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  1. #221
    Mechagnome
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    running the 25man is much less of a problem than recruiting for it. one of the best things they could do would simply be to merge low population realms imo

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    There was a poll here recently that said that 43% of current 10 man raiders would like to raid 25.
    Oh tell me how representative is a poll on a website like mmo-champion.com?

    Like I recall 1200 people took part, that's like enough to calculate the opinion of 10 Million people.

    And to be honest, I also clicked 25-man. It feels 10 times more epic to raid 25-man than 10-man. But I would NEVER leave my 10man guild for real. Because I like the people, and I like the raiding atmosphere.

  3. #223
    This whole issue is rather silly if you ask me, the Idea that we have to do something special to keep 25 man raids from breaking up into 10s is an indication that there is a problem with 25s. If people want to do 25 mans it's possible now, all they have to do is get 24 other people and divide the work up some how, if they can't do this it is not an indication that the format is bad, it's an indication that the people are not interested. Making the Loot from 25s already upgraded 1 of the 2 possible upgrades will be no different than what the old system was, because it literally tells every 10 man raider that they have to put 75% of their weekly Valor cap limit into each Item they get just to stay level with a 25 man raider, that is a month of Valor points for every 5 Items a 10 man raider gets, unless the valor weekly cap is removed this Idea is extremely penalizing to 10 man raider to the point that any group looking to progress competitively be it world wide or just on their server will have no option but to do 25s just like before they lock out was combined.

    in business you don't spend money to make something that can't compete competitive if Blizzard really wants to please the player base they need to let this issue go and put effort into something that would actually make sense like finally splitting PVP and PVE you have shown the ability and the willingness to give players multiple specs, now take it one step farther and make a PVP spec that way you can actually properly balance PVP without worrying about how this will effect PVE or the other way around, this would be a problem you could address and succeed at, it is a topic that would be whole heartedly welcomed by the player base and it would give you exponentially more freedom to produce a well balanced product, and give players real choices in specs.
    Last edited by Bruddoris; 2012-11-19 at 02:24 PM.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    A 25m raider with always complain why the hell does he need to raid with 15 other poor skilled players or why is the boss space so small. On pair the 10m raider will complain that loot never drops for him and that why does he need to interrupt/kite as well as heal/dps. Each has prob a valid point, but you can't compare them to be fair. That's why I don't understand the need to add an extra reward for 25m raids. If the community shifts towards 10m raids then it's there own choice, I didn't see any actions back in the days to save 40m raids so why save 25m raids if they are going "extinct"?
    I don't understand this at all. Blizzard says 25 man needs more incentive, tons of people say so on the forums but yet some people here need to disagree. Maybe look at the facts and think about what you are posting.

    First off all how can you compare 40 man raids with this situation? It's completely different. I am not going to tell you why, just try to figure something out yourself when it is so obvious.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    And your point is? 40-man raiding was killed by Blizzard way before the community did. Hence the boom of new pro guilds in TBC, since the 40-man raiding ones split or cross-merged. So yet again I ask, why the "save 25-man raiding"?
    The point is that this is a completely different situation and your post doesn't apply.

    So yet again I ask, why the "keep 10-mans in game"?

    See what I did there?
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  6. #226
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    You seem to know what you are talking about citizenpete, the glorious arena of 25 ppl guild/raid leaders is awaiting for you to prove us all how easy it is to create an organized 25 :P
    And you will have more loot on top!
    What are you waiting for?
    We re waiting
    Seems like you have no more arguments to bring to the table : ) In addition, you didn´t read my post properly

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Tepesch View Post
    Oh tell me how representative is a poll on a website like mmo-champion.com?

    Like I recall 1200 people took part, that's like enough to calculate the opinion of 10 Million people.

    And to be honest, I also clicked 25-man. It feels 10 times more epic to raid 25-man than 10-man. But I would NEVER leave my 10man guild for real. Because I like the people, and I like the raiding atmosphere.
    And that has nothing to do with needing more incentive for 25 man. If you were in a 25 man raiding guild with those friends and 10 man was more epic to you you would say the exact same thing.

  8. #228
    10 mans -

    Healer assignments? Don't exist. Cooldown assignments? Don't exist. Split DPS assignments? Don't exist. Enrage timers? Usually completely irrelevant. Interrupt assignments? Typically laughable, comes down to 1, MAYBE 2 people. Loot system? Doesn't exist.

    25 mans -

    Healers must each be assigned. Cooldowns must be assigned at specific times (usually chained) and missing one can result in a wipe. DPS is usually assigned / split up based on class mechanics for real kills. (complex) Enrage timers are usually very tight on early kills. Interrupt assignments typically involve 6-9 people assigned on a specific rotation, 1 person missing theirs out of the group often means a wipe. Doing loot fairly takes extra time.

    I was talking to my wife a week or two ago, who raids 10 mans, and she was telling me how heroic Stone Guardians was going to be hard this week because Jasper Guardian was up. I laughed, because 25 man deals with all four guardians every week. Yeah. 10 man is equal...

    There are plenty of people stuck to raiding 10 man who would rather raid 25. Getting a group of 25 like-minded people together, who can consistently make the same raid times/days every week, is significantly harder than getting 10 - people who try to argue otherwise are kidding themselves. 25s are dying across every server, to the point that even Blizzard is taking notice and thinks something should be done, and not just because "nobody wants to do it". I'm sorry if your computer is terrible and you're scared of 25s, or having to contribute to an actual group environment.

    I think this game would be pretty bad off if the only group options were 5 and 10 man, (and lol, 25 lfr) which is where we're heading. What a steep decline from the days of 40/20 man raids. Personally, I find 10 mans to be very boring, because there's almost never any adjustments to be made to strategies or assignments or how things are being done. It's completely one dimensional. Just like there are never any adjustments to be made in 5 mans.
    Last edited by Daerio; 2012-11-19 at 02:24 PM.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    And your point is? 40-man raiding was killed by Blizzard way before the community did. Hence the boom of new pro guilds in TBC, since the 40-man raiding ones split or cross-merged. So yet again I ask, why the "save 25-man raiding"?
    40man guilds were killed due to a very simple reason.

    80% of people couldn't run it on their PC at that time.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    I don't understand this at all. Blizzard says 25 man needs more incentive, tons of people say so on the forums but yet some people here need to disagree. Maybe look at the facts and think about what you are posting.

    First off all how can you compare 40 man raids with this situation? It's completely different. I am not going to tell you why, just try to figure something out yourself when it is so obvious.
    We don't want 10 man raiders pigeonholed into doing 25 mans again. Unique or stronger rewards for 25 mans would do just that. Its that simple.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 02:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Daerio View Post
    10 mans -

    Healer assignments? Don't exist. Cooldown assignments? Don't exist. Split DPS assignments? Don't exist. Enrage timers? Usually completely irrelevant. Interrupt assignments? Typically laughable, comes down to 1, MAYBE 2 people. Loot system? Doesn't exist.
    Believe it or not, all those things exist in 10 man raids.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by torterra275 View Post
    I would say this would be a great start, as a 25 man raider, it would nice to have some extra compesantion for the raids, especially with a little bit of my guild's stinginess. 25 Mans are a dying breed, and I know would could push further in 10 man.
    Ayea, can easily clear content in 10...but we really wanna push 25. But as 10 is so much easier to achieve not that many people are interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    We don't want 10 man raiders pigeonholed into doing 25 mans again. Unique or stronger rewards for 25 mans would do just that. Its that simple.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 02:25 PM ----------



    Believe it or not, all those things exist in 10 man raids.
    Hardly, when we go 10 we just do some random shit and the boss dies while we need to asign specific tasks. It's true those are present in 10...but not even as close as 25 unless you outgear it in 25.
    Last edited by Sarac; 2012-11-19 at 02:28 PM.

  12. #232
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    You already get 5 pieces of loot per boss which reduces rng by a ton. In the end don't u just run what you as a person enjoy? Don't see any reason why 25man should be rewarded anything extra...
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  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruddoris View Post
    This whole issue is rather silly if you ask me, the Idea that we have to do something special to keep 25 man raids from breaking up into 10s is an indication that there is a problem with 25s.
    Another poster with no clue about terms like "entropy" or "path of least resistance".
    It is funny because when those changes come, all of you will riot because of "how unfair" it is for the 10 mans while you have no clue how unfair it is right now for the 25 man teams.

    I ll give you my favorite argument for such a missinformed opinion like yours.
    Make 5 man share content/lock/difficulty/achievement/loot with 10 man.
    See 10 man crumble?
    Wouldnt that be an indication that "there is a problem with 10s"???

    According to your logic there would be a problem.
    But because your logic is flawed, no there wouldnt be any problem.
    The problem would be with the stupid raiding model that allow 10 man to cherry pick 5 best people and claim for them better progress and loot, while the other 5 can go s##ew themselves!

    But you people are so biased that you fail to see the obvious.
    And the truth is right there!
    It is called LFR!
    A mode that atm is 10 times more popular than the 10 man...Why?
    You just push a button and you loot!
    Smt even easier than forming a 10 man team.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    There is a poll right here in this site that is one year old already. Imagine if people were to redo it now :P

    About the easy critisism, as i said we are a casual guild.
    Go check the % of those guilds around 5000-10000 rank worldwide that do 25 and come tell me it is my fault.
    And if you say it is because "people at those ranks prefer 10" ill call you out for talking BS because the % of 25s is STEADILY going down as you move from the most progressed to the less progressed teams WITHOUT exception!

    So yeah right. Blizzard doesnt know about the 150 wipes we had on nefarian normal and how much it took to our 10 man to down it.
    They dont know about our wipes for 2 weeks on bethtilac normal that we one shoted a tuesday in 10 man.

    They dont have similar data from thousand of other guilds that had the same excactly fate at the casual level.
    And oh, what a coincidence! 98% raids 10 excactly at those levels!

    Oh my this is a miracle!

    Most 10 man guilds are not very friendly. They are a bunch of people gathered together to get easier loot, disbanding at the first brick wall.
    The mortality rate of 10s is mind blowing, but for every one that bites the dust another one is created, that is the difference between 10 and 25.
    Shannox 10m required a ranged DPS able to do appropriate burst damage. People had to respec for that. A holy priest was also very good due to body & soul. Whenever you needed a specific class, the likelyhood of a 25m raider having that is simply higher. And there's still unique utility, like smoke bomb and BoP. T11 was generally easier for 25m, FL easier for 10m.

    If you look at Wowprogress right now you can see the first page exclusively 25m with exception of Paragon. If 10m raiding was easier these guilds would've switched to 10m. Simple, really. The first 3 pages, 33% of them are alliance guilds, 67% horde guilds. Guess why that is? I rather see Blizz fix that. 2 top guilds went horde this expansion (vodka and Method) because it helps in progression.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Proteus View Post
    The point is that this is a completely different situation and your post doesn't apply.

    So yet again I ask, why the "keep 10-mans in game"?

    See what I did there?
    You do understand that by the required player nature, 25m raids/guilds will never equal with the 10m ones. There will never be the same ammount or more. It's math. And your question is the same intellect level as the OP's main question. There is nothing to save/keep, it's all about the choice the community makes. Not by gimmpying or buffing one version so you force the community to go with your desired path. Then you might as well play any other liniar game.

  16. #236
    Scarab Lord Gandrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    You seem to know what you are talking about citizenpete, the glorious arena of 25 ppl guild/raid leaders is awaiting for you to prove us all how easy it is to create an organized 25 :P
    I don't think anyone said it was easy.

    But 25 mans already have better rewards and their own incentive to do them. Problem lies with the players, not game design.
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  17. #237
    first thing to do would be to make 25feasts and cauldrons be the same as 10man. no need to make guild pay more.
    making 25man normal slightly easier than 10man normal would be second.

  18. #238
    Let's be honest, the only thing that's going to satisfy most of the 25 man camp here is 10s being relegated to a lower tier once more. The 10 man camp will moan about anything that elevates the 25 man raiders above them again. I don't really see an easy compromise. I mean you could give 25s more loot, but they already get more loot (and better range of due to number of drops) and if that's not been enough, I'm not sure adding a few more items in is going to suddenly cause people to abandon their 10 mans to join 25s.

    Ultimately though I feel people leaving 25s is because they want to, and would rather raid 10s. As such I don't see much point in trying to artificially extend the lifespan of the content that the majority of people seem to clearly not want to do. It's still very viable to do for those that want too, but why try to raise it to reward so much that players once more feel forced back to 25s?

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by purefury View Post
    first thing to do would be to make 25feasts and cauldrons be the same as 10man. no need to make guild pay more.
    making 25man normal slightly easier than 10man normal would be second.
    First of all, what cauldrons? As for the feasts they actually take less mats per person to feed people when you calculate that they're taking 2x the mats on everything but the Soy Sauce...

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnbwtrout View Post
    personally, i think they should just get rid of 10's and 25's and go to just one 15man.

    having raided both, here's my thoughts:

    10mans:
    too unforgiving. if everyone is average skill, just 1 person not performing can wipe the group.
    vent is not as entertaining.
    melee has a hard time finding a roster or pug spot.
    can create "bring the class not the player" situations (healing cd's, burst dps, aoe dps, buffs...etc).
    is logistically easier for leadership to manage.

    25mans:
    too forgiving. you can have a couple brain-deads and a few scrubs and still beat most encounters.
    vent is lively.
    good balance of melee and range dps, but also more competition.
    is harder logistically for leadership to manage.

    15mans:
    2x tanks, 4x healers, 9x dps (4 melee, 5 range). a pretty good mix i'd say; especially heals and dps. melee shouldn't be shafted as much either.
    frees up resources at blizz since they would only have to focus on one raid size.
    shouldn't be much harder to manage logistically than 10's and tons more easier than 25's.
    only going off on pvp size for AB, EotS and SSM (15man BGs) the feel is a lot more epic than 10mans.
    Your thoughts may be fine. The point is "moot", because it will not happen. Blizzard explained in detail why it won't happen. There are multiple reasons, starting with a huge amount of financial investment.
    They would have to redesign every single encounter. Every single class mechanic, and and and.. before even touching the player base opinion.

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