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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Franksredhot View Post
    Hit/Expertise in reds.
    sup.
    The issue with this is you may be falling into a false equivalency.

    Even assuming Crit > Hit(Expertise) > Crit > Int > Mastery > Haste (just an example).

    This does not mean that gemming hit(expertise) is superior to Int as reforging is not available for intellect. Any scenario where an item already has crit you are better off reforging the Mastery/Haste into Hit so unless blue sockets + reforge doesnt get you to hit cap you wouldnt consider expertise over intellect even if expertise has a higher comparative value to the intellect as the actual trade off is the inferior haste/mastery you are not reforging.

    Turkey One pretty much covers the end result but I wanted to explain it a bit further since the false equivalency is a real trap when looking at stat weights for gemming choices.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Formless Voice View Post
    The issue with this is you may be falling into a false equivalency.

    Even assuming Crit > Hit(Expertise) > Crit > Int > Mastery > Haste (just an example).

    This does not mean that gemming hit(expertise) is superior to Int as reforging is not available for intellect. Any scenario where an item already has crit you are better off reforging the Mastery/Haste into Hit so unless blue sockets + reforge doesnt get you to hit cap you wouldnt consider expertise over intellect even if expertise has a higher comparative value to the intellect as the actual trade off is the inferior haste/mastery you are not reforging.
    Close to right, but not exactly.. The problem you face is that 2xCrit is still stronger than 1x int. And unless you can reforge yourself in a way that every piece you have has crit or you reforge them into crit and still reach the hit cap, gemming expertise will be a better option as long as the gain is over ~120 crit rating..

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Urmydinner View Post
    Viable and optimal are quite different. Arcane is viable in raids, but in general Fire will always be optimal.
    Lol arcane, really? Do you even bother to look at simc?Raidbot?Dpsbot? Where arcane is dead last, half the dps of fire.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by neubs986 View Post
    I see many people using Int/Crit gems for red sockets, but I reccommend the following instead:

    Crafty Vermillion Onyx

    It's the exact same as a hit/crit gem except it can go into a red socket instead of a blue.
    Should only do that if you are in a heavy need for hit. And it should be done after both gloves and boots have exp/hit enchants. In reality you should not have to use those gems at all, even at 463/craft pre raid BiS it is not needed. Use hit/exp enchants since int>haste...

  5. #25
    a lot of people forget the 2:1 ratio of secondary to primary on gems now

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Close to right, but not exactly.. The problem you face is that 2xCrit is still stronger than 1x int. And unless you can reforge yourself in a way that every piece you have has crit or you reforge them into crit and still reach the hit cap, gemming expertise will be a better option as long as the gain is over ~120 crit rating..
    There is a ton of hit/crit gear now from even just heroics and valor so unless you're a really fresh level 90 this should never be an issue. I've been having to reforge away from hit for a long time now so red gems are clearly int/crit.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Urmydinner View Post
    I've noticed some mages are still stuck in the old ways of gemming! This is just a public service message saying that you should not be gemming for intellect and instead you should be gemming for Crit and Hit.

    Why?

    If you are familiar with stat weights and what they mean I'd have a look at this.


    Now if you scroll down a bit, you'll see that the stat weights for a normally geared Fire Mage is

    Intellect
    4.55

    Haste
    2.17

    Crit

    2.72

    So what does this mean? For each point of a stat you gain that number in damage per second. Obviously, Intellect is going to win out because of how high it is rated when we're comparing it point for point with Crit and Haste. It has always been that way in the past, but now that MoP has introduced gems that have twice the amount for the secondary stats (everything but intellect) we now find ourselves in an odd position.

    So, Brilliant gems have 160 intellect on them while Smooth Sun's Radiance has 320 Crit. That means according to these stats you gain 728 damage per second with the Brilliant gem in and 870 damage per second with the critical strike gem in making the Smooth Sun's Radiance the optimal choice by a pretty significant margin.


    Smooth Sun's Radiance (+320 Crit) For yellow sockets
    Potent Vermilion Onyx (+80 Intellect +160 Crit) For red sockets
    Piercing Wild Jade (+160 Hit +160 Crit) For blue sockets



    *If you're curious where this information came from, feel free to visit the source. simulationcraft.org
    Quote Originally Posted by stX3 View Post
    Should only do that if you are in a heavy need for hit. And it should be done after both gloves and boots have exp/hit enchants. In reality you should not have to use those gems at all, even at 463/craft pre raid BiS it is not needed. Use hit/exp enchants since int>haste...
    Crafty Vermilion Onyx is actually a better choice than Potent. The more hit from gems and enchants, leaves space for more crit, which in turn is far superior than mastery and haste to a certain level. So when reforged correctly, will get more dps out of your character.
    Last edited by KoolKidKaos; 2012-11-19 at 04:29 PM.

  8. #28
    Unless that extra/excess hit then is reforged to haste.... 2 haste < 1 intellect

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by neubs986 View Post
    I see many people using Int/Crit gems for red sockets, but I reccommend the following instead:

    Crafty Vermillion Onyx

    It's the exact same as a hit/crit gem except it can go into a red socket instead of a blue.
    hit isnt really an issue once you have raid gear
    http://oce.op.gg/summoner/userName=soulstrikes in oceanic now Lol

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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Lol arcane, really? Do you even bother to look at simc?Raidbot?Dpsbot? Where arcane is dead last, half the dps of fire.
    "Viable and optimal are quite different."
    It's certainly not optimal, but as it is possible to play Arcane and still beat enrage timers then it is viable.
    That is all that the word viable means, its constant misuse is an eternal annoyance to me.

  11. #31
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    @OP: Don't forget Crit is also multiplied at a 1.5x for Fire, so technically, it's almost a 3:1 for gemming Crit over Int (You get some crit from Int, so it's ALMOST 3:1)

    [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 10/14H
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  12. #32
    Pit Lord Asmodias's Avatar
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    Im glad this post cropped up. I have been baffled by Mr Robot telling me to gem crit. I've tended to gem int in the past. Now, I have learned better. I still can't play as fire but at least I have better stats :P


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  13. #33
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    "Viable and optimal are quite different."
    It's certainly not optimal, but as it is possible to play Arcane and still beat enrage timers then it is viable.
    That is all that the word viable means, its constant misuse is an eternal annoyance to me.
    It's not if your comp has only speccs that are like this.

    My comp barely beat enrage timers. If I stayed Frost and did half the DPS I'm doing now, we wouldn't be nearly as far as we are.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 05:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodias View Post
    Im glad this post cropped up. I have been baffled by Mr Robot telling me to gem crit. I've tended to gem int in the past. Now, I have learned better. I still can't play as fire but at least I have better stats :P
    Word of advice: Unless you specifically enter stat weights, NEVER trust Mr. Robot.

    Even after you enter stats, take the info with a grain of salt.

    [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 10/14H
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  14. #34
    Not even World of Logs shows Frost mages doing half the DPS of Fire mages, if that was your guild's problem I think you could just as easily have beaten enrage timers by learning how to play the spec than by changing to Fire

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    hit isnt really an issue once you have raid gear
    ^ exactly what I was going to say.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    @OP: Don't forget Crit is also multiplied at a 1.5x for Fire, so technically, it's almost a 3:1 for gemming Crit over Int (You get some crit from Int, so it's ALMOST 3:1)
    For any proper stat weights, that should already be included.

  17. #37
    ilvl 479 doesnt count as normally geared right? Int is still better for me imo.

    edit: damn was hoping someone to tell me "gem crit ofc you noob cata mage", would be fun to see his "im the best theorycrafter eva face" to "loser face".
    Last edited by Darcyn; 2012-11-20 at 04:51 PM.

  18. #38
    so what would you use for solid reds and what would you use for the extra gem slot for your belt?

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by chris1402 View Post
    so what would you use for solid reds and what would you use for the extra gem slot for your belt?
    Use potent for reds, smooth for belt buckle.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    hit isnt really an issue once you have raid gear
    That may be so, however, it's still the case that 2 secondary stats > 1 int, therefore the more hit you have through gems, the more crit you can reforge for, which is worth giving up the int.

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