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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    wow lol. are all shadowpriests such entitled scum? i've been playing one spec for nigh on 6 years, i'm not about to change because of some FoTM bullshit.
    No, only towards you. The reason you need to reroll, is to get the hang of the class before you suggest these outrageous nerfs of yours, not to mainswap.

    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    well lets see, i've said spriest healing is not limited by mana, or combat resources, which is correct
    No it's not, we are limited mana, as has been said several times already. Moonkins and Ele are not.
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    i said they have very high rep, which is correct
    i said they have high damage, which is correct
    i said they have good control, which is correct.
    You said that it was OP, not just "good", and i said that they are not the best in comparison to others.
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    but i'm happy you think two specs with some of the lowest arena rep deserves to be nerfed to control a spec with one of the highest arena rep.
    Self/Offspec healing shouldn't be where it is for any class, if those two specs are weak they should be buffed in other ways. Nonetheless i never spoke about that in the first way, i simply defended the fact that this nerf is enough for spriest, while you spoke about making a caster only be able to cast 4 heals and be OOM, or spend Shadoworbs, that you already have to waste on CC and that normally takes 24 seconds to get 3 of.

    Its this crap that makes me want you to actually play one before you say something like this. That and all these false accusations of 300k heals and what not that Yvaelle mentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    they need to go in and specifically address shadowpriests, and leave the non problem specs alone.
    No, this nerf is fair. Buff the other specs where they are lacking, in other ways but healing, instead.

  2. #82
    Does this decrease the healing from chi wave, expel harm, and healing sphere as a WW monk? If so, Chi wave will be the new healing sphere since CW is also getting a nerf, but HS getting a slight buff. And expel harm's current healing doesn't exactly heal you that much compared to any of the other hybrids

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Are you surprised that a caster hybrid is able to do more sustained healing, with a real mana pool, than a melee hybrid healer, with a small mana pool?

    Why do you ignore the other substantial advantages that melee hybrids have:

    1)- Higher burst healing (especially in the case of rets)
    2)- Powerful interactions with cooldowns- very strong against enemy teams that rely on a burst phase to win.
    3)- Heals that are largely free from interrupt effects
    4)- Heals that are largely both instant cast and with instant effects, allowing you to bait enemies into overcommitting, and giving you the "last say" on what happens.
    1. longer ramp up time. very vulnerable to offensive dispels. often costs resources i could have used offensively.
    2. long cooldowns that mean you have to sacrifice using those cooldowns for damage and pressure.
    3. 'you can't do that while silenced' ' you can't do that while fleeing' ' you can't do that while stunned' interrupt effects are not only the traditional 'kick' effects.


    But what if you have a warrior and a mage on that spriest? Does he get to output amazing sustained healing then?
    a warrior can lock down a ret a lot easier then they can a shadow priest lol. ret self peels and defenses are also incredibly weak. in that situation it is a lot more dangerous to be the ret.



    It's great that the only thing you have capitalized is "FoTM". Possibly ever.
    i'm sorry my typing does not meet your obviously very high standards.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  4. #84
    I have been a 90 ret since the start of xpac and have been floating around 1900ish MMR.
    I see about 1-2 team with a ret on my BG above 2k+MMR.

    The damage I do is terrible outside CDs, my CC is a little lax compared to other melee classes, and basically like someone else mentioned, all i do outside CDs is beat on someone like a moron just to keep my team up through the DFs and 200K HS. if this is nerfed i am gonna ask for my money back for the xpac, cause i have yet to have fun in the arena setting this xpac, and this lazy ass attempt to balance the game is robbing me of the money i pay for the service.

    But i will at least hold out til the patch is gonna be released before i cry my eyes out and unsub.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    1. longer ramp up time. very vulnerable to offensive dispels. often costs resources i could have used offensively.
    The "resources" argument is way too thin. Mostly a caster's biggest resource is just time spent casting. Ramp up time is arguable, especially with as fast as some classes can generate resources during cooldowns. These heals are still a much better deal than, say, recuperate, ramp up time or not, and they usually.

    2. long cooldowns that mean you have to sacrifice using those cooldowns for damage and pressure.
    No, you don't have to. If the enemy team relies on burst to win, then this is a smart plan. I didn't say "ret pallies have perma wings".

    3. 'you can't do that while silenced' ' you can't do that while fleeing' ' you can't do that while stunned' interrupt effects are not only the traditional 'kick' effects.
    I'm pretty sure these things work on the caster hybrids too. The only caster that is essentially immune to stun is a mage, and their healing is sharply limited.


    i'm sorry my typing does not meet your obviously very high standards.
    Use the shift key for:

    Proper nouns.
    The beginning of sentences.
    The pronoun "I".

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    The "resources" argument is way too thin. Mostly a caster's biggest resource is just time spent casting. Ramp up time is arguable, especially with as fast as some classes can generate resources during cooldowns. These heals are still a much better deal than, say, recuperate, ramp up time or not, and they usually.
    the big ret heal takes around 12 seconds to ramp up. the small heal takes 3-5 seconds. ramp up is a big deal. 12 seconds is an eternity in pvp. and thats not taking into account if some one has been purging those stacks off. its a lot harder to manage then just dropping out of form and hitting flash heal.

    No, you don't have to. If the enemy team relies on burst to win, then this is a smart plan. I didn't say "ret pallies have perma wings".
    a lot of casters have much shorter cooldowns then the cooldowns i have access too. maybe i'm just narrow minded in viewing everything from the comp i play. if i use wings to keep my team up in during burst, dark soul is going to come up before i wings is, and my shaman will have to blow something to survive that.
    I'm pretty sure these things work on the caster hybrids too. The only caster that is essentially immune to stun is a mage, and their healing is sharply limited.
    its a lot easier to land stuns and fears on melee hybrids then it is on casters who have range and easier access to LoS.

    Use the shift key for:

    Proper nouns.
    The beginning of sentences.
    The pronoun "I".
    why?

    nitpicking the punctuation and capitalization of some one who obviously has a perfectly decent grasp of the english language because you don't like their opinion is pedantic and narrow minded of you.

    i don't see you correcting all the people using 'ur' in this thread.
    Last edited by kosechi; 2012-11-19 at 07:59 PM.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  7. #87
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandoh View Post
    I have been a 90 ret since the start of xpac and have been floating around 1900ish MMR.
    I see about 1-2 team with a ret on my BG above 2k+MMR.

    The damage I do is terrible outside CDs, my CC is a little lax compared to other melee classes, and basically like someone else mentioned, all i do outside CDs is beat on someone like a moron just to keep my team up through the DFs and 200K HS. if this is nerfed i am gonna ask for my money back for the xpac, cause i have yet to have fun in the arena setting this xpac, and this lazy ass attempt to balance the game is robbing me of the money i pay for the service.

    But i will at least hold out til the patch is gonna be released before i cry my eyes out and unsub.
    Right, but I think you know that the burst healing capability of ret paladins is too high - the problem with rets is that they have been 'balanced' around having massive instant heals for over an expansion now - so presumably when the loss of pvp power makes ret burst healing less impactful - blizzard will then ask "why is ret sustained damage comparatively low outside of their cooldowns?" - and for the first time in years the answer won't be "because they have massive instant burst heals".

    That pvp power scales too well, especially for hybrids, is a recognizable problem Blizzard is correcting - that other problems also exist, and have existed so long that Blizzard has been balancing around the presence of these problems - is a separate issue that needs to be resolved with a separate solution. That solution would very likely include buffs to hybrids in places where previously they couldn't be buffed because the combination of buffs + their existing healing capability would have made them too strong.

    Balancing rets or enhancement shamans using pvp power is a case of using the wrong tool for the job - nerf pvp power - and then buff any classes that need it.
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by iWolfBanei View Post
    This nerf affects ALL hybrids when the only real problem is Shadow Priests. I don't see a huge influx of Boomkins in 3v3 because their healing is ridiculous. Ret representation if anything has gone down from last season (not sure of numbers), because their offhealing isn't as strong. Ele is a joke and I am yet to see a Windwalker in Arena.
    What you do see, however, is Resto Druids being able to put out some serious DPS when they have Heart of the Wild up. Not sure which of the attacks is doing more burst for them though, melee through Kitty or DD spells. Just my two cents.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    so presumably when the loss of pvp power makes ret burst healing less impactful - blizzard will then ask "why is ret sustained damage comparatively low outside of their cooldowns?" - and for the first time in years the answer won't be "because they have massive instant burst heals".
    I think what people might be upset about is the fact that Blizzard probably won't think like that, and if they do, it'll be in the NEXT patch after this one, and it's mostly because of Shadow Priests being overtuned.

    Yes, I agree that a nerf to healing and a buff to utility / damage would be a good change for most hybrids, but if they don't do the buff and nerf at the same time then all hybrids will be ruined for what is likely to be the entire season. What people would RATHER see is a nerf to Shadow Priest offhealing, and their own classes left alone because most hybrids are in a somewhat-okay spot right now, and for a lot of them the healing they do is their main defensive. (See: Rets, Boomkins, Ele's).

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaderas View Post
    What you do see, however, is Resto Druids being able to put out some serious DPS when they have Heart of the Wild up. Not sure which of the attacks is doing more burst for them though, melee through Kitty or DD spells. Just my two cents.
    I think what people might be upset about is the fact that Blizzard probably won't think like that, and if they do, it'll be in the NEXT patch after this one, and it's mostly because of Shadow Priests being overtuned. [/quote]

    It's already been nerfed, and HotW can only be used once per arena game (6min CD) and honestly, it's not that much of a big deal anymore. Resto Druids do less damage than Paladins, Shamans and Priests over the course of a 2-3 minute game if the other classes put in as much time as the Resto does, and HotW is almost never used in 3s or 5s.

    Also, casting spells does way more damage but it can be kicked and locks them on nature tree (i.e, no healing), so I still do HotW in cat form unless i'm 100% safe from interrupts.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-11-19 at 10:59 PM.

  10. #90
    Honestly, hybrid off heals REALLY shouldn't be as powerful as they currently are. They should be able to make a difference, yes. When the healer gets CCd in 3s a hybrid class should be able to offheal to help keeping someone alive, however this should tax greatly on his mana (like it did back in tbc). And for the love of god remove all that crappy healing all the pure DPSers for some reason have acquired. There's a reason why there're healers, dpsers and tanks. Healers are the ones who're supposed to heal.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Balancing rets or enhancement shamans using pvp power is a case of using the wrong tool for the job - nerf pvp power - and then buff any classes that need it.
    they are not going to buff ret damage or enhance damage, that would upset pve. both do mediocre damage in pve and thats where blizz wants them to stay.

    its possible to tune their healing through sword of light or healing storm, but i think that would also have potential ramifications on pve.

    pvppower was supposed to be their tuning knob for damage and healing in pvp. why they can't tune one class specifically and leave another one alone is beyond me.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  12. #92
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iWolfBanei
    I think what people might be upset about is the fact that Blizzard probably won't think like that, and if they do, it'll be in the NEXT patch after this one, and it's mostly because of Shadow Priests being overtuned.
    It's really not just spriests though, ret, feral and boomkin heals right now are way too good (as well as spriests). Enhancement healing storm procs are quite good but limited obviously by enhancements other weaknesses and the rate maelstorm stacks build. Elemental has very strong healing capability as well, but is also held back by other class weaknesses. In general, ALL hybrid healing is too high - and the pvp power nerf will fix it across the board (because it is the culprit that caused it).

    Blizzard will think like that, but it will likely not occur until after 5.1 - I agree - unfortunately, that's just how blizzard works. They let things go overpowered or underpowered until its super obvious what needs to be done, and then they wait awhile to see if any magical pixies invent a workaround - and if that doesnt happen they make changes. It's not their way to do big buffs and nerfs in the same patch (ignoring pre-expansion redesign patches).
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  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    (because it is the culprit that caused it).
    It's NOT though. CLASS DESIGN caused that "issue". It's presumably INTENDED in pve, but the pvp effects have been high.

    Whether a pvp power nerf addresses it or not, the issue isn't "pvp power scales heals on hybrids too well". The issue is "hybrid healers keep too much healing in their offspecs for pvp to be balanced". Your suggestion (now GC's suggestion) is a bandaid- "we'll pick a stat that cleverly is only on the pvp gear, and nerf how that stat interacts with the broken class abilities". That doesn't fix the issue, it just creates a separate pve and pvp setup- one you can even get around in certain instances with Int, edge cases that won't even ever be tested.

    And this MAY be an issue in pve, even if intended. You heard vent yesterday, with G3 talking about how they got Blade Lord with heavy raid cooldowns and hybrid heals to supplement a 2 heal crew. If it becomes too desired to bring that stuff, pures are out of a pve job.

    I think they should use their bandaid nerf debuff to healing to address this as well, until they get around to remixing the classes in a way that makes sense. But your suggestion works too- you can simply argue that pvp power is meant to offset resilience, and the hybrid dps guys are double dipping, but I don't think it's that simple.

    It's not their way to do big buffs and nerfs in the same patch (ignoring pre-expansion redesign patches).
    Agreed.

    Also note that this isn't even announced for 5.1, which at this point couldn't really be any sooner than 12/4, so unless we see a PTR with this and other pvp changes by wednesday, I'm not very hopeful.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Palatinus View Post
    Seems about right when warriors are critting 300k+ heroic strikes off the gcd. Oh wait that isnt being fixed (at least in 'patch notes').
    It is being fixed. Heroic Strike cannot crit for 300k without the full 5 stacks of Taste for Blood. Knowing that you have to grant some reward for catching someone and having 5 stacks of a Proc Buff. Thus a 300k crit. The fix is that in the next patch Taste for Blood can only stack 3 times. A fourty % nerf of the potential of Heroic Strikes + Taste for Blood proc's. That sounds like a fix. Let the 300k Crit go, it was a fluke, that won;t be possible, just let it go.

  15. #95
    TfB is being nerfed to 3 stack max? Where do you see this, because http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/7540458 doesn't seem to mention it.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    It's really not just spriests though, ret, feral and boomkin heals right now are way too good (as well as spriests). Enhancement healing storm procs are quite good but limited obviously by enhancements other weaknesses and the rate maelstorm stacks build. Elemental has very strong healing capability as well, but is also held back by other class weaknesses. In general, ALL hybrid healing is too high - and the pvp power nerf will fix it across the board (because it is the culprit that caused it).
    what is this? last season? ret heals in no way compare to shadow's heals. they are also handicapped by their limited control ( enhance has better control, but weaker healing) and their mediocre damage. shadow has both good damage and control on top of superior healing.

    rets have spec specific mechanics to support offhealing, shadow does not.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  17. #97
    Spriest mage sync is ridiculous atm, even as KFC landing kills VS mage/rshaman(rdruid)/spriest is pretty ridiculous, i need to outplay them far harder than they need to outplay me, i trap, get's md'd on a 0.5 sec cast or something ridiculous like that, the aoe fears are too strong, the "smoke bomb" effect on them is ridiculous, this new HP swap thing coupled with dispursion, The fact that spriests even have MD is shocking, offensive dispels are too OP in that regard, so is life grip.

    Today i queued VS a R1 ele + 2.2 + rdruid and spriest and i played my ass off, even outplayed them at times and still lost, while their kill was a silence on my healer from the spriest and a ridiculous amount of burst on me(out of ascendance) 50k mind blast, 70k ele blast, 50k lava burst with 25k echo or w.e it's called 70k fulmination, Spriest is ridiculous with it's toolkit atm and can top team mates fairly easily, if you don't think it's bad then you need to take a hard long look @ what you think is balanced.

  18. #98
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    what is this? last season? ret heals in no way compare to shadow's heals. they are also handicapped by their limited control ( enhance has better control, but weaker healing) and their mediocre damage. shadow has both good damage and control on top of superior healing.

    rets have spec specific mechanics to support offhealing, shadow does not.
    Rets don't effectively have mana, Shadow does. Ret heals aren't interruptible because they are instant, Shadow's are interruptible because they have cast times. Ret's dont have to remove their armor to cast, Shadowpriests have to drop Shadowform (our armor) to heal - when we do, we become one of the most frail specs in the game (0% passive magic or physical reduction, wearing cloth armor). If you see a shadowpriest throwing flash heals, and you swap to them - you will shut down the overwhelming majority of their self-healing instantly, and either force them back into shadowform (costing them multiple gcds and mana to no effect) or continue to deal big damage to them until they go back into form (if they try to stay out and heal, which many won't).

    If a teammate is dying and a ret just presses WoG and goes back to dealing damage, they have only given up a single GCD of their weakest ability (or even just a blank GCD in their rotation) - if a shadowpriest is in the same situation, they stop kiting (stand still) begin to cast heals - usually a few of them in succession - and then spend the next gcd returning to shadowform - in the process giving up 25-30% of their extremely valuable mana - and GCDs of which we are capped (in both pve and pvp, we have too many things to do and not enough time - which is why haste is so incredibly valuable for us, for lowering our GCD - this is not true of all hybrids, rets being a prime example).

    The cost is very different for shadow versus holy power / selfless healer stacks for rets, but there is a steep cost to healing. And again, I'm not saying hybrid healing isn't too strong - it is - but the pvp power fix is going to remedy that. If we need to talk about buffing enh or ret afterward that should be on the table - but I think (since your obviously ret at this point) you will find that when the currently imbalanced classes get nerfs in 5.1, the representation of the comparatively weaker melee is going to rise fairly significantly.

    Right now, warriors are better than rets - hands down - without question. But there are two ways to remedy that, one is to buff rets, the other is to nerf warriors. Everyone would rather get buffs than see another class they don't really care about get nerfs - but ultimately the effect is the same - when rets and warriors are equally valuable to arena teams - rets will see proportional representation (or a rise approaching that).
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  19. #99
    I'm realy fearing that I need to put ret on the shelf next patch.. : / Without the burst offheal I got no one would want a ret in their team, so many other good classes to use insted...

    Time to reroll or get used to holy roflstomp again >.<

  20. #100
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nonslid View Post
    I'm realy fearing that I need to put ret on the shelf next patch.. : / Without the burst offheal I got no one would want a ret in their team, so many other good classes to use insted...

    Time to reroll or get used to holy roflstomp again >.<
    Try Ret / Rdruid / Warrior IMO - focus on repentances and freedoms on warrior for pressure, and when your cooldowns are up - score kills. I think that will be a very viable comp between the roots/cyclones/repentances/totally unpeelable warrior/warrior+ret burst. Ret/Rdruid/DK could also definitely work - with DKs bringing more pressure (and freedoms keeping them on target), and necrotic stacks into ret burst is probably even more frightening than warrior+ret burst.
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