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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by cexspa View Post
    pvp power for hybrids had to be nerfed. if you cant see why then maybe you are playing it wrong.
    it is better for the game over all. people are sick and tired of having to arena with double "healer" comps since a hybrid can off heal very effectively which result in longer / less punishing / retard (excuse me language) friendly games.
    learning how to set up cross cc helps

    the problem is shadowpriests, they have powerful heals at little to no resourse cost, amazing control, which blizz can't really change with out screwing disc over, and very good damage with both the capacity to burst and deal spread pressure.
    they really have no weaknesses.

    blizz should go in a specifically look at shadow's mechanics instead of screwing over all the hybrids, many of whom are not really overpowered in anyway.

    tweak pvp power specifically for priests, raise the mana costs of their offspec spells, make their heals cost shadow orbs, these are all better ways to fix their hybrid healing with out gutting ret and enhance.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  2. #42
    I see this whole change as stupid.

    It merely serves to tighten the total stranglehold healers have over BGs.

    Right now I see no sane reason to bring dps to what is a Healers-only party

  3. #43
    Stood in the Fire Shibuya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyzz View Post
    There has been mention of nerfing pvp power to only increase dmg/heals depending on your spec. How does this help with balance. Spriest and ret pallies (offhealing) is over the top, but why should other hybrids suffer the burden?

    OP Heals
    Spriest - From my knowledge they have power word: shield, flash heal, prayer of mending, renew. (Tool kit is to diverse)
    Rets - Flash of light, word of glory. (Problem lies in rets offheals, and self heals are actually fine. but this is my opinion.)

    Also: is feral/boomkin/elemental/enhance OP? Better question: Are they OP due to self healing?

    What would the outlook be for these above classes?

    Spriests/Rets are still above the rest of the hyrbids so how does this bridge the gap?

    In summary, i don't know what the phuck blizzard are smoking.
    No, there hasn't. There has been talk of nerfing hybrid healing.

  4. #44
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damerflinn View Post
    The thing is that these changes won't change much at all in the end.

    Shadow- Will simply just stack more Int instead of PvP power to have the same result. So those of you thinking shadow deserves this, while possibly correct, won't be happy with the end result still.
    I've seen this posted repeatedly and corrected it repeatedly, so I'll present the math here so you can see why this argument is incorrect (and hopefully that kills it).

    In full pvp gear, gemming completely for pvp power, hybrids will have like 50% pvp power. That means 50% bigger heals. Flash Heal will probably heal for around 60k by the time I have full BIS pvp gear (currently 56k). subtract the 50% pvp power healing bonus from 60k, and you have 40k (40k * 1.5 = 60k). This means that the amount of spellpower needed to get the equivalent heal without pvp power is around 13,000.

    Let's be clear, if I swap all my pvp power gems for int gems, I would gain around 1k spellpower, to get the same heal without pvp power scaling my healing up I would need 13k spellpower (13k intellect). 13k > 1k. QED: Swapping pvp power gems for int gems and losing pvp power scaling to healing is a colossal nerf to hybrid healing. In full BiS pvp gear including int gems I will have around 12,000 intellect - so if you know some way I can more than double my main stat - please do share

    Now, I'm all for that - I said repeatedly during the beta that we were going to scale way too well with pvp power - and I don't even think it's really at a problem level right now - but it obviously will be as gear increases. So, a pvp power nerf was inevitable, and the one I suggested was to make it not double dip for hybrids - and they used my suggestion (Though to be fair, its more likely that they came to the same conclusion independently since it's the only logical answer)
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-11-18 at 10:53 PM.
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    I do, but when he's talking about 300k heals, and calling out shadowpriests and rets, my point was that shadowpriest heals are a) smaller than boomkin heals (which are in turn also far smaller than ret heals, which are still way below 300k outside of cooldowns), b) that at 55k shadow heals are close to 1/6th of what he's suggesting, and c) that it's not shadow heals (or even ret heals) its all hybrids scaling too well with pvp power. Boomkin heals obviously should be (and consequently are) larger than shadow or ele heals because they take longer to cast.
    Sure as hell not. Had a game today where a shadow managed to get away with his vanish (something shadow really, really didn't need to have) and get behind the obstacles in Dalaran. He then healed himself from around 10-15% health to 100% in two casts taking him less then 3 seconds.

    This is not in any kind of way balanced. Healing done by hybrids and even pure dps speccs is completly insane right now. Just take a look the healing done on battlegrounds. At times classes such as warriors, shadows and some others are actually competing with healers who're doing nothing but healing.

  6. #46
    Love smashing ppl's face with 300k+ execute. <3

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Sure as hell not. Had a game today where a shadow managed to get away with his vanish (something shadow really, really didn't need to have) and get behind the obstacles in Dalaran. He then healed himself from around 10-15% health to 100% in two casts taking him less then 3 seconds.

    This is not in any kind of way balanced. Healing done by hybrids and even pure dps speccs is completly insane right now. Just take a look the healing done on battlegrounds. At times classes such as warriors, shadows and some others are actually competing with healers who're doing nothing but healing.
    He had Surge of Light proccs, 1 or 2, which makes that 3-4 'casts'. If you think that it goes too fast, whine on that talent then.

    People seem to forget, or dismiss the fact that shadow has the issue of getting oom, unlike ele & moonkins. You wouldn't understand unless you played an SP. If you have a healer dispelling all your dots and a warrior sitting on you, you're gonna get oom. You cant have any mana-reg dot up enough. Now if you also need to heal your mana is not gonna last 10 minutes.

    I agree the amount of healing it does is too much, but please no resource cost increases or CDs or anything like that. This nerf with pvp power is fine as it is, at least in shadows case.

    Also people without knowledge claim that shadows heal in shadowform, but that healing is so little and mediocre that its an illusion of shadows healing. The REAL healing is when you pop out of shadowform and spam yourself up with flashes. If you let the SP get away and he is lucky with proccs, yes he's gonna fill himself up, but at the cost of mana and dps time. He cant manage his dots properly while doing so, and thats even more mana problems right there.

    If the fight drags out he's gonna oom, so quit complaining about anything other than the amount of healing it does per cast.

  8. #48
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Sure as hell not. Had a game today where a shadow managed to get away with his vanish (something shadow really, really didn't need to have) and get behind the obstacles in Dalaran. He then healed himself from around 10-15% health to 100% in two casts taking him less then 3 seconds.

    This is not in any kind of way balanced. Healing done by hybrids and even pure dps speccs is completly insane right now. Just take a look the healing done on battlegrounds. At times classes such as warriors, shadows and some others are actually competing with healers who're doing nothing but healing.
    So, I have around 400k hp, 10% of that is 40k, so 360k hp he did in 2 casts? Assuming he has From Darkness, Comes Light (15% chance to proc on Flash heal to make the next Flash Heal instant) and 11% crit (like I do), and a Flash Heal heals for 55k non-crit, 110k critical. Assuming all crits, 3 crits would heal for 330k - not enough to full heal him (close though) but it would actually require 4 crits to full heal. To do that in 2 'casts' requires double FDCL procs. The odds of all that occurring are .0003% (not 3 percent, but 3 one thousandths of one percent).

    Of course, it's possible you're exaggerating for dramatic effect
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  9. #49
    The easy solution is to bake the "either boost damage or healing" into the spec itself. So it will be useless trying to cheat by using Int gems instead of PVP power gems.

  10. #50
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    The easy solution is to bake the "either boost damage or healing" into the spec itself. So it will be useless trying to cheat by using Int gems instead of PVP power gems.
    See my previous post (4th on this page).

    If you know how I can get 13,000 Intellect by swapping my pvp power gems to intellect gems, feel free to show me which vendor sells 1000+ int gems.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-11-19 at 03:16 AM.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    See my previous post (4th on this page).

    If you know how I can get 13,000 Intellect by swapping my pvp power gems to intellect gems, feel free to show me which vendor sells 1000+ int gems.
    Well first you need more than just dreadfull.
    At 10 malevolent pices and t2 wep im sitting on 12,9k agi. Now if I gemmed differently I would reach 13.7k agi with no problem atall.
    And fyi primary stats is all the same for everyone.

  12. #52
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ettan View Post
    Well first you need more than just dreadfull.
    At 10 malevolent pices and t2 wep im sitting on 12,9k agi. Now if I gemmed differently I would reach 13.7k agi with no problem atall.
    And fyi primary stats is all the same for everyone.
    I'm 8 piece malevolent, so not sure why the discrepancy is so large (though as an agi class you probably aren't using straight pvp power like I am, so thats surely part of it), also my profs are Tailoring / Engineering, so my professions aren't giving me passive int - that's a bit more of the gap - actually, combined that's probably the full gap between our primary stats. With that said, obviously you're not suggesting that will cause me to DOUBLE my primary stat, right?
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  13. #53
    defending shadowpriests isn't worth it. its not JUST the healing that makes them so powerful right now. its a combination of their healing, control and damage output.

    mana isn't really a limiting factor on their heals, and they no longer even have to sacrifice the damage reduction of shadowform to use a number of heals ( why did they need that glyph? i don't know)

    a simple way to fix it would to just increase the mana costs of their heals so they can only get 3-4 off before their mana pool is obliterated, just like the melee hybrids have to deal with.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    defending shadowpriests isn't worth it. its not JUST the healing that makes them so powerful right now. its a combination of their healing, control and damage output.

    mana isn't really a limiting factor on their heals, and they no longer even have to sacrifice the damage reduction of shadowform to use a number of heals ( why did they need that glyph? i don't know)

    a simple way to fix it would to just increase the mana costs of their heals so they can only get 3-4 off before their mana pool is obliterated, just like the melee hybrids have to deal with.
    Shadow's mana pool pretty much does already work like that, what's different from the melee is that a melee (say, ret) can only get off a couple heals at a time, then wait for their mana to regenerate over the course of like 20 seconds back to full mana. A shadowpriest can get off more heals in a row if they have a full mana pool, but go watch any shadowpriest stream of a top end spriest - even without healing they go OOM 3-4 minutes into a fight, faster if they heal. Once OOM, I don't regain 6% of my mana back every second or w/e like a ret does - my mana comes from VT - that spell people kick all the time, that is frequently dispelled since its covering fear/silence - and returns 2% every 3 seconds per application. Now, I can apply VT to 2-3 targets, but dot cleaving hardly works now for pressure - so putting dots up on more than 2 targets spreads my pressure out too much over swapping between two dotted targets. If a DPS is sitting on spriest, VT uptime drops dramatically and healing usage jumps way up - causing us to OOM faster still.

    Regarding "defending shadowpriests isn't worth it", it is, if what you're accusing us of isn't remotely based on reality (which it isnt, like I already showed with you claiming 300k hybrid heals, when in reality we heal for 55k - 1/6th of that). Mana isn't really relevant to most hybrid DPS - to Shadow it very, very much is. In fact, most arena games my team loses occur after I've gone OOM and my pressure, heals, dispels, and burst all disappear (that or our rogue gets blown up, QQ friends who still play rogues make me cry).
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-11-19 at 05:58 AM.
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  15. #55
    It is my strong belief that if Blizzard wants to nerf hybrid healing and healer dps in arena/RBGs, they should add that as part of the healing debuff.

    I think they flubbed dps/heal balance pretty hard this time around, and since they already have a work-around for it, they should just use that, and then get around to fixing it for real later. But just picking on pvp power is an inelegant solution, and affects the specs unequally. And what if it becomes optimal for a shadow priest to wear, say, BIS heroic pve belt and boots, and then upgrade them with valor, or something?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 06:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    (that or our rogue gets blown up, QQ friends who still play rogues make me cry).
    Blame Blizzard devs for not implementing anything resembling a class for us. They can change, they're the ones who suck!

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post

    Regarding "defending shadowpriests isn't worth it", it is, if what you're accusing us of isn't remotely based on reality (which it isnt, like I already showed with you claiming 300k hybrid heals, when in reality we heal for 55k - 1/6th of that). Mana isn't really relevant to most hybrid DPS - to Shadow it very, very much is. In fact, most arena games my team loses occur after I've gone OOM and my pressure, heals, dispels, and burst all disappear (that or our rogue gets blown up, QQ friends who still play rogues make me cry).
    hahaha.

    the only time i've seen an spriest oom it was after we had forced his healer oom and the only healing output was from him. an almost 150k PoM tick ruined our bust on their warlock.

    heres the thing.

    melee hybrids have to make the decision to heal or deal damage, their heals require ramp up or resources that they would otherwise use to deal damage or control someone.

    think of it this way, the only way you can heal is with your shadow orbs. you have three orbs and you can spend them for a large heal, or you can spend them to hit some one with devouring plague. you have to sacrifice a huge part of your damage output to heal. your heal requires time to ramp up, and to share resources with you damaging abilities.

    thats what its like to be a melee hybrid.

    as it stands right now, spriests are not punished resource wise, they don't have to sacrifice any offensive resources, their mana pools are massive enough that they can support repeatedly putting out large heals which the melee hybrids can not, their healing by the numbers is stronger and they can sustain it for longer under pressure.

    spriests have better damage overall, better control and better heals then all the melee hybrids. they need to be controlled because they are hands down the best caster right now.

    melee hybrids don't have great damage, their healing isn't sustained, and isn't designed to be sustained and since this is world of you can't do that while fleeingcraft, their control is often inferior too.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  17. #57
    Only problematic hybrid is SPriests, so instead of a targeted nerf they do a blanket nerf to all hybrids. Cool.

  18. #58
    I wonder how it got to the point where non-hybrids (as in thouse with no healing specc) ended up doing more healing than enh/ret/feral etc. It just feels like it has gone to far. In my mind the healing/support they provide should be superior to pures. Most pure classes have better burst/sustained damage already and cc, anyways.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    So, I have around 400k hp, 10% of that is 40k, so 360k hp he did in 2 casts? Assuming he has From Darkness, Comes Light (15% chance to proc on Flash heal to make the next Flash Heal instant) and 11% crit (like I do), and a Flash Heal heals for 55k non-crit, 110k critical. Assuming all crits, 3 crits would heal for 330k - not enough to full heal him (close though) but it would actually require 4 crits to full heal. To do that in 2 'casts' requires double FDCL procs. The odds of all that occurring are .0003% (not 3 percent, but 3 one thousandths of one percent).

    Of course, it's possible you're exaggerating for dramatic effect
    And of course it's likely you're down playing shadow healing because you're an shadow. I'ven been playing 2on2 with an shadow myself, the ammount of healing they can do makes them laugh because it's way to high. Mana problems, low heals and other problems you're talking about seem to be pretty non existant to them. Hell our disc even plays shadow now because he heals just as much as shadow while doing far more damage, since it's an PvP specc.

    DPS healing in many cases is to strong right now, shadow is merely by far the worst offender. And if it comes down to pure math, I ought to do far less healing then I actually do myself. Because you're not taking all the possible buffs and circumstances into consideration.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by guff View Post
    Most MAGES classes have better burst/sustained damage already and cc, anyways.
    Fixed that for you friend

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