Comatose patients are conscious - Ask to die or stay alive?

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

The brain would produce generic activity in response to external stimuli. There's a fair bit of difference between such automatic processes, and patterns that would constitute an answer of yes or no. I don't see how a brain that gives an answer to a question isn't conscious.

I sometimes know the answer to questions I am presented with before I know how I know them. Also, define conscious.

Because nobody's saying this is the case for everyone in a "coma", and because some people actually say exactly just that?

Rom Houben spent 23 years misdiagnosed as being in a coma until it was discovered that his consciousness was intact.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2010...ma_flunks.html

[Deleted]

if there is no hope of recovery then Switch me off. Turn the lights out, im done.
Dont want to be a burden on family, and certainly could not deal with being completely aware and unable to do anything.

[semaphore]

I sometimes know the answer to questions I am presented with before I know how I know them. Also, define conscious.

But you don't answer those questions while unconscious.

Without going into the murky waters of defining consciousness myself, I really don't see how you can say that a person who is told to imagine playing tennis or walking the streets in order to answer a question, and actually does just that, can be considered lacking a consciousness.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2010...ma_flunks.html

I wasn't aware of this, but I've previously listed two other patients who have recovered fully from locked-in syndrome.

[Howard Moon]

I'd wait for a while... try to see if there are signs of improvement. If nothing...

Pull the plug.

[Laize]

http://io9.com/5960071/man-in-coma-u...im-not-in-pain
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8497148.stm



A man has been in a coma for the last 12 years, and doctors have found out that he has been conscious the entire time, completely aware of who he is and where he is. They asked him questions about himself, and by analyzing his brain they could see his "yes" or "no" answers. He got 5/6 autobiographical answers correct, and he even told them that he's not in pain. So comatose patients could all be conscious out there, just waiting inside of their heads for weeks and months and years. The hospital actually tested other comatose patients and they found that 43% of them were conscious.

Question -
Knowing this, that being in a coma isn't just going to sleep and waking up instantly whenever it is you wake up (if at all), would you tell them to end your life or would you rather stay trapped in your body for the entire time, hoping that someday the coma will end?

I'd probably ask for death unless I could be like Stephen Hawking.

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

But you don't answer those questions while unconscious.

Perhaps I do, but the response isn't measured because of sleep paralysis.

Without going into the murky waters of defining consciousness myself, I really don't see how you can say that a person who is told to imagine playing tennis or walking the streets in order to answer a question, and actually does just that, can be considered lacking a consciousness.

Because reaction doesn't mean conscious perception or thought. If it did, we could be considered to be conscious while asleep.

I mean, I'm not saying that this is totally wrong, I'm just saying there needs to be more research done.

[Deleted]

Before pulling the plug, consider this

[Tradewind]

I'd exploit it and become some sort of prophet. Giving away free advice using my brain waves to millions of gullible sky-wizardeers. Get rich from it and pay to have my consciousness implanted into cyberspace, becoming a real life Jobe.

[semaphore]

Perhaps I do, but the response isn't measured because of sleep paralysis.

I'm lost. What were we talking about here?

Because reaction doesn't mean conscious perception or thought. If it did, we could be considered to be conscious while asleep.

I mean, I'm not saying that this is totally wrong, I'm just saying there needs to be more research done.

And I'm not saying we don't need to do more research. But I don't see how you can argue that imagining playing tennis in order to answer "yes" to a question can be considered merely a reaction from a brain devoid of consciousness. Seems to me like those of you taking the stance that "this doesn't prove anything" is really just ignoring how the scientists actually ascertained the patient's responses, and instead arguing against the research as though it relies on wishful readings of random signals.

Your brain doesn't light up in the way you are told to, in response to questions, if there is no consciousness. Not without some means of perceiving the instructions in the first place and the questions later, and most likely not without some conscious thought of doing the said imagining.

[Adam Jensen]

He'd still be able to feel things touching him.

I didn't think about that, but still, that's hardly a comfort.

[Pandamists]

depends will i be able to tell them to put on jesse cox and crendor videos and can i watch doctor who all the time? i mean if im kept entertained i probably wouldnt mind it that much plus cyborgs.

I'm listening to Cox N' Crendor right now lol. But seriously I wouldn't want to die trapped like that, the mind is so expansive, just look at Stephen Hawking, he can move his hand barley to speak. Besides, most people are already in Comatose sitting on their couch being brainwashed by the mainstream media.

[caractacus]

I'm lost. What were we talking about here?


And I'm not saying we don't need to do more research. But I don't see how you can argue that imagining playing tennis in order to answer "yes" to a question can be considered merely a reaction from a brain devoid of consciousness. Seems to me like those of you taking the stance that "this doesn't prove anything" is really just ignoring how the scientists actually ascertained the patient's responses, and instead arguing against the research as though it relies on wishful readings of random signals.

Your brain doesn't light up in the way you are told to, in response to questions, if there is no consciousness. Not without some means of perceiving the instructions in the first place and the questions later, and most likely not without some conscious thought of doing the said imagining.

While you are sleeping your brain makes decisions all the time. If you move your hand out from under the covers the brain will assess is my hand cold? Yes, move hand back under covers / No, leave hand where it is. Yet you have no conscious memory of this happening. Just because someone in a coma has their eyes open and can respond to images and their brain can register yes/no responses doesn't really demonstrate consciousness. Brain activity and even decision making does not equal consciousness.

[Tzalix]

Fun fact - the song "One" by Metallica is about the character in that story, and the video features a lot of clips from the movie adaptation that was made in the 50's.

Now that the war is through with me
I'm waking up, I cannot see
That there is not much left of me
Nothing is real but pain now

*shivers*

Bloody hell it must be horrible. I would choose death, for sure. I also think we need to put more research into this.

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 02:47 PM ----------

While you are sleeping your brain makes decisions all the time. If you move your hand out from under the covers the brain will assess is my hand cold? Yes, move hand back under covers / No, leave hand where it is. Yet you have no conscious memory of this happening. Just because someone in a coma has their eyes open and can respond to images and their brain can register yes/no responses doesn't really demonstrate consciousness. Brain activity and even decision making does not equal consciousness.

When you're asleep you're not unconscious though, that's two different things. When you're asleep you are just in an altered state of consciousness.

What I'm trying to say is, if you're in a coma you're supposed to be completely unconscious. Brain activity and decision making does equal consciousness, just different levels of it.

[caractacus]

When you're asleep you're not unconscious though, that's two different things. When you're asleep you are just in an altered state of consciousness.

What I'm trying to say is, if you're in a coma you're supposed to be completely unconscious. Brain activity and decision making does equal consciousness, just different levels of it.

Well we can argue about semantics but if you describe consciousness as awareness are you aware that you are asleep?

[semaphore]

While you are sleeping your brain makes decisions all the time. If you move your hand out from under the covers the brain will assess is my hand cold? Yes, move hand back under covers / No, leave hand where it is.

Yes, and as I keep saying, your example is nothing like what they actually did. So your point is rather moot.

Yet you have no conscious memory of this happening.

Not having memory of an event does not mean you were not conscious at the time. It means you have no memory of it.

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 03:03 PM ----------

Well we can argue about semantics but if you describe consciousness as awareness are you aware that you are asleep?

If you can follow instructions in your "sleep" are you really asleep?

[Laize]

Before pulling the plug, consider this

NOT COOL, DUDE!

Not cool at ALL.

[Shadowmelded]

I'm struggling to answer the poll. Not to be super pedantic or anything, but you can't ask a doctor to kill you (barring two states, in which you need to have less than 6 months left to live, which in the case of a coma isn't discernible) I mean I get the sentiment, but if it was ever to occur you would be essentially trapped with no way out. You could file an advance directive (DNR) but there's no time frame on that, you can't specify 'give me a few weeks/years and then pull the plug'

Euthanasia and assisted dying laws are scarily restrictive, to the point that they can do more harm than good currently.

[Tzalix]

Well we can argue about semantics but if you describe consciousness as awareness are you aware that you are asleep?

You are "aware" when you're asleep, just much less than when you're awake.