25m the fight is the same every week. LFR and 10m differs. The Jasper chains were quite a bitch on 10m because they were spawning as quick as on 25m, and together with RNG on which one is down your entire raid could become chained which is first of all not melee friendly and second doesn't work well with the tile mechanic.I was talking to my wife a week or two ago, who raids 10 mans, and she was telling me how heroic Stone Guardians was going to be hard this week because Jasper Guardian was up. I laughed, because 25 man deals with all four guardians every week. Yeah. 10 man is equal...
Really? Why aren't these people simply going 25m raiding then? Address this, and win.There are plenty of people stuck to raiding 10 man who would rather raid 25.
I think people who are arguing so many people want to play 25m are kidding themselves. They want to be boosted. They don't want the responsibility it takes in 10m, or the organisation it takes to make 25m. If they would, they'd go for 25m instead.Getting a group of 25 like-minded people together, who can consistently make the same raid times/days every week, is significantly harder than getting 10 - people who try to argue otherwise are kidding themselves. 25s are dying across every server, to the point that even Blizzard is taking notice and thinks something should be done, and not just because "nobody wants to do it".
That's right, it isn't casual friendly. I have state of the art AMD CPU with state of the art Radeon yet it is too laggy to play 25m competitively. And I don't want to invest because "Bob" here is telling me I should switch back to 25m.I'm sorry if your computer is terrible and you're scared of 25s, or having to contribute to an actual group environment.
No, no. If there would be one raid size of 15m then LFR would also be 15m. It'd make tuning and comparing easier. And it'd also make my experience in LFR as a 10m raider (then 15m raider) more fun because I can apply what I know from 15m to LFR and my computer would run it fine (its more than capable of doing 10m).I think this game would be pretty bad off if the only group options were 5 and 10 man, (and lol, 25 lfr) which is where we're heading. What a steep decline from the days of 40/20 man raids. Personally, I find 10 mans to be very boring, because there's almost never any adjustments to be made to strategies or assignments or how things are being done. It's completely one dimensional. Just like there are never any adjustments to be made in 5 mans.
"When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."
In 25 you needed a 45k hit. Dont remind me of firelands plz. There was not another tier so imbalanced in favor of 10 man in the history of wow.
If the hit required was 30k you might have a point. Right now? No it is just a silly examble that fails to deliver.
The only 10s that managed to dispute their supremacy were ex 25s. In Extremis in Firelands and Dragon Soul, with firelands completely undertuned for 10s and dragon soul having most of the top 25s banned for the stupid LFR, and now Paragon in MsV.
So you are surprised that guilds that were always top are still top?
What else you fail to comprehend is that 25s are not dead for the top guilds. They are dead for the VAST majority of the player base. And there are many reasosns for this to happen, reasons certainly not related with the term "choice" that is getting abused for 2 years now.
But you can't reward more to a system which fails because of the lack of most people to invest a bit more to maintain a bigger raiding group
As I stated before, 10m and 25m seem about equal in skill/rescource needed this tier, but all need to keep in mind that by the required number of players the ratio will never be 1:1 or you will never have more 25m raiding guilds when both modes are on pair.
So fair it seems a fair game for the community, don't understand why we need to gimp/buff one mode.
Last edited by naturestorm; 2012-11-19 at 02:45 PM.
let me see if I can put this in a format you might understand, I understand exactly what the issue of "the path of least resistance" is about, and entropy is laughably simple, the fact that 25 man is currently in a state of entropy and has been ever since it stopped generating superior Ilevel gear is a clear indicator that if given the option more people prefer the 10 man format to it. the existence of 25 mans is not endangered by 10 mans. if the rewards are equal and atm they are relatively so, with only a slightly larger ratio of gear to player in the 25 man format, all that has happened is the people who did not really want to do 25 mans aren't. If this results in 25s not happening then you have to find more people who feel as you do and raid with them, The argument is that this has become increasingly difficult, and the answer that is being generated by everyone who is in favor of "saving 25s" is simply a request to force the people who left for 10s to come back to 25s, but no one seems to be willing to admit that is what you are really asking for.
However, when Blizzard removed the higher ilv, and made 10 and 25 'equal' that prestige went out the window. Yes, I know in myself, all I've done in 25man, was done in 25man. But I also know, various bosses I could have killed on 10man without as much learning, coordination, skilled players, etc etc. I got disheartened when in DS, my alt actually out progressed my main, just cause we did 10lman mode, but at the end of the day, on the armoury both toons had the EXACT same gear and achievement, when I know, one of the kills to ALOT more work.
I have to say, I'm impressed Blizzard have took a step in the right direction, adding the 'Cutting Edge' achievements (for killing bosses pre nerf, or after the nerf [but with it turned off]) - In my opinion, they've also done something fairly nice with challenge modes (the transmog set)
Blizzard could take this further, by offering 25mans the same amount of loot as now, with the same stats as 10man. But with a much nicer transmog, or perhaps make the 25man loot skinable, so you get the gear regardless, but as a 25man raider you can choose to reskin it to any colour you like. Simple vanity changes like this, wouldn't unbalance the game, but would reward us 25man players for that extra effort we constantly put in.
"When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."
You forgot something: Positioning, spreading out and general view of the battlefield.10 mans -
Healer assignments? Don't exist. Cooldown assignments? Don't exist. Split DPS assignments? Don't exist. Enrage timers? Usually completely irrelevant. Interrupt assignments? Typically laughable, comes down to 1, MAYBE 2 people. Loot system? Doesn't exist.
25 mans -
Healers must each be assigned. Cooldowns must be assigned at specific times (usually chained) and missing one can result in a wipe. DPS is usually assigned / split up based on class mechanics for real kills. (complex) Enrage timers are usually very tight on early kills. Interrupt assignments typically involve 6-9 people assigned on a specific rotation, 1 person missing theirs out of the group often means a wipe. Doing loot fairly takes extra time.
I was talking to my wife a week or two ago, who raids 10 mans, and she was telling me how heroic Stone Guardians was going to be hard this week because Jasper Guardian was up. I laughed, because 25 man deals with all four guardians every week. Yeah. 10 man is equal...
Since the rooms are the same size for both raids its heaps easier to spread out and find positions in 10man while in 25man you usually have to share your spot with s/o else.
It's easier to see what's going on because there is a lot less going on in 10man.
We adopted a few 10man raiders last ID and they on Stone guard they were like "Omg so much chaos, so much going on here!!"
You can bring brain dead as long as you have peeps performing ABOVE average in the raid. If you don't then you're just as screwed as in 10man.10mans:
too unforgiving. if everyone is average skill, just 1 person not performing can wipe the group.
too forgiving. you can have a couple brain-deads and a few scrubs and still beat most encounters.
It's easier to get 10 committed people than 25 committed people, hence there's a rise of 10 man guilds. And unfortunately not every guild has the capacity to simply crank up to 25 man, without losing quality, if they even get 25 ppl.
The difficulty on both raid systems is pretty much balanced. Maybe with a slight advantage towards 10 man in regard of easier.. On a scale from 1 - 100 with 100 being easier I would say 55 - 10 man : 45 - 25 man.
It is however a lot more difficult (time investment, counseling, change encounter approach during the raid) to organize and to maintain 25 man raids.
10mans get the apropriate number of loots
25mans get the apropriate number of loots
both do it by choise...
but the second group actually wants more rewards for doing something they like to do...even tho its the officers/guild master who does the extra job....and THEY DO IT BY CHOICE.....but u say we like it more.... then go do it and stop crying ?
You think we didn't suffer through wipes on 25 man when we went a long time without a Jasper Petrification with bad RNG? lol. Whole raid chained together, can't do tiles - it isn't just a 10 man mechanic. Going for weeks without even knowing about a boss mechanic? That's a 10 man thing. Hardcore, bro.25m the fight is the same every week. LFR and 10m differs. The Jasper chains were quite a bitch on 10m because they were spawning as quick as on 25m, and together with RNG on which one is down your entire raid could become chained which is first of all not melee friendly and second doesn't work well with the tile mechanic.
Chances are good you're lying about your "state of the art" specs, and/or that you don't know how to configure your settings correctly. (which you could take 10 minutes to figure out, or ask a random that would know how) "My computer lags in 25s" is by far the most common excuse, and 90% of the time it's bunk.That's right, it isn't casual friendly. I have state of the art AMD CPU with state of the art Radeon yet it is too laggy to play 25m competitively. And I don't want to invest because "Bob" here is telling me I should switch back to 25m.
It'd make tuning easier if we just eliminated 10 man as well. Probably should just do that. (your argument, reversed)No, no. If there would be one raid size of 15m then LFR would also be 15m. It'd make tuning and comparing easier. And it'd also make my experience in LFR as a 10m raider (then 15m raider) more fun because I can apply what I know from 15m to LFR and my computer would run it fine (its more than capable of doing 10m).
Why do you need more rewards? You want to play with 24 instead of 9 others. Why should that be rewarded?!
I dont really see a point of dedicated rewards.
And from my pov (experience in both 10H/25H): the feeling when you down the difficult boss after countless number of tries in 25 H > all.
10 man version of raiding is just like demo version of game.
But if anyone brings different opinion, it is fine. Whatever you think about it has to be Win - Win change.
If you really want something that differs both raid frames: let it be details: double valor points, no repair costs, more gold drops, titles, vanity, raid perks etc.
Any ideas about loot will give result of: "dont force us raiding 25 etc".
Every time you say "I don't believe in fearies" one of them dies...
Rewarding for "logistical effort" only comes down to 1-2 people tops. The other 23-24 people in the raid do absolutely nothing different than they would in 10 mans. So I guess the guild leader and/or raid leader should get the rewards. Reward the whole raid for something they don't do? Nah, I don't think so.
I'll be glad when they shit can 25 mans all together. Hopefully before the next expac, if not, then for sure when the next expac hits.