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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    hahaha.

    the only time i've seen an spriest oom it was after we had forced his healer oom and the only healing output was from him. an almost 150k PoM tick ruined our bust on their warlock.
    Spriests can and do go oom from healing.

    heres the thing.

    melee hybrids have to make the decision to heal or deal damage, their heals require ramp up or resources that they would otherwise use to deal damage or control someone.
    For a caster, casting time is that resource. Spriests will certainly oom themselves if they continue to heal.

  2. #62
    Yup, can't wait for my Windwalker Monk to be even more worthless.

    Chi Wave nerfed by 25% on top of PvP Power nerf. Yay uselessness!

  3. #63
    Imo things will be ok if blizzard actually nerf pvp power as mentioned BUT give % increase in healing for hybirds, every hybrid in talent specialization.

    P.S for the name of all wow gods just remove that stat and let us be huppy again,tons of thread about a single stat? jesus

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by akon View Post
    Imo things will be ok if blizzard actually nerf pvp power as mentioned BUT give % increase in healing for hybirds, every hybrid in talent specialization.

    P.S for the name of all wow gods just remove that stat and let us be huppy again,tons of thread about a single stat? jesus
    I read this is "Nerf the non hybrid classes' healing while keeping mine the same." Is that correct?

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  5. #65
    Oh gee...
    If you take away the offhealing from a ret, what on earth is he supposed to do in Arenas when his abilities is on CD. We got NO dmg when we can't pop Wings, Guardian or HA. So the only thing we can do if we didnt kill a target in that burst period, is to keep our self and our team up while we wait for the next burst to be ready.

    We need our strong FoL every 15sec or what so, and WoG sacrifices every dmg we got to do (Need 3 HoPo to cast a strong one, so it's that or a TV wich are our only hard hitting ability when we dont got wings up).

    Meh, if this happens I unsub. I'm only focusing on PvP this expansion, if they take away that from me I quit - been playing my paladin for 8 years now, realy dont want to quit or go holy when I dont like it.

  6. #66
    This proposed change is not well thought out and will lead to some very serious imbalanced in pvp. All we can do is wait it out and see what happens.

  7. #67
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    hahaha.

    the only time i've seen an spriest oom it was after we had forced his healer oom and the only healing output was from him. an almost 150k PoM tick ruined our bust on their warlock.
    Prayer of Mending ticks for 15k, I'd think that was a typo - but given your past posts and the obvious context, I think you are just making things up (clearly you didn't get shut down by a 15k heal). A 50% nerf to hybrid healing will turn prayer of mending into 10k per bounce, a mana cost nerf on top of that is totally unnecessary.

    If that's the only time you have seen a priest OOM, am I to conclude you either a) don't play against spriests who use Mass Dispel / Halo (which each cost like 1/6th of our mana pet cast), or b) that you don't see spriests very often.


    ---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 11:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    And of course it's likely you're down playing shadow healing because you're an shadow. I'ven been playing 2on2 with an shadow myself, the ammount of healing they can do makes them laugh because it's way to high. Mana problems, low heals and other problems you're talking about seem to be pretty non existant to them. Hell our disc even plays shadow now because he heals just as much as shadow while doing far more damage, since it's an PvP specc.

    DPS healing in many cases is to strong right now, shadow is merely by far the worst offender. And if it comes down to pure math, I ought to do far less healing then I actually do myself. Because you're not taking all the possible buffs and circumstances into consideration.
    I don't think I'm downplaying it at all - I've said repeatedly that it's too strong, and I've been saying pvp power was going to be OP since closed beta. I proposed (over a month before blizzard announced it) and am advocating a 50% effective nerf to hybrid healing through the removal of pvp power double dipping for hybrids as both a damage and healing bonus.

    What I am opposed to is kosechi making claims that are so absurdly removed from fact (ie. claiming 300k flash heals or 10% hp to full in 2 casts, or 150k prayer of mending ticks - off by factors between 6-fold and 10-fold, and in the case of 2 casts to full having a 0.0003% chance of occuring). A mana cost nerf to shadow's heals are totally unncessary on top of the 50% effective healing nerf that is going live in 5.1.

    Edit: Also, your disc priest doesn't play shadow for bigger heals, that's also flat out false - disc is very capable of big heals right now - the reason disc is near-nonexistent in arenas right now is that the loss of Focused Will (5.0) made them the frailest healing spec in the game, while already being the least mobile healing spec in the game: making them no longer viable. The return of Focused Will in 5.1 will also see a lot of current shadowpriests go back to discipline when it becomes viable once more.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-11-19 at 07:47 PM.
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  8. #68
    I in all honesty think dps shouldn't heal all that much to begin with. Something like the current recuperation of rogues seems to be appropriate, everything above that is simply to much. Yes I know that some healers such as Paladins can put out "decent" damage, but it's not as bad as dps self heal.

  9. #69
    Kosechi, i think you should just quit this discussion, because clearly you are a butthurt ret that needs to reroll shadow to learn the truth. You knowledge of shadow is CLEARLY lacking. Everything you are saying is wrong!


    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    defending shadowpriests isn't worth it. its not JUST the healing that makes them so powerful right now. its a combination of their healing, control and damage output.

    mana isn't really a limiting factor on their heals, and they no longer even have to sacrifice the damage reduction of shadowform to use a number of heals ( why did they need that glyph? i don't know)

    a simple way to fix it would to just increase the mana costs of their heals so they can only get 3-4 off before their mana pool is obliterated, just like the melee hybrids have to deal with.
    Shadows damage and control is not any stronger that any other class. Look at lock and mage!. It really is just the healing that is OP.

    Mana IS a limiting factor, hardly present to any other but shadow! And they DO need to lose the shadowform to heal. They DO need that glyph.

    A simple 'fix' is NOT to increase mana but to lower the amount as i said before, as they are already doing.

    If they would implement that, you'd need to give them a judgement type of mana regen. Shadoworb takes3 times longer to get than holy power and you sacrifice damage to CC instead of healing with them.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Olianda View Post
    It's moderate when you consider that warriors can practically two-shot someone with enough stacks. It's what, eighteen seconds before a paladin can hit three stacks?
    Maybe it was in Cataclysm. Now it takes 3 GCDs.
    I'm not a native English speaker, and yet, I don't suck at English. The argument "English is not my mother tongue" doesn't actually give you an excuse to do so.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    I in all honesty think dps shouldn't heal all that much to begin with. Something like the current recuperation of rogues seems to be appropriate, everything above that is simply to much. Yes I know that some healers such as Paladins can put out "decent" damage, but it's not as bad as dps self heal.
    Are you basing this on the fact that recuperation is entirely negligible, along with rogue rep?


    Recup as it stands needs a pretty fat buff. But there's room between undertuned abilities like recup and ret pally burst heals or spriest sustained heals.

  12. #72
    A lot of uninformed opinions in here :S

    Thanks Yvaelle for trying to talk some sense.

    Apologies if I missed someone else clarifying, but the glyph that you all keep mentioning only allows for the use of Leap of Faith, Renew and PoM in Shadowform - whereas the main heal that everyone is complaining about is flash heal.

    I agree that this needs to be addressed, and realise that I'll keep playing regardless of outcome - but it is slightly annoying that other issues (warriors, warlock defences, mage control) seem to have gone on the back-burner whilst we fight this one out.

    Quick edit: Also, the last I heard - Prayer of Mending was unaffected by PvP power - not sure if they've hotfixed that though.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Prayer of Mending ticks for 15k, I'd think that was a typo - but given your past posts and the obvious context (clearly you didn't get shut down by a 15k heal), I have to ask: are you trolling me? A 50% nerf to hybrid healing will turn prayer of mending into 10k per bounce, a mana cost nerf on top of that is totally unnecessary.

    If that's the only time you have seen a priest OOM, am I to conclude you either a) don't play against spriests who use Mass Dispel / Halo (which each cost like 1/6th of our mana pet cast), or b) that you don't see spriests very often.


    ---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 11:06 AM ----------

    i give up. you obviously don't understand what i'm talking about. english isn't my first language, but i'm not sure how i could be much clearer.

    there needs to be a limiting factor on spriest healing, its NOT mana, the size of a caster mana pool allows them much greater sustained healing then a melee hybrid is capable of, and its certainly NOT a secondary combat resources.

    like i said. think about it if you can only heal with your shadow orbs. if you use combat resources to heal, you can't use it to deal damage. you need to have to make that decision. your heal has ramp up time so you have to use it intelligently.

    ramp time and resources expenditure is part of what makes the melee hybrid's heals balanced. but spreists are not subject to those limits.

    a ret can fire off a large heal every 12 or so seconds, an enhance shaman can fire of a medium heal every 5-7 seconds, thats an eternity in arena. an spriest can pump out large heals for significantly longer, with out ramp time delay.

    even if it DID oom the priest, the sustained output just isn't balanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiep View Post
    Kosechi, i think you should just quit this discussion, because clearly you are a butthurt ret that needs to reroll shadow to learn the truth. You knowledge of shadow is CLEARLY lacking. Everything you are saying is wrong!
    wow lol. are all shadowpriests such entitled scum? i've been playing one spec for nigh on 6 years, i'm not about to change because of some FoTM bullshit.

    well lets see, i've said spriest healing is not limited by mana, or combat resources, which is correct, i said they have very high rep, which is correct, i said they have high damage, which is correct, i said they have good control, which is correct.
    what exactly did i say that was wrong again?

    but i'm happy you think two specs with some of the lowest arena rep deserves to be nerfed to control a spec with one of the highest arena rep.

    they need to go in and specifically address shadowpriests, and leave the non problem specs alone.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  14. #74
    As a main shadow priest, I'm afraid losing scalling with PvP power will hurt us much more in 2-3 seasons. Damage will be much higher and healing may not even be worth the GCD for hybrids. Perhaps the scaling should be lower? Maybe 50% of the effect for off heals. Overall I think removing PvP from hybrids is a mistake. I think they should instead increase mana cost on direct heals, such as flash heal, by 50-100% for hybrids. This way they can still play defensive for a few seconds with decent heals, but then quickly have to go back to dps as they oom.

  15. #75
    So hybrid nerf means buff to lock, mage, warriors which were 90% of the dps classes used at the battle.net championships.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Highmoon7 View Post
    As a main shadow priest, I'm afraid losing scalling with PvP power will hurt us much more in 2-3 seasons. Damage will be much higher and healing may not even be worth the GCD for hybrids. Perhaps the scaling should be lower? Maybe 50% of the effect for off heals. Overall I think removing PvP from hybrids is a mistake. I think they should instead increase mana cost on direct heals, such as flash heal, by 50-100% for hybrids. This way they can still play defensive for a few seconds with decent heals, but then quickly have to go back to dps as they oom.
    I like that suggestion, mana classes should simply go oom, especially if they are hybrids that offheal... its so simple it works in both ways the hybrid is still fun to play and no longer out of hand.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    there needs to be a limiting factor on spriest healing, its NOT mana, the size of a caster mana pool allows them much greater sustained healing then a melee hybrid is capable of, and its certainly NOT a secondary combat resources.
    Are you surprised that a caster hybrid is able to do more sustained healing, with a real mana pool, than a melee hybrid healer, with a small mana pool?

    Why do you ignore the other substantial advantages that melee hybrids have:

    1)- Higher burst healing (especially in the case of rets)
    2)- Powerful interactions with cooldowns- very strong against enemy teams that rely on a burst phase to win.
    3)- Heals that are largely free from interrupt effects
    4)- Heals that are largely both instant cast and with instant effects, allowing you to bait enemies into overcommitting, and giving you the "last say" on what happens.

    a ret can fire off a large heal every 12 or so seconds, an enhance shaman can fire of a medium heal every 5-7 seconds, thats an eternity in arena. an spriest can pump out large heals for significantly longer, with out ramp time delay.
    But what if you have a warrior and a mage on that spriest? Does he get to output amazing sustained healing then?

    wow lol. are all shadowpriests such entitled scum? i've been playing one spec for nigh on 6 years, i'm not about to change because of some FoTM bullshit.
    It's great that the only thing you have capitalized is "FoTM". Possibly ever.

  18. #78
    Just make PVP power give only half to the ''off-spec''. Nerf that you notice but not overboard. Blizzard always does nothing or goes balls to the walls.

  19. #79
    I play with a couple of Shadow Priests and they agree their healing is insane. A lot of you need to take a step back, stop focusing on numbers and think "What do Spriests bring to the table in comparison to other Hybrids?".

    This nerf affects ALL hybrids when the only real problem is Shadow Priests. I don't see a huge influx of Boomkins in 3v3 because their healing is ridiculous. Ret representation if anything has gone down from last season (not sure of numbers), because their offhealing isn't as strong. Ele is a joke and I am yet to see a Windwalker in Arena.

    Spriests have amazing sustained damage, amazing CC and such good support for healers (which is arguably needed in the current state of the game). They can defensively dispel, offensively dispel, lifeswap, Halo stealth classes out (which can completely ruin a lot of mage comp openers), heal an insane amount (it may oom them, but the healing is dumb, don't even try to defend it) and on top of all this they bring, lifegrip, disperse and an offensive dispel protection.

    I know Spriests will say i'm just listing the good bits of their class, and it can be done for every class, but how many other hybrids can straight up spin a game around in a couple of seconds because of their ability to alter their teams health pools?

  20. #80
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    You're concerned with the wrong problem. The problem isn't that PVP power is being nerfed, it's that the other Hybrid classes are so bad that they cannot function without it. Send the PVP power nerf through, then fix the underlying problem, which is Class Imbalance.

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