1. #1

    We'll get Valor-equivalent gear by running dungeons next tier

    The title of my post is conjecture, but I believe the process through which I arrived at the conclusion is sound.

    In this tier, you can gear up through dungeons and be ready for this tier of raids. I often complain about the "forced" nature of daily quest rep grinds, but the truth is it's possible to raid without doing any of them (obviously that is far from optimal).

    When the next tier of raids is released, the 463 rewards you can get from dungeons will not be sufficient for running that tier. We won't be forced to gear up in Tier 14 before Tier 15, as that model of progression has been retired since WotLK. We'll either get a new set of dungeons with tons of higher ilvl gear, or we'll get currency from dungeons to buy the appropriate gear to start the new raid tier. Dungeons have always been a source for pre-raid gearing, and this will continue to be the case throughout the life of the expansion.

    If ALL pre-raid gear for the next raid tier is locked behind rep grinds, this would be a monumental shift in design philosophy from Blizzard, and I don't believe they can afford to risk that big of a change. Therefore, to me the conclusion is self-evident: we can expect better rewards from dungeon grinding in our future. Sorry daily quests, but you won't have a monopoly on pre-raid epics forever.

  2. #2
    I am Murloc! The Glitch's Avatar
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    Yup, this is my thoughts on it aswell, it's been like this for a long time now, and I think people tend to forget it. They just grasp onto the now and freak out, I have loads of alts, and i won't be grinding rep on them all, i'll do what I always do, gear them as much as i can through dungeons, and upgrade when new dungeon gears available!

  3. #3
    OR, you could have the choice to progress through LFR to get the pre-raid gear for the new tiers. OR, unless your entire raid group just rerolled, it won't matter if you're not full 496 etc, as you will still be able to perform 'good enough'.

    And if not? Then why not hit up the older raids? Zandalari dungeon drops weren't higher than what was available in BWD or BOT, so it was still sensible to spend some time there first. People already complained quite a bit about the older tiers being made irrelevant, this would be a good role for them.

    Hell, reps are being made easier for alts, so even if everyone did reroll rep valor epics would still be an option.

  4. #4
    They always add higher ilvl items through valor after the new tier comes out. You say that they won't do that because of the rep grinds and how much people hate them and complain about them. But then, what is valor for? Upgrading gear would be the only thing you would use it for, but valor points and valor gear are and have always been Blizzard's "booby prize system". You have shitty luck in raids, get some valor gear to help supplement yourself.

    There is no way they wouldn't add new valor point gear to a new tier. I understand your train of thought and how you came to that conclusion, but it would not happen. The most that would happen would be a removal of the rep requirement, or a reduction of the rep level required.

    Or, what I think to be more likely, they will add new valor gear behind a rep requirement just like they have it now. I know lots of people have complained and given "feedback" and Blizzard has said multiple things in response, but what they usually say in response is that "you can get gear just as good as valor gear through other means."

    If that is the case, and remains the case, we will see valor gear behind rep requirements next tier.

  5. #5
    still you get valor and justice you cant spent without doing dailys.

    my suggestion for excess valor/justice would be to make it possible to buy magrification gear or sth. all my chars are on caps both valor and justice - i cant spend it anywhere useful or at least anywhere fun or sth. THTS the point of faction rep linked to justice/valorpoints. you run inis, you dont get a drop - and as an excuse youll have to run dailys over and over to get some reward out of instances.


    ---------------->>>>

    the point for introducing valor/justicepoints was to give "bad luck" and so frustration!!! less effect cause you could get similar equip from these points. now you can only obtain this compensatory loot, if you do EVEN MORE repetitive shit.

    make justice/valor what it was before: COMPENSATORY for bad luck. the equip youll get is = heros (justice) and raid (valor) and thus unlink them from reputation. justicegear will give itemlvl 363 gear, with a BROAD variety of statmixtures, and is only obtainable IN HEROS, while valor is found 1time daily in hero and otherwise only found in raids, and that give you raid-equivalent gear.

    plus the loot in heros and raids is very bad loot at all. the game just makes NO FUN AT ALL if you get better gear, thats actually worse, because it has stats that are worthless for your class. (for example ALL plate armor favors critrating, a stat thats good for warrior dps, but worthless for DK(frost, cause killing machine) and Retpaladins (cause they scale much better with haste - this definitely SUCKS) -
    the gear is btw one reason for why brewmaaster monk tanks suck: they just dont get mastery (steady dmg reduce if stunned) and haste gear (proccs for evade brew).

    more variety of same itemlvl loot spread around MORE , INDEPENDENT sources to obtain it. the game is really time-absorbant now, i already left all my chars, cause its not fun to do repititive content over and over just to get ONE DAMN ITEM, that 75%chance is set with the wrong stats for a class.

    i really dont understand why blizz has done such a terrible terrible loot design in this addon. its just really un-fun to play the game at all. either you dont get the loot, or you get it, and then youre not much more happy, cause the gear just sucks in stats.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Woceip View Post
    And if not? Then why not hit up the older raids? Zandalari dungeon drops weren't higher than what was available in BWD or BOT, so it was still sensible to spend some time there first. People already complained quite a bit about the older tiers being made irrelevant, this would be a good role for them.
    I don't like that old raids are made obsolete, but that doesn't change the fact that that's exactly what happens each time a new tier is released. You can't field groups to run previous-tier raids without pulling in a lot of favors. Maybe that changes with LFR Tier 14 being queue-able (maybe?) after Tier 15 is released.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
    They always add higher ilvl items through valor after the new tier comes out. You say that they won't do that because of the rep grinds and how much people hate them and complain about them. But then, what is valor for? Upgrading gear would be the only thing you would use it for, but valor points and valor gear are and have always been Blizzard's "booby prize system". You have shitty luck in raids, get some valor gear to help supplement yourself.

    There is no way they wouldn't add new valor point gear to a new tier. I understand your train of thought and how you came to that conclusion, but it would not happen. The most that would happen would be a removal of the rep requirement, or a reduction of the rep level required.

    Or, what I think to be more likely, they will add new valor gear behind a rep requirement just like they have it now. I know lots of people have complained and given "feedback" and Blizzard has said multiple things in response, but what they usually say in response is that "you can get gear just as good as valor gear through other means."

    If that is the case, and remains the case, we will see valor gear behind rep requirements next tier.
    I wouldn't be so sure, though for at least 5.1 I think you are correct that they will add more valor gear. But for most of beta there was not any valor gear at all. The original plan was to only have the upgrade system now coming in 5.1. The gear was added relatively late. According to interviews given prior to the release of MoP, they reversed course and put valor gear in after all primarily because 1) They felt the upgrade system would not be ready to their satisfaction in time for release and 2) They felt that the complete removal of Valor gear, after it had been so central to gearing characters for 2 expansions, would be too much of a shock for players to adapt to on top of the usual changes that come with an expansion.

    I would not be at all surprised if they simply released dungeons along with the next tier of raids that dropped gear equivalent to current Valor gear.
    Last edited by Gurbz; 2012-11-17 at 04:41 PM.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
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    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
    Or, what I think to be more likely, they will add new valor gear behind a rep requirement just like they have it now. I know lots of people have complained and given "feedback" and Blizzard has said multiple things in response, but what they usually say in response is that "you can get gear just as good as valor gear through other means."

    If that is the case, and remains the case, we will see valor gear behind rep requirements next tier.
    No doubt there will be valor gear behind reps next tier. We've already seen previews of that. But the argument that "you can get gear just as good as valor gear through other means" will no longer be true once the next tier of rep grinds is released, unless they also add a better reward structure from dungeons.

  9. #9
    I am Murloc! The Glitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
    They always add higher ilvl items through valor after the new tier comes out. You say that they won't do that because of the rep grinds and how much people hate them and complain about them. But then, what is valor for? Upgrading gear would be the only thing you would use it for, but valor points and valor gear are and have always been Blizzard's "booby prize system". You have shitty luck in raids, get some valor gear to help supplement yourself.

    There is no way they wouldn't add new valor point gear to a new tier. I understand your train of thought and how you came to that conclusion, but it would not happen. The most that would happen would be a removal of the rep requirement, or a reduction of the rep level required.

    Or, what I think to be more likely, they will add new valor gear behind a rep requirement just like they have it now. I know lots of people have complained and given "feedback" and Blizzard has said multiple things in response, but what they usually say in response is that "you can get gear just as good as valor gear through other means."

    If that is the case, and remains the case, we will see valor gear behind rep requirements next tier.
    Don't think he's saying we won't get valor gear at all, just that it won't be locked behind rep requirments, he's also saying we will most likely get new 5 man dungeons that will give perhaps equivilant to raid finder/current valor gear ilevel drops.

    I'm not going to say for sure that they won't put the valor gear in next patches behind reps, but the way the community has reacted towards reps/dailies I can see them thinking hard about it and perhaps just going the valor route without rep attachments in future gear, (unless ofc new factions arise and they get locked behind those! haha.)

    Oh yes actually they may not even have valor *gear* what with the new valor point upgrade system they are doing..

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancing Turkey View Post
    Don't think he's saying we won't get valor gear at all, just that it won't be locked behind rep requirments, he's also saying we will most likely get new 5 man dungeons that will give perhaps equivilant to raid finder/current valor gear ilevel drops.
    There will still be faction rep grinds for valor gear, but they will lose their ability to claim that "dailies are not forced" unless they also add similar gear rewards through dungeon grinds.

  11. #11
    I suspect that they will do the same as they did in Cata, nerf T14 content to make it pug-able.
    I also think that they will add more and higher ilvl JP and VP items to various rep factions.

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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    I wouldn't be so sure, though for at least 5.1 I think you are correct that they will add more valor gear. But for most of beta there was not any valor gear at all. The original plan was to only have the upgrade system now coming in 5.1. The gear was added relatively late. According to interviews given prior to the release of MoP, they reversed course and put valor gear in after all primarily because 1) They felt the upgrade system would not be ready to their satisfaction in time for release and 2) They felt that the complete removal of Valor gear, after it had been so central to gearing characters for 2 expansions, would be too much of a shock for players to adapt to on top of the usual changes that come with an expansion.

    I would not be at all surprised if they simply released dungeons along with the next tier of raids that dropped gear equivalent to current Valor gear.
    We won't know for sure, of course, but I'm dubious of them removing valor point gear period. If they were to, I think they would phase it out. Release new valor point gear in addition to the upgrade system, let people get used to the idea of the upgrade system, see if people are still spending their valor on gear, and make a consideration towards removing or keeping valor gear rewards from then on out.

    Quote Originally Posted by mosely View Post
    No doubt there will be valor gear behind reps next tier. We've already seen previews of that. But the argument that "you can get gear just as good as valor gear through other means" will no longer be true once the next tier of rep grinds is released, unless they also add a better reward structure from dungeons.
    Generally speaking, there is equivalent gear to valor point gear in raids. This coincides with their booby prize system mentality. You don't get those drops in your raid because you are unlucky, so you can use your valor points to supplement that gear. The valor point gear has always been "as good" as the gear in raids, but this expansion we actually see identical gear from a valor point vendor and from a raid. The trinkets from the shado-pan have literally identical raid drop equivalents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancing Turkey View Post
    Don't think he's saying we won't get valor gear at all, just that it won't be locked behind rep requirments, he's also saying we will most likely get new 5 man dungeons that will give perhaps equivilant to raid finder/current valor gear ilevel drops.

    I'm not going to say for sure that they won't put the valor gear in next patches behind reps, but the way the community has reacted towards reps/dailies I can see them thinking hard about it and perhaps just going the valor route without rep attachments in future gear, (unless ofc new factions arise and they get locked behind those! haha.)

    Oh yes actually they may not even have valor *gear* what with the new valor point upgrade system they are doing..
    I actually explained in my post my opinion that there is no way they wouldn't add new valor gear to a new tier. I said that I doubt they wouldn't add it behind the reputation system. I don't think they would add gear that is better than gear acquired through valor into the new dungeons of the new tier, because they have always added new valor gear each tier as it is their "booby prize system," and I don't think they would add valor gear without it being behind the rep vendors due to their responses and general reactions to the feedback they receive about people being unhappy about valor gear being behind reputation. I.e., they have said that valor gear isn't required to gear up properly and that you can get equivalent gear through other means, as in, raids. Surely, people don't like the reputation valor point system, but Blizzard obviously does. The only indication that they didn't like the system was in regards to the actual justice point gear, as it is worse than heroic drops and therefore absolutely useless by the time you are even at the required rep. That's why they removed rep requirements from that, but they obviously didn't remove it from valor gear, on purpose.
    Last edited by Pascal; 2012-11-17 at 05:02 PM.

  13. #13
    In a way it makes sense to have current-tier itemlevel gear drop in heroics when next tier rolls around, after all, how many people will bother with MSV/HoF/ToES (With the usual queue-time repercussions) once the next raid-tier is available in LFR?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Woceip View Post
    OR, you could have the choice to progress through LFR to get the pre-raid gear for the new tiers. OR, unless your entire raid group just rerolled, it won't matter if you're not full 496 etc, as you will still be able to perform 'good enough'.
    Prettymuch this.

    You don't need rep gear to progress through T14, and we went into that wearing blues.

    T15 anyone who hasn't just started raiding will be able to go in with whatever epics they've already got.

    Add to that the however many wings of raid finder you have, VP gear is even more optional than T14 - hell, you can even vent it all via the item upgrade system, so you don't have to feel like you've capped but not spending it is a waste.

  15. #15
    I think the progression path has changed with LFR. Dungeons are for pre-raiding gear, then use LFR to climb the tiers.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithshield View Post
    I think the progression path has changed with LFR. Dungeons are for pre-raiding gear, then use LFR to climb the tiers.
    Depending on luck, this can take quite a while. People have pretty much bypassed the ilvl requirements using Brewfest/HH drops, but without those, it's quite a bit harder to reach 470.

  17. #17
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Depending on luck, this can take quite a while. People have pretty much bypassed the ilvl requirements using Brewfest/HH drops, but without those, it's quite a bit harder to reach 470.
    The first sections of LFR only require 460 (or 465?), which is easy to get.

    EDIT: It is indeed 460, which doesn't even require full heroic dungeon gear.
    Last edited by Rivin; 2012-11-17 at 05:55 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhany View Post
    still you get valor and justice you cant spent without doing dailys.

    my suggestion for excess valor/justice would be to make it possible to buy magrification gear or sth. all my chars are on caps both valor and justice - i cant spend it anywhere useful or at least anywhere fun or sth. THTS the point of faction rep linked to justice/valorpoints. you run inis, you dont get a drop - and as an excuse youll have to run dailys over and over to get some reward out of instances.


    ---------------->>>>

    the point for introducing valor/justicepoints was to give "bad luck" and so frustration!!! less effect cause you could get similar equip from these points. now you can only obtain this compensatory loot, if you do EVEN MORE repetitive shit.

    make justice/valor what it was before: COMPENSATORY for bad luck. the equip youll get is = heros (justice) and raid (valor) and thus unlink them from reputation. justicegear will give itemlvl 363 gear, with a BROAD variety of statmixtures, and is only obtainable IN HEROS, while valor is found 1time daily in hero and otherwise only found in raids, and that give you raid-equivalent gear.

    plus the loot in heros and raids is very bad loot at all. the game just makes NO FUN AT ALL if you get better gear, thats actually worse, because it has stats that are worthless for your class. (for example ALL plate armor favors critrating, a stat thats good for warrior dps, but worthless for DK(frost, cause killing machine) and Retpaladins (cause they scale much better with haste - this definitely SUCKS) -
    the gear is btw one reason for why brewmaaster monk tanks suck: they just dont get mastery (steady dmg reduce if stunned) and haste gear (proccs for evade brew).

    more variety of same itemlvl loot spread around MORE , INDEPENDENT sources to obtain it. the game is really time-absorbant now, i already left all my chars, cause its not fun to do repititive content over and over just to get ONE DAMN ITEM, that 75%chance is set with the wrong stats for a class.

    i really dont understand why blizz has done such a terrible terrible loot design in this addon. its just really un-fun to play the game at all. either you dont get the loot, or you get it, and then youre not much more happy, cause the gear just sucks in stats.
    The solution to your problem is reforging. Not all the gear is bad, either, just not all that comes from raids or the reps is perfect, but I've found piles of excellent haste gear:

    - Necklace from LFR (and equip raid drop one)
    - Excellent strength trinket with on-use haste from MV normal
    - Crafted haste/hit pants (perfect for me as a 2H frost)
    - Plate helm off of Feng - haste

    + you can gem for it.

    For the upcoming patches I see it going the same way. Reps stay the same, but more VP gear is added and the previous set of VP gear becomes JP, most likely to help alts keep up with mains. Simple.



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