was needed. I think the revenge nerf was not. Aside just straight throughput I don't think we need a replacement of cleave via whirlwind but rather just a slight redesigning. I think our cleave hitting 5 targets would be a good step in the right direction.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Armwack View Post
    I don't think prot dmg is in a bad place btw. I think the execute nerf was needed. I think the revenge nerf was not. Aside just straight throughput I don't think we need a replacement of cleave via whirlwind but rather just a slight redesigning. I think our cleave hitting 5 targets would be a good step in the right direction.
    No, i think prot single target output on bosses is very decent. Not really anything to complain about and I do not mind the execute nerf one bit since it still will hit plenty hard. It's the AoE threat at lower vengeance levels that bothers me. The suggestion about a 5-target, or some kind of swipe mechanic update to cleave is on point. That'd be terrific.

  16. #16
    as much as I agree other classes have better aoe threat, there's nothing wrong with warrior aoe threat. heroic leap does a ton of damage for a nice opener, shockwave/dragon roar are both awesome threat, and as much as cleave needs an update, hitting 2 targets is more than 1. revenge is awesome with built in 3 mob cleave, so there really is nothing to worry about. no one cares about trash dps anyhow.

  17. #17
    Stood in the Fire Chaltione's Avatar
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    I personally don't have any issues taking over from a vengeance stacked tank. I also have no issues with low dps or low threat compared to other tanks, so I don't feel that those are any issues.

    On the topic of Cleave, I feel like it's a pretty dull ability, and it could be spiced up a bit.

    I'd personally would have loved to see it work somewhat like the "blade flurry" that mantid rares have. A channeled attack that chain attacks anything in a cone ahead.
    It would have to get the treatment of the monk spinning kick that it'd still allow block/parry/dodge, and it could be cancelled (by jumping, /cancelaura or using another ability for example).

    Alternatively, having a synergy between Revenge and Cleave sort of like how Whirlwind and Raging Blow works for Fury, using one builds a stacking buff that increases the number of targets hit with the other.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by kassy View Post
    as much as I agree other classes have better aoe threat, there's nothing wrong with warrior aoe threat. heroic leap does a ton of damage for a nice opener, shockwave/dragon roar are both awesome threat, and as much as cleave needs an update, hitting 2 targets is more than 1. revenge is awesome with built in 3 mob cleave, so there really is nothing to worry about. no one cares about trash dps anyhow.
    I don't think the tone in this thread is necessarily concern but rather people just would like to see a long time ability redesigned slightly. As far as Heroic leap goes I'm going to be honest, if its just trash fine, but I very rarely will start a pull by heroic leaping into it. There's too many variables and one of them is moving tooo quickly out of healing range. If mid pull and i want to pull more sure. Pop a CD, heroic leap,, charge back.. I've just never seen heroic leap to be a great opener.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ochinko View Post
    Judging from Raid / Dungeon content so far and comparing with other tanks aswell as reading on multiple forums it would seem that Warrior AoE Threat is somewhat low.
    Even with the homogenization of tanks where most of our abilities equal those if other tanks it feels as if we're still behind.

    One proposition would be to remove the lackluster 2-Target cleave and give all three warrior specs whirlwind. Or give back the MoP beta 5 target Cleave.

    Also wtb the old Vengance transferring Vigilance, theres just no way to pick up stuff from a Vengance stacked Tank.

    I know this only concerns 5 mans and Trash-Pulls but for me at least who is tanking against a feral druid it would be a welcomed change.

    Thoughts?
    Our threat was fine before the AoE nerf, then they nerfed it and didn't compensate with anything. Its quite ridiculous to believe we are going to magically be okay after quick a chunk of damage nerf.

    They just need to increase our threat mods by 30% or something on our AoE abilities, then it will make up for the damage that was done. I am sick of having to use cleave for threat just to 'try' and compete on 2-3 targets (depending on luck).

    They should bake the old vigilance vengeance transfer into the Tank role. When 2 people are marked tank they transfer 10-15% vengeance to the other tank (or something similar). Vengeance is a shitty fix for a stupid problem that still exists.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 04:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kassy View Post
    as much as I agree other classes have better aoe threat, there's nothing wrong with warrior aoe threat. heroic leap does a ton of damage for a nice opener, shockwave/dragon roar are both awesome threat, and as much as cleave needs an update, hitting 2 targets is more than 1. revenge is awesome with built in 3 mob cleave, so there really is nothing to worry about. no one cares about trash dps anyhow.
    I couldn't care less about my damage. I am just a bit sick of popping DPS CD's and using all of my rage for cleave (when it should be free'ed up for mitigation) and still be 30-40% behind on threat in AoE scenarios.

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  20. #20
    Mechagnome kojinshugi's Avatar
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    Remove Heroic Leap minimum range. Win.
    When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these?! Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!

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