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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Rets don't effectively have mana, Shadow does. Ret heals aren't interruptible because they are instant, Shadow's are interruptible because they have cast times. Ret's dont have to remove their armor to cast, Shadowpriests have to drop Shadowform (our armor) to heal - when we do, we become one of the most frail specs in the game (0% passive magic or physical reduction, wearing cloth armor). If you see a shadowpriest throwing flash heals, and you swap to them - you will shut down the overwhelming majority of their self-healing instantly, and either force them back into shadowform (costing them multiple gcds and mana to no effect) or continue to deal big damage to them until they go back into form (if they try to stay out and heal, which many won't).

    If a teammate is dying and a ret just presses WoG and goes back to dealing damage, they have only given up a single GCD of their weakest ability (or even just a blank GCD in their rotation) - if a shadowpriest is in the same situation, they stop kiting (stand still) begin to cast heals - usually a few of them in succession - and then spend the next gcd returning to shadowform - in the process giving up 25-30% of their extremely valuable mana - and GCDs of which we are capped (in both pve and pvp, we have too many things to do and not enough time - which is why haste is so incredibly valuable for us, for lowering our GCD - this is not true of all hybrids, rets being a prime example).

    The cost is very different for shadow versus holy power / selfless healer stacks for rets, but there is a steep cost to healing. And again, I'm not saying hybrid healing isn't too strong - it is - but the pvp power fix is going to remedy that. If we need to talk about buffing enh or ret afterward that should be on the table - but I think (since your obviously ret at this point) you will find that when the currently imbalanced classes get nerfs in 5.1, the representation of the comparatively weaker melee is going to rise fairly significantly.

    Right now, warriors are better than rets - hands down - without question. But there are two ways to remedy that, one is to buff rets, the other is to nerf warriors. Everyone would rather get buffs than see another class they don't really care about get nerfs - but ultimately the effect is the same - when rets and warriors are equally valuable to arena teams - rets will see proportional representation (or a rise approaching that).
    Not sure how your trying to defend spriest off healing just because another spec is better, if spriests had the same off healing as S11 there would be no issue imo, Rets are balanced around huge off heals at a cost to damage, spriests were not intended to have these huge heals that make them able to take on the role of healer.
    Spriests can literally babysit a team so hard with off heals + MD it is beyond a joke.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Rets don't effectively have mana, Shadow does. Ret heals aren't interruptible because they are instant, Shadow's are interruptible because they have cast times. Ret's dont have to remove their armor to cast, Shadowpriests have to drop Shadowform (our armor) to heal - when we do, we become one of the most frail specs in the game (0% passive magic or physical reduction, wearing cloth armor). If you see a shadowpriest throwing flash heals, and you swap to them - you will shut down the overwhelming majority of their self-healing instantly, and either force them back into shadowform (costing them multiple gcds and mana to no effect) or continue to deal big damage to them until they go back into form (if they try to stay out and heal, which many won't).

    If a teammate is dying and a ret just presses WoG and goes back to dealing damage, they have only given up a single GCD of their weakest ability (or even just a blank GCD in their rotation) - if a shadowpriest is in the same situation, they stop kiting (stand still) begin to cast heals - usually a few of them in succession - and then spend the next gcd returning to shadowform - in the process giving up 25-30% of their extremely valuable mana - and GCDs of which we are capped (in both pve and pvp, we have too many things to do and not enough time - which is why haste is so incredibly valuable for us, for lowering our GCD - this is not true of all hybrids, rets being a prime example).

    The cost is very different for shadow versus holy power / selfless healer stacks for rets, but there is a steep cost to healing. And again, I'm not saying hybrid healing isn't too strong - it is - but the pvp power fix is going to remedy that. If we need to talk about buffing enh or ret afterward that should be on the table - but I think (since your obviously ret at this point) you will find that when the currently imbalanced classes get nerfs in 5.1, the representation of the comparatively weaker melee is going to rise fairly significantly.

    Right now, warriors are better than rets - hands down - without question. But there are two ways to remedy that, one is to buff rets, the other is to nerf warriors. Everyone would rather get buffs than see another class they don't really care about get nerfs - but ultimately the effect is the same - when rets and warriors are equally valuable to arena teams - rets will see proportional representation (or a rise approaching that).
    Given up 3 holy powers that we need to do damage, isnt "giving up a GCD for their weakest ability". We need Holy Power to cast Templars Verdict, wich is the only spell other than Hammer of Wrath that does any real dmg (Well maybe exorsism aswell).
    Dont got any numbers in my head now, but did some BGs to day (I got full PvP set and about 11k pvp power atm, armory isnt up to date for some reason). And my TV (Templars Verdict - 3 Holy Power use) crits for about 80-100k, it takes 3 GCD to get 3 holy power (If we got all spells ready, wich we dont always have because of low haste in PvP gear), then if we use those 3 HoPo on a heal for our teammates, we need to wait 3 GCDs more, wich will take even longer because now we got CDs on our abilities.

    When a ret uses his HoPo on heals, he nerfs his dmg to the ground. Selfless healer on the other hand is a GCD only use to trow of a 160-200k critt heal, but it takes 3 Judgements to get 3 stacks, wich takes about 15 seconds (? Not sure about how long the CD is atm). So we need 15-20 seconds to build up stacks to trow of one heal, then sacrifice a GCD to trow it off.

    If we want to do WoG heals, we need to sacrifice 3 GCDs, a high dmg spell (About 80-100k critt), and then 3 more GCDs before we can do that said dmg spell again. Wich put us in a 7 GCDs with no dmg output..

    But are the heals OP? Yes, they are very high and can be a life saver if used correctly. Can you prepare for it? Yes, watch the Rets Selfless Heal stacks, if he got 2-3 prepare for a high instant heal anymoment. The WoG isnt that easy to predict, but you know that if you put out enough pressoure on his team member and then force him to go heal mode you will force his teams dmg to the ground and then gain control.

    Just know how you play against classes and you can find ways around.

    Warrios Taste of Blood procs and Heroic Strike critts on the other hand, they hurt! Was talking with some friends on skype while they where doing arena, and they had full control over the battle, and was lining up CDs to do the final blow. Then a warrior on the enemy team had 4-5 stacks of ToB and pretty much oneshotted one of them x] omg
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  3. #103
    i don't think the nerf to pvp power will really bother me much on my Spriest.... i honestly get most of my heals from VE/Void shift.

    VE heals from whatever Damage i do. and Void shift is a % based heal....

    if i do have to flash heal... it costs like 18k mana.... we only have 100k mana.. so that's like 5 casts and i'm ooom.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by bigfootbigd View Post
    Does this decrease the healing from chi wave, expel harm, and healing sphere as a WW monk? If so, Chi wave will be the new healing sphere since CW is also getting a nerf, but HS getting a slight buff. And expel harm's current healing doesn't exactly heal you that much compared to any of the other hybrids
    To my knowledge, yes, it will.

    Chi Wave is going to be extremely poor after 5.1 if nothing changes. 25% nerf and PvP Power nerf is going to vastly decrease its effectiveness.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Rets don't effectively have mana, Shadow does. Ret heals aren't interruptible because they are instant, Shadow's are interruptible because they have cast times. Ret's dont have to remove their armor to cast, Shadowpriests have to drop Shadowform (our armor) to heal - when we do, we become one of the most frail specs in the game (0% passive magic or physical reduction, wearing cloth armor). If you see a shadowpriest throwing flash heals, and you swap to them - you will shut down the overwhelming majority of their self-healing instantly, and either force them back into shadowform (costing them multiple gcds and mana to no effect) or continue to deal big damage to them until they go back into form (if they try to stay out and heal, which many won't).
    in a world of spellcasters and armor pen mechanics armor means nothing. rets have zero passive defenses, their defense against physical damage is nearly nonexistent, their entire survivability is based around active healing, they can be locked out of their defensive cooldowns just like a caster as well as their heals and a good number of their offensive abilities.

    you can prevent rets from gaining stacks by purging them off, and if a ret is forced to hardcast, which they do if they can't gain stacks, it will obliterate their mana pool further locking them out of their abilities.

    If a teammate is dying and a ret just presses WoG and goes back to dealing damage, they have only given up a single GCD of their weakest ability (or even just a blank GCD in their rotation) - if a shadowpriest is in the same situation, they stop kiting (stand still) begin to cast heals - usually a few of them in succession - and then spend the next gcd returning to shadowform - in the process giving up 25-30% of their extremely valuable mana - and GCDs of which we are capped (in both pve and pvp, we have too many things to do and not enough time -
    a ret has given up 3-5 seconds of resource gain time to hit word of glory, he won't be able to deal offensive damage for another 3-5 seconds , possibly up to 9 seconds if he has to refresh inquisition.

    selfless healer takes 8-12 seconds to ramp up.

    which is why haste is so incredibly valuable for us, for lowering our GCD - this is not true of all hybrids, rets being a prime example).
    rets value haste as much as spriests do, possibly even more because it lowers their gcd and shortens their ability cooldowns, which are just as much a resource to them as holy power is. for you haste is purely a damage stat, for ret it is a resource gain stat.

    have you even looked at ret passives? or are you just pulling this crap out ofwhole cloth?


    Right now, warriors are better than rets - hands down - without question. But there are two ways to remedy that, one is to buff rets, the other is to nerf warriors. Everyone would rather get buffs than see another class they don't really care about get nerfs - but ultimately the effect is the same - when rets and warriors are equally valuable to arena teams - rets will see proportional representation (or a rise approaching that).
    warriors are broken, mostly because of their ability to lock down casters as well as melee hybrids. they burst harder, have more control, and better mobility then rets, they always have, and they will continue to after the 5.1 nerfs.

    ret damage is mediocre, and always has been, their burst is not nearly as scary as it has been in the past and sword of light is expressly designed to allow rets to be effective offhealers, it is half their worth to their team.

    nerfing pvp power with out compensating ret in some way ( which they won't) is probably going to nearly gut the spec's viability.

    shadow priests will still have great damage and control. ret has neither.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  6. #106
    When this change goes live if burst hasnt been nerfed aswell the game is gonna be complete shit, hard enough trying to off heal warrior, mage burst on my healer

  7. #107
    Honestly dunno but I suppoe ppl dont read about other classes mechanics-rotations etc.They just w8 to see som1 doing a crit (dmg or heal) and then they alt-tab to a forum to spam nerf nerf nerf! make a coffe sit on ur PC and go to a class preview read about the class, learn some of its abilities and then: u will know how to counter it, u will get a true pic if it should be nerfed or not, 3d u just got better in pvp. Its like 1-2 hours total. Retri pallies are fine get used to it

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    This is often the first question asked by ppl and a very fair one. It clearly isn't that simple. 11 classes with 34 specs and even more combos of choices and crazy combos of talents. This will slip through the cracks sometimes. Having so many ppl beta test this time around is also partly to blame having over a million ppl bitch and moan about their classes real suggestions and bug reports go unnoticed.
    Blizzard also happens to ignore a vast majority of the most constructive PvP feedback in PTR patches and betas dealing with class mechanics, balance and especially bugs.
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  9. #109
    Pandaren Monk Bantokar's Avatar
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    I wonder if this will completely castrate the very small amount of self healing a frost DK can do. Worst mobility/CC/self healing of all melee
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  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    lol no. the egregious offenders and the targets of this nerf are boomkins, shadowpriests and to a lesser extent elemental shamans.

    rets, and other melee hybrids who have offhealing capacity are all actually very very balanced.

    here, let me explain ret off healing to you, a lot of people obviously don't understand it because they keep claiming its overpowered.

    a large portion of ret's play is based around resource management, ramp up time and cooldown burst.

    all of ret heals either have
    a. a significant resource cost that if they make the decision to heal they can't put out damage.
    b. a significant ramp up time. selfless healer takes at minimum 8 seconds ramp up time to be useful, its usually used after 12 seconds. after it has been used it takes another 8-12 seconds to ramp up.

    i don't play enhance, and i'm not hugely familiar with it, but as far as i understand it, they function similarly
    enhance shamans use their maelstrom stacks, which takes a few seconds to build, to put out instant heals, for them to use those stacks to heal they have to give up instant hexes and instant lightning bolts.
    they sacrifice control and damage to heal, just like rets do.

    compare shadowpriests who in the past could drop out of shadowform and sacrifice damage reduction and damage output to pump out some fairly powerful heals, but it obliterated their mana pools fairly quickly and opened them up for swaps because they no longer had the defenses of shadowform.
    right now? they no longer have to drop out of form, and their massive mana pools allow them to pump out heals with out any significant resource cost.

    there is no reason that hybrid specs like rets, and enhance shamans, who don't have any particularly glaring balance issues, or particularly high arena rep should suffer because blizz is trying to control a spec with insanely high rep with a chain saw instead of a scalpel.

    if the pvp power nerf goes though, both enhance and ret need to be compensated in terms of their damage output because their off healing is a half their worth to a team because while both specs have decent burst their overall damage is rather mediocre.
    Erm what are you talking about we have to drop out of form to cast flash heal the only thing we can cast while in form is renew (8k ticks) and mending (like 14k initial hit) If i go out of form my entire damage practically stops and my mana regen comes from VT which if going against any class with bubbles I receive very little mana back, flash heal cost 18k mana aswel. Spriest are PRIEST which deserve to heal, we cannot do damage besides dots and heal at the same time. If you cannot handle a spriest off healing its a L2P issue.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Bantokar View Post
    I wonder if this will completely castrate the very small amount of self healing a frost DK can do. Worst mobility/CC/self healing of all melee
    Only effects hybrid healers not melee or % based heals so you guys will be okay. Funny how the heals effected by this change are actual classes who can heal...

  12. #112
    As a warrior i think Retadins need to be exempt from this. They have always been a melee healer. It's what they do.

  13. #113
    Brewmaster Notos's Avatar
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    I'm curious to see how this will affect Ret pallies. A people have mentioned their healing is sort of what makes them anything close to viable. Hopefully they will make up for the nerf in some other fashion for them or we may never see another ret pally in competitive pvp again.
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  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Notos View Post
    Hopefully they will make up for the nerf in some other fashion for them or we may never see another ret pally in competitive pvp again.
    The problem with this is that you won't see any sort of changes until 5.2.
    5.2 probably wont be out until March, at the earliest? Realistically? They will never hotfix buff ret and any changes they do in 5.2 will be small, as they will fear making rets OP, and they would never have rets more than viable in PvP for a whole patch...

  15. #115
    Finally. Hybrid classes are stupid-op right now, you just can't kill a spriest on mid-to-good pvp gear. There will be specs wich don't deserve this "nerf" but, hopefully, this will make pvp a little less frustrating.

    Btw, any words about (pvp) Resto Druids?
    Last edited by DungeonMaster; 2012-11-20 at 01:03 PM.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by DungeonMaster View Post
    Finally. Hybrid classes are stupid-op right now, you just can't kill a spriest on mid-to-good pvp gear. There will be specs wich don't deserve this "nerf" but, hopefully, this will make pvp a little less frustrating.
    This is exactly the problem. All hybrid classes are receiving a huge nerf because spriests are OP. What other hybrid class is highly represented in a non-healing spec?

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Fexus View Post
    This is exactly the problem. All hybrid classes are receiving a huge nerf because spriests are OP. What other hybrid class is highly represented in a non-healing spec?
    feral druids.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    feral druids.
    True, but correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not a feral expert), I don't think feral healing is any good at all apart from HotW.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Fexus View Post
    True, but correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not a feral expert), I don't think feral healing is any good at all apart from HotW.
    feral has by far the weakest off healing of the hybrids, but their damage, and control, like shadowpriests, is exceptionally good.
    they are probably the next best melee after warriors. they don't need the healing to be viable because they have other tools and raw damage to compensate.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    feral has by far the weakest off healing of the hybrids, but their damage, and control, like shadowpriests, is exceptionally good.
    they are probably the next best melee after warriors. they don't need the healing to be viable because they have other tools and raw damage to compensate.
    I'd say ferals are only behind warriors due to Avatar currently making warriors immune to roots and snares.

    With the incoming change, if blizzard chooses to raise shockwaves cd by 5-10seconds (which they should by all means). I'd put feral at the top of the melee food chain easily.

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