Have they taken F2P restrictions a little too far?

[Edge-]

they are? well that's a start at least, I hope they do something about the xp reduction, at least reduce it to about 10% or so rather than ~25%

Oh god, yes please. It's not that the leveling is necessarily slow as a F2P player, but it just feels slow as hell, especially considering I'm doing all the bonus quests -_-

[ranku]

actually, does anyone have a source for bioware saying that? i want to see if there is more to it.

[Berethos08]

Okay, first of all, f2p is all about grinding in game or paying real money. That is its thing. That's how it makes money.

F2P 101. Everyone knows (or should know) that.

However, what other recent non-subscription based games (both F2P and B2P) are doing better than SWTOR is making both playing the game itself and sticking around more attractive...mainly by making it less complicated to follow the very rule you described. SWTOR manages to *just* skirt around not following that by allowing unlocks to be used as a form of RMT, thus allowing non-subbed players access to anything via grinding in-game currency...

Yet the amount of stuff they lock, and the weekly requirement for end-game stuff on top of that? When you have a game that is entering a market where you often either pay for convenience items or vanity skins only and have access to all content for free(Aion, RaiderZ, and even non-MMOs like LoL) or put up an initial buy-in price and then have full access (GW2), or where you can use in-game or real life money to obtain the specific store currency to then purchase exactly what you want and not just what others are selling (GW2 again, as well as STO)...

When you have a game entering that kind of market and not being competitive with those kinds of offers, you have a game that is failing to successfully implement a F2P system that will provide the longevity they expect. The best F2P systems have evolved, changing what the player has to "grind in-game or pay real money" for, and EA simply isn't keeping up.

Edit: Something else just occurred to me - looking at GW2, Aion, and RaiderZ, which are all games that go for the no monthly subscription approach and open up all content (GW2 has its purchase price, of course, but you'll see why I'm including it in a second)...and also rely on regular revenue from an in-game cash shop...

All three happen to place a fairly heavy emphasis on RNG. GW2 has its random dye packs, consortium boxes, and mini-pet packs, as well as keys for Black Lion Chests. RaiderZ sells gift boxes with a chance for sweet vanity stuff (different looking mounts), as well as booster items that increase your chances of successful enchants on items (as well as higher chance that it won't break at the highest enchant levels). Aion sells similar enchant boosters, where mana stones and enchants are a significant part of the end-game...

SWTOR does have the cartel boxes, but given that the RNG there isn't as integral to the design of the game like it is in these other examples (and are more likely to be bought by subscribers, meaning EA won't likely be gaining additional money from them), I wonder how long the store can provide a strong revenue stream (assuming it already is) without the same kind of gambling approach.

[Deleted]

Oh god, yes please. It's not that the leveling is necessarily slow as a F2P player, but it just feels slow as hell, especially considering I'm doing all the bonus quests -_-

It feels slow as a subscriber too. Even if you are playing some crazy hours a day you are lucky if you get 2 levels done. Sure that is quite a chunk considering max level is 50 but it still feels painfully slow.
I hope they really streamline the leveling experience some and smooth it out with the first expansion if they lift the max level too. Making the Legacy system what it was meant to be and not just another character bound cash dump would be cool too.

[Xcitement]

This is a copy of a post I did...

Unfortunately no I will not be returning. I understand that the purpose of any company is to make money but EA has taken a very wrong route. Some of the restrictions I understand and quite a bit of Subscription to F2P conversion games have them for example Limit to # of character slots, limit to amount of cash you can have, limit to the amount of XP you gain. However it is a bad idea to both limit the amount of XP gained AND restrict Flashpoints and Warzones. That hurts the subscribers because less people will be able to queue and it will cause long waits for them. The UI restrictions are completely asinine. No game F2P, Trial, or whatever restricts the UI in such a way. I would of been ok if they said the F2P & Preferred Status customers get the default UI, you know the one people didn't like @ launch, and subscribers get the new customizable one with 2 EXTRA bars.

Bottom line EA has shown a level of greed that does not sit well with me. The cash shop and restriction is set up to bully not entice players to spend money. Not my thing. If anyone wants to see a Sub to f2P conversion that was done right check out Champions Online. To make a successful F2P game a company MUST understand that you WILL have some players that would milk the system to play completely for free, the key is to entice and make the stuff in the cash shop things people want not need. This is a game and people do not want to spend their money on needs or they wouldn't be in a game they'll be spending their money on needs IRL. One of the biggest sellers in most F2P games are things to customize how your character looks. Costumes, mounts, pets, furniture for houses stuff like that.

This is some of the restrictions I'd of placed in the game.

• Cash restrictions, 200K F2P, 500K Preferred
• XP restrictions, 50% less F2P, 30% less Preferred (just random % I stuck in there could be higher)
• No restrictions on Regular Flashpoints, Warzones, the first Operation and Space Missions
• Purchase unlocks for Hard Mode flashpoints & Operations
• Purchase unlocks for Rated Warzones
• Purchase unlocks for Operations past the first Operation
• 2 Character limit for F2P 4 for Preferred
• Purchase unlocks for extra 2 character slots to a maximum of 8
• F2P customers cannot create Force Wielding Characters, Preferred can only have 1
• Purchase Class Unlocks
• Purchase Race Unlocks
• 1 Bank Tab for F2P & Preferred
• Purchase unlocks for extra bank tabs

• Any previous Legacy unlocks previously attained will be kept for Preferred
• Any previously created characters will be playable for Preferred if there is more than 4 to create a new character players must deleted some existing characters.

• Cartel Store should have a bunch of purchasable custom gear packs that would be available to them to buy with in game cash at the social vendor (No social rank required), New Mounts, XP boost, 200, 300 & 500K cash limit extenders things like that.

This is just off the top of my head but you get an idea.

[snowcrash512]

I appreciate that they have to sell certain things to make money and all.. I dont get why tho, considering i paid 60 bucks and another 45 on monthly payments when the game launched, and had full access to quickbars and hiding my freakin helmet, that those features are now locked to me? I mean really, i paid for the game, full price, when these new people pay nothing.... how about you unlock my freaking UI options that I already had access too, for free and throw me a bone here ya know? If you wanna lock that crap out then lock it out for the pure F2P people and not the people that already had these features, it doesnt make me want to resub, it just makes me realize how focused on getting money and not improving the game they really are.

And no, giving me reward coins that I have to pay more money to receive is not a reward.

[drudge]

personally, I think they imposed the restrictions so you wouldn't have the credit-botting operations out there leveling up free accounts to max out all classes, then selling the account info to a new player who wants to skip the whole leveling process entirely.

[Psychlon]

This is a copy of a post I did...

This is some of the restrictions I'd of placed in the game.as

• Cash restrictions, 200K F2P, 500K Preferred
• XP restrictions, 50% less F2P, 30% less Preferred (just random % I stuck in there could be higher) I wouldn't put XP restrictions, the game is not getting more enjoyable
• No restrictions on Regular Flashpoints, Warzones, the first two Operation and Space Missions restriction for lvl 50 warzones
• Purchase unlocks for Hard Mode flashpoints
• Purchase unlocks for Rated Warzones + lvl 50 pvp bracket, can be one unlock for both
• Purchase unlocks for Operations past the second Operation
• 2 Character limit for F2P 4 for Preferred F2P 4, Preferred 8
• Purchase unlocks for extra 2 character slots to a maximum of 10
• F2P customers cannot create Force Wielding Characters, Preferred can only have 1 why is that a good restriction?
• Purchase Class Unlocks no class restrictions
• Purchase Race Unlocks
• 1 Bank Tab for F2P & Preferred 2 for Preferred
• Purchase unlocks for extra bank tabs

Any previous Legacy unlocks previously attained will be kept for Preferred
Any previously created characters will be playable for Preferred if there is more than 4 to create a new character players must deleted some existing characters.


Cartel Store should have a bunch of purchasable custom gear packs that would be available to them to buy with in game cash at the social vendor (No social rank required), New Mounts, XP boost, 200, 300 & 500K cash limit extenders things like that.

my 2 cents above

[Hotasianchick]

So i am around lvl 36 been a day since i've been on eh maybe 37. To respec its around 68 k for ftp for my character right now . I would love to keep healing flashpoints etc... and its just getting to expensive. I think its reasonable for them to block endgame content but its a bit much to pray for a ah sale and go clear a planet full of quests to afford the respec . Saps the fun out of it.

[Psychlon]

doesn't it reset after 1 week?

[Xcitement]

my 2 cents above

I'll go through point by point to explain why I did not make the suggestions you made.

• XP restriction is not uncommon in F2P conversions. Bottom line subscribers are supposed to have a bit of an advantage over non subscribers. I however feel they went to far having XP restrictions, reduced cash & valor in addition to limited number of warzones/flashpoints for the week. And such a pitiful number also. Unlocking lvl 50 warzones is included in this point.
• Restricting the lvl 50 warzone will have the same problem I'm trying to fix by having unlimited warzones. Longer queue times for subscribers. As for the first 2 operations sorry it's a taste you want more buy the unlock or subscribe. As I said I understand they got to make money you get all the leveling content, space missions, flashpoints and warzones and an operation come on don't get greedy.
• I disagree with giving free customers that many. That's all the class stories for a faction for one account. Also 2 seem to be the standard number for a few F2P conversion games. With 2 characters you get hooked enough (maybe) to want to play the others and you buy extra character slots or subscribe.
• 8 character slots will cover every class story and every advanced class once you pick opposing faction for the other advance class. Beside you still want to leave some advantages to subscribe. Want more than 8 character slots to have say both AC on the same faction and still get to see all the class stories subscribe.
• The reason why it's a good restriction is the same as above. Give them a taste. You can still play as many FP, WZ and stuff without paying a scent but if you wanna be a Jedi or a Sith you gotta pay for it. I mean that's what Star Wars is about, what their dream is to play. You don't NEED to be a Jedi to play the game but you WANT to and as I said people will pay for what they WANT over NEED in a game. You can buy the locked classes as a F2P customer.
• Sorry if as a Preferred Status player you never unlocked extra bank slots before stopping your subscription you deserve only 1.

Let me make something clear. This game was not designed from the ground up as a F2P like PW created (not bought out) games or Allods. This is a hybrid model having both F2P, Subscription and in between players. There NEED to be some restrictions to have being a subscriber worth it. However at the same time do not let the F2P and Preferred Status players feel gimped. The biggest pinch in what I'm proposing is the XP reduction for non Subscribers but you can buy XP boosts to off set that. As I said before this is a business and I have no problem putting things in place to generate cash for the company however do it in the right way.

[Kelimbror]

Let me make something clear. This game was not designed from the ground up as a F2P like PW created (not bought out) games or Allods. This is a hybrid model having both F2P, Subscription and in between players.

Irrelevant. Many games are designed just like this without all the tomfoolery.

There NEED to be some restrictions to have being a subscriber worth it. However at the same time do not let the F2P and Preferred Status players feel gimped. The biggest pinch in what I'm proposing is the XP reduction for non Subscribers but you can buy XP boosts to off set that. As I said before this is a business and I have no problem putting things in place to generate cash for the company however do it in the right way.

No, there certainly don't NEED to be restrictions to make being a subscriber relevant. In fact, it would be more benefitial to the game to simply reward subscribers more instead of punishing non subscribers. This is the exact mentality that leads to the garbage HK has been talking about.

There should be so many things on the Market and so many EXTRA benefits from being a subscriber that you are excited to become a subscriber. Not a feeling of oh boy, my shackles are off and I can play the game like you always could. Subscribers should really not be satisfied with this F2P model either. I hope you will see that though, when the day comes where they charge everyone for Makeb.

[Xcitement]

Irrelevant. Many games are designed just like this without all the tomfoolery.


No, there certainly don't NEED to be restrictions to make being a subscriber relevant. In fact, it would be more benefitial to the game to simply reward subscribers more instead of punishing non subscribers. This is the exact mentality that leads to the garbage HK has been talking about.

There should be so many things on the Market and so many EXTRA benefits from being a subscriber that you are excited to become a subscriber. Not a feeling of oh boy, my shackles are off and I can play the game like you always could. Subscribers should really not be satisfied with this F2P model either. I hope you will see that though, when the day comes where they charge everyone for Makeb.

Well let's see your proposal and be honest about if you think EA will let that fly. As I originally said look at Champions Online. You don't feel gimped while on a Silver (F2P) account but as a Gold (subscriber) you can play any class, have more character slots before buying extra, and have access to all the travel powers. Most are variations off the base ones you get for free but looks different to suit the theme of the super hero you're trying to make. Then there's Free Form characters which tend to be more powerful. As a F2P account you can buy a FF slot but you still need to use one of your existing character slots to make it in as a sub all your slots can be FF characters.

When the game was sub only there were no restrictions after the conversion there were. Look at any F2P conversion/hybrid be it CO, LOTRO, hell even DCUO but that one I feel is still too restrictive.

EA has to validate this model to their board of directors and having no restrictions as a F2P customer will encourage way too many people NOT to subscribe. However the current restrictions will stop new and returning players to stick around. You may disagree with what I suggested but it's pretty flexible and doesn't feel restricted.

[Kelimbror]

having no restrictions as a F2P customer will encourage way too many people NOT to subscribe. However the current restrictions will stop new and returning players to stick around. You may disagree with what I suggested but it's pretty flexible and doesn't feel restricted.

Actually, several games have proven that they are making money from having less restrictions or a better system. I specifically stated that they needed to focus on other things to maximize their revenue. If this is the company that is looking to 'pioneer' F2P across the board, we should all be very worried.

BF4 will have all classes locked except one, all maps except one, longer times to revive, reduced xp gain, and so forth unless you subscribe to their new BF Premium service. So in essence, we are going backwards in video game progression. Now your $60 up front will give you jack shit unless you keep paying them more money. The fact that some people so willingly accept getting pillaged for their income is disgusting.

Thank god we still have quality games coming out and a company like Valve (with Steam) proving that you can successfully make, market, and sell games without robbing customers blind. The divide between these companies will only become more vast as the lines between what we pay for and what we get become blurred.

[Xcitement]

Actually, several games have proven that they are making money from having less restrictions or a better system.

You notice we're saying the same thing. I'm calling for less restrictions. The XP thing the number is something I called off the top of my head which is subject to change. Honestly I find you level crazy fast in SW:TOR.

I still would like to see a general even rough outline of what you propose the F2P model for SW:TOR should be.

[Kelimbror]

You notice we're saying the same thing. I'm calling for less restrictions.

We're not saying the same thing at all. I'm calling for:

no restrictions on things like UI elements.
More character slots, but not all.
The overall concept is that playing the game shouldn't be a punishment for not playing.
No further reduced XP
No rez limit BS
Unlocks should be permanent.
Gear should not be restricted.
More incentives should be offered to subscribers.
More extras should be added to the Market.
No currency cap for preferred/much higher cap. Like, in the millions.

Using any model other than this one would have been received far better.

[Cirque]

When you complain about a game (insert whatever one you want WOW - Adventures in pandaland, SWTOR, etc) its kind of hypocritical to keep handing them money for it. Its awesome reading the WOW forums about people complaining about the game, saying it sucks, etc and keep on paying $15 a month to play.

Bioware stated the reason people were quitting was because of the $15 a month subscription fee. If people didn't think the game was worth $15 a month for the full version, what makes them think people are going to pay $10 to unlock UI bars?

For the same reason people won't pay 15 euros to buy Farmville, but will spend 150 on seeds or whatever it is you buy. It is free, and it's a "one time purchase right!!", it's much easier to be swayed to buy something from a shop on a whim than it is to think about it, buy the game, fill out subscription form, etc......

...And of course, Bioware knows it's not subs that made people leave. But what else could they say? "Our bad pvp system, the lack of customer service and furthermore the lack of improvements to address persistant problems, be they technical or otherwise"? Well that's great advertisement right there! Or you say it's "well people hate subs so here's a gift: the game will be FREE".

Edit: And you know what, people like myself who quit, as you can see in this and various other topics, are considering to come back. "The game was shit when we quit, but maybe it's better now and oh well it's free anyway so let's check it out". And sure many people will be disappointed again, and just quit again, but some will stick. Furthermore, the free thing will attract an audience that previously would not have bothered, too. (on a sidenote, I'm not 'coming back', it was fun as long as it lasted and I have fond memories, but that's it).

[Xcitement]

We're not saying the same thing at all. I'm calling for:

no restrictions on things like UI elements.
More character slots, but not all.
The overall concept is that playing the game shouldn't be a punishment for not playing.
No further reduced XP
No rez limit BS
Unlocks should be permanent.
Gear should not be restricted.
More incentives should be offered to subscribers.
More extras should be added to the Market.
No currency cap for preferred/much higher cap. Like, in the millions.

Using any model other than this one would have been received far better.

Dude the only thing you said different to me is the XP reduction and the cash limit.

[Grable]

A little too far? More like wayyyyyy too far. This is almost as bad as AZN MMO cash shops that sell direct power for €.

[Xcitement]

Check out this post from the Official Forums
http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...555690&page=36

Potential resub here. Well actually not a potential resub in truth, more a potential enhanced FTP player here. I really prefer throwing my money at the secret world in truth and playing thsi game part time, which genuinely means that im exactly the kind of player that they should be marketing towards.

Unfortunately it feels a little overly restrictive. Please, for the love of all things, before i continue, hold back the need to flame me with the "well, subscribe then!" misnomer. Im not going to subscribe. Ive already got a game im thoroughly enjoying paying my subscription fee on. Im not paying for two.

What i am willing to do though is pay for the one i like best and throw a bit of cash to the one i dont like as much but still kinda like. The game isnt trash, so thats the first thing. Im not here to hate on the game. I want to play it, but in a straight subscription war for my $15 it loses out to TSW. (FOR ME, not necessarily for you - i can appreciate and understand you might prefer this game - i like it too).

But let me just mention a few things that a FTP brings in an attempt to help the conversation progress along a bit:

1. Money. Not as much as a subscriber likely (though some will spend a fortune, most probably wont). Still, we will drop cash on some things now and again when we want something. The whole pull back to FTP for a lot of lapsed subs is of course that we like the game, but dont necessarily want to throw out $15 on it. I like warzones. They break up the monotony of questing. I like the stories. And i like popping into flashpoints now and again. Im sure id like operations, but cant seem to get into endgame. What FTP brings is customisation and a sense of fairness. I dont have to pay for all the stuff i dont want to do, but i am more than willing to pay for the things i do want to do. Im getting a nice deal and bioware are getting at least some money from me rather than the zero money theyd definitely be receiving if the option didnt exist. Free to Play brings CHOICE and options. This is great for the entire playerbase.

2. We bring atmosphere just by our presence. A few threads on the forums have already remarked how the hubs are feeling livelier and more interesting. This creates a positive environment for all players which mean a) subs are happier with a less stagnant set of players, and b) non subs might be more inclined to sub or at least stick around because the atmosphere is fun. This is win win for everyone, and all it requires is bodies on the ground (assuming of course that no ones stuck in a queue to log on).

3. We pop queue times. I guess this might be more warzones, but more people means more warzones going off which means less waiting for PVPers. Assuming again that the server caps arent being breached, then this shoudl mean lots of happy players.

4. We buy stuff and sell stuff by actually being a part of the game economy. This helps to foster a healthy market where everyone benefits (though omg, when will the GTN improve its search?).

Im sure there are others, but im er, slightly half cut at the moment happy playing the game with my 2 action bars.

What i want to stress though is that the above is a virtuous cycle of (un)intended consequences. And it should be part of the aim of a good FTP system. Unfortunately i dont see this one working and heres the top three reasons i can think of as to why:

1. Overly restrictive. UI restrictions which honestly should be taken for granted, make just everyday stuff a chore. I know, please, i know... its only THREE DOLLARS!!!! etc, but the point is that its a first impression and its going to drive people away immediately. NOT, and i stress this, because they cant afford $3 but because theyll feel that a PTP game style isnt really a long term option in this game.

2. Character unlocks. People invested time in their characters. Deleting them to play through a new storyline every time you hit 50 means that FTP is not a long term play style that is being catered for in this game.

3. Restricting core parts of the game is fine. Making you pay the same as a full subscription (when you factor in teh cartel coins for subbing) to play one aspect of the game means you might as well just sub. Some people will argue thats exactly the point. Argue away, but again, this simply means that PTP is not a long term optional play style that is being catered for by this game.

The key point in this is that this is supposed to be a hybrid option. You can pay the sub, or you can pay for the bits and time you actually want to play. The problem is NOT (and again, i have to stress this because people really arent digesting it) that restrictions exist at all. The problem is that it is simply *too* restrictive to retain former subs in the alternative paying model. If they wanted a subscription theyd obviously still be paying for a subscription. They do however have an interest in the game or they wouldnt even be on these forums or taking advantage of the FTP features.

The problem is really that you have little more than an extended trial, with an option for subscription at the end of it. I know you may disagree, but i urge you to make a new account and see how long you enjoy running without a sprint, or having your xp massively curtailed and very limited means to increase it outside of grinding through tunnels of mobs, or having 2 hotbars, or having mismatched clown gears, or having to wear some fugly helmets or whatever else youll find annoying. The point is that instead of looking at the free fun parts and the very fact they can play the game at all, theyll naturally be looking at how constricted their character feels, and how ultimately useless it is to even reach end game on their character let alone remain moderately competitive thereafter.
Actually thats another thing i forgot to mention above. End game doesnt exist in this game for a FTP player. You cant work it anywhere near the cost of a sub, so once again, sub or leave.

The whole function of a FTP system is supposed to be that it sits alongside the subscription model and offers the player a choice of playing style. If i want to remain competitive ill certainly have to pay for some features, but not necessarily for the whole thing. It should require a bit more of a challenge and subscribers would necessarily have some essential advantages, but im not completely locked out of end game and of final progression. As it currently stands though, even just unlocking one core feature is the equivalent of the sub price making it a straight choice NOT between a FTP style and a sub style (the supposed aim of this FTP system), but between subbing and not subbing.

FTPers simply lack any real playstyle choice. If they want to play the game long term, they are frankly compelled to buy a sub. But by biowares own admission, they dont want one. So FTP, the apparent solution to bringing down the barriers to access (the very thing bioware talked about in their reasoning for introducing a FTP alternative) offers no constructive solution, and under the current conditions therefore likely restates the very problem (barriers to access) and thus cannot succeed.

Which of course begs the question, why spend so much time and development money in creating a FTP system at all then if its simply going to reproduce the exact same conditions as the allegedly failing game (no alternative to a subscription)? Since the restrictions make it an inevitable choice between subbing and not subbing for anything outside of story grinding, and since a trial already existed for new players to familiarise themselves with the game, this leaves one very cynical reason for its existence. And im genuinely surprised subscribers arent more mad that theyre now expected to pay extra for things which their subscription is supposed to already be paying for (the ongoing development of new features, races, items, and areas).