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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    You do understand that by the required player nature, 25m raids/guilds will never equal with the 10m ones. There will never be the same ammount or more. It's math. And your question is the same intellect level as the OP's main question. There is nothing to save/keep, it's all about the choice the community makes. Not by gimmpying or buffing one version so you force the community to go with your desired path. Then you might as well play any other liniar game.
    Most people will just take the path of least resistance, which obviously is 10m raiding. The question actually is: is this the direction you want the game to go? As I feel that a raid should not be a glorified UBRS run (which is what 10m is really), I strongly believe that it isn't the right direction to head.
    Champion of the Naaru | Hand of A'dal | Twilight Vanquisher | the Astral Walker | the Light of Dawn | Dragonslayer | Firelord | Savior of Azeroth

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by vaccine View Post
    Ultimately though I feel people leaving 25s is because they want to, and would rather raid 10s.
    Pretty big false assumption. I know it's just my personal experience, but literally every person I know dropping down to 10s would rather be doing 25s.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Daerio View Post
    10 mans -

    Healer assignments? Don't exist. Cooldown assignments? Don't exist. Split DPS assignments? Don't exist. Enrage timers? Usually completely irrelevant. Interrupt assignments? Typically laughable, comes down to 1, MAYBE 2 people. Loot system? Doesn't exist.
    Bollocks. All exists, but not always together on every encounter.

    I was talking to my wife a week or two ago, who raids 10 mans, and she was telling me how heroic Stone Guardians was going to be hard this week because Jasper Guardian was up. I laughed, because 25 man deals with all four guardians every week. Yeah. 10 man is equal...
    25m the fight is the same every week. LFR and 10m differs. The Jasper chains were quite a bitch on 10m because they were spawning as quick as on 25m, and together with RNG on which one is down your entire raid could become chained which is first of all not melee friendly and second doesn't work well with the tile mechanic.

    There are plenty of people stuck to raiding 10 man who would rather raid 25.
    Really? Why aren't these people simply going 25m raiding then? Address this, and win.

    Getting a group of 25 like-minded people together, who can consistently make the same raid times/days every week, is significantly harder than getting 10 - people who try to argue otherwise are kidding themselves. 25s are dying across every server, to the point that even Blizzard is taking notice and thinks something should be done, and not just because "nobody wants to do it".
    I think people who are arguing so many people want to play 25m are kidding themselves. They want to be boosted. They don't want the responsibility it takes in 10m, or the organisation it takes to make 25m. If they would, they'd go for 25m instead.

    I'm sorry if your computer is terrible and you're scared of 25s, or having to contribute to an actual group environment.
    That's right, it isn't casual friendly. I have state of the art AMD CPU with state of the art Radeon yet it is too laggy to play 25m competitively. And I don't want to invest because "Bob" here is telling me I should switch back to 25m.

    I think this game would be pretty bad off if the only group options were 5 and 10 man, (and lol, 25 lfr) which is where we're heading. What a steep decline from the days of 40/20 man raids. Personally, I find 10 mans to be very boring, because there's almost never any adjustments to be made to strategies or assignments or how things are being done. It's completely one dimensional. Just like there are never any adjustments to be made in 5 mans.
    No, no. If there would be one raid size of 15m then LFR would also be 15m. It'd make tuning and comparing easier. And it'd also make my experience in LFR as a 10m raider (then 15m raider) more fun because I can apply what I know from 15m to LFR and my computer would run it fine (its more than capable of doing 10m).
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Shannox 10m required a ranged DPS able to do appropriate burst damage. People had to respec for that. A holy priest was also very good due to body & soul. Whenever you needed a specific class, the likelyhood of a 25m raider having that is simply higher. And there's still unique utility, like smoke bomb and BoP. T11 was generally easier for 25m, FL easier for 10m.
    Thats BS cause shannox required a 30k hit to compensate excactly for the small amout of people that are required for that "raid".
    In 25 you needed a 45k hit. Dont remind me of firelands plz. There was not another tier so imbalanced in favor of 10 man in the history of wow.
    If the hit required was 30k you might have a point. Right now? No it is just a silly examble that fails to deliver.
    Try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    If you look at Wowprogress right now you can see the first page exclusively 25m with exception of Paragon. If 10m raiding was easier these guilds would've switched to 10m. Simple, really. The first 3 pages, 33% of them are alliance guilds, 67% horde guilds. Guess why that is? I rather see Blizz fix that. 2 top guilds went horde this expansion (vodka and Method) because it helps in progression.
    Those guilds are raiding as 25s for 8 years most of them. You think that people want to downsize and raid 10 for better progress when they can still compete as 25? Also as i said, and you fail again to comprehend it, the top guilds of the world were always there.
    The only 10s that managed to dispute their supremacy were ex 25s. In Extremis in Firelands and Dragon Soul, with firelands completely undertuned for 10s and dragon soul having most of the top 25s banned for the stupid LFR, and now Paragon in MsV.

    So you are surprised that guilds that were always top are still top?
    Not me.

    What else you fail to comprehend is that 25s are not dead for the top guilds. They are dead for the VAST majority of the player base. And there are many reasosns for this to happen, reasons certainly not related with the term "choice" that is getting abused for 2 years now.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    Another poster with no clue about terms like "entropy" or "path of least resistance".
    It is funny because when those changes come, all of you will riot because of "how unfair" it is for the 10 mans while you have no clue how unfair it is right now for the 25 man teams.

    I ll give you my favorite argument for such a missinformed opinion like yours.
    Make 5 man share content/lock/difficulty/achievement/loot with 10 man.
    See 10 man crumble?
    Wouldnt that be an indication that "there is a problem with 10s"???

    According to your logic there would be a problem.
    But because your logic is flawed, no there wouldnt be any problem.
    The problem would be with the stupid raiding model that allow 10 man to cherry pick 5 best people and claim for them better progress and loot, while the other 5 can go s##ew themselves!

    But you people are so biased that you fail to see the obvious.
    And the truth is right there!
    It is called LFR!
    A mode that atm is 10 times more popular than the 10 man...Why?
    You just push a button and you loot!
    Smt even easier than forming a 10 man team.
    But that is not a fault of the system. It is human nature. You will always choose the easier way. And the easiest way is having less people, because you always have the choice of taking the most skilled people.

    But you can't reward more to a system which fails because of the lack of most people to invest a bit more to maintain a bigger raiding group

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Proteus View Post
    Most people will just take the path of least resistance, which obviously is 10m raiding. The question actually is: is this the direction you want the game to go? As I feel that a raid should not be a glorified UBRS run (which is what 10m is really), I strongly believe that it isn't the right direction to head.
    Nop. If you really think that then you didn't raid 10m this tier. Some encounters are harder in 10m some are harder in 25m. Overall from what I have expericiend and seen in live raids, the tier seems balanced overall. Other that then, any comment you will make 10m vs 25m is either bias or based on nothing at all. 10m might seem easy by the required number but the "player" quality comes into action there. You can't just have "the other guy" kite or interrupt or die.

    As I stated before, 10m and 25m seem about equal in skill/rescource needed this tier, but all need to keep in mind that by the required number of players the ratio will never be 1:1 or you will never have more 25m raiding guilds when both modes are on pair.

    So fair it seems a fair game for the community, don't understand why we need to gimp/buff one mode.
    Last edited by naturestorm; 2012-11-19 at 02:45 PM.

  7. #247
    Archidamos

    let me see if I can put this in a format you might understand, I understand exactly what the issue of "the path of least resistance" is about, and entropy is laughably simple, the fact that 25 man is currently in a state of entropy and has been ever since it stopped generating superior Ilevel gear is a clear indicator that if given the option more people prefer the 10 man format to it. the existence of 25 mans is not endangered by 10 mans. if the rewards are equal and atm they are relatively so, with only a slightly larger ratio of gear to player in the 25 man format, all that has happened is the people who did not really want to do 25 mans aren't. If this results in 25s not happening then you have to find more people who feel as you do and raid with them, The argument is that this has become increasingly difficult, and the answer that is being generated by everyone who is in favor of "saving 25s" is simply a request to force the people who left for 10s to come back to 25s, but no one seems to be willing to admit that is what you are really asking for.

  8. #248
    Bloodsail Admiral xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Shannox 10m required a ranged DPS able to do appropriate burst damage. People had to respec for that. A holy priest was also very good due to body & soul. Whenever you needed a specific class, the likelyhood of a 25m raider having that is simply higher. And there's still unique utility, like smoke bomb and BoP. T11 was generally easier for 25m, FL easier for 10m.

    If you look at Wowprogress right now you can see the first page exclusively 25m with exception of Paragon. If 10m raiding was easier these guilds would've switched to 10m. Simple, really. The first 3 pages, 33% of them are alliance guilds, 67% horde guilds. Guess why that is? I rather see Blizz fix that. 2 top guilds went horde this expansion (vodka and Method) because it helps in progression.
    This is incorrect, because what people fail to realise is; the HARDCORE players, don't want to kill things on the easiest setting, they strive for the prestige that comes with the with killing it in a more coordinated setting of 25man.

    However, when Blizzard removed the higher ilv, and made 10 and 25 'equal' that prestige went out the window. Yes, I know in myself, all I've done in 25man, was done in 25man. But I also know, various bosses I could have killed on 10man without as much learning, coordination, skilled players, etc etc. I got disheartened when in DS, my alt actually out progressed my main, just cause we did 10lman mode, but at the end of the day, on the armoury both toons had the EXACT same gear and achievement, when I know, one of the kills to ALOT more work.

    I have to say, I'm impressed Blizzard have took a step in the right direction, adding the 'Cutting Edge' achievements (for killing bosses pre nerf, or after the nerf [but with it turned off]) - In my opinion, they've also done something fairly nice with challenge modes (the transmog set)

    Blizzard could take this further, by offering 25mans the same amount of loot as now, with the same stats as 10man. But with a much nicer transmog, or perhaps make the 25man loot skinable, so you get the gear regardless, but as a 25man raider you can choose to reskin it to any colour you like. Simple vanity changes like this, wouldn't unbalance the game, but would reward us 25man players for that extra effort we constantly put in.

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  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Daerio View Post
    Pretty big false assumption. I know it's just my personal experience, but literally every person I know dropping down to 10s would rather be doing 25s.
    Yeah, I also really want to play the piano before tens of thousands of people in a big concert, becoming filthy rich doing so, and heading to location in my private jet. Yet I'm not doing that. Maybe because I don't want to do it that badly!! If there's a will, there's a way. There's not enough people willing to do 25m. Else you 25m freaks would form some kind of action platform where all you lost souls would gather. You'd see these threads on MMOC where people are posting "wow you're also really up for 25m? Dude I just got my paycheck from McDs I'm ready for that realm transfer." Guess what? We don't see that at all!! Lots of hot air and smoke, that's what we see instead, but no Sha.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  10. #250
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    10 mans -

    Healer assignments? Don't exist. Cooldown assignments? Don't exist. Split DPS assignments? Don't exist. Enrage timers? Usually completely irrelevant. Interrupt assignments? Typically laughable, comes down to 1, MAYBE 2 people. Loot system? Doesn't exist.

    25 mans -

    Healers must each be assigned. Cooldowns must be assigned at specific times (usually chained) and missing one can result in a wipe. DPS is usually assigned / split up based on class mechanics for real kills. (complex) Enrage timers are usually very tight on early kills. Interrupt assignments typically involve 6-9 people assigned on a specific rotation, 1 person missing theirs out of the group often means a wipe. Doing loot fairly takes extra time.

    I was talking to my wife a week or two ago, who raids 10 mans, and she was telling me how heroic Stone Guardians was going to be hard this week because Jasper Guardian was up. I laughed, because 25 man deals with all four guardians every week. Yeah. 10 man is equal...
    You forgot something: Positioning, spreading out and general view of the battlefield.

    Since the rooms are the same size for both raids its heaps easier to spread out and find positions in 10man while in 25man you usually have to share your spot with s/o else.

    It's easier to see what's going on because there is a lot less going on in 10man.

    We adopted a few 10man raiders last ID and they on Stone guard they were like "Omg so much chaos, so much going on here!!"

    10mans:
    too unforgiving. if everyone is average skill, just 1 person not performing can wipe the group.

    25mans:
    too forgiving. you can have a couple brain-deads and a few scrubs and still beat most encounters.
    You can bring brain dead as long as you have peeps performing ABOVE average in the raid. If you don't then you're just as screwed as in 10man.

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  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    Nop. If you really think that then you didn't raid 10m this tier. Some encounters are harder in 10m some are harder in 25m. Overall from what I have expericiend and seen in live raids, the tier seems balanced overall. Other that then, any comment you will make 10m vs 25m is either bias or based on nothing at all. 10m might seem easy by the required number but the "player" quality comes into action there. You can't just have "the other guy" kite or interrupt or die.

    As I stated before, 10m and 25m seem about equal in skill/rescource needed this tier, but all need to keep in mind that by the required number the ratio will never be 1:1 or you will never have more 25m raiding guilds when both modes are on pair.
    Sorry, but our 10m altraid begs to differ.
    Champion of the Naaru | Hand of A'dal | Twilight Vanquisher | the Astral Walker | the Light of Dawn | Dragonslayer | Firelord | Savior of Azeroth

  12. #252
    The Insane Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Really? Why aren't these people simply going 25m raiding then? Address this, and win.
    Logistics.
    It's easier to get 10 committed people than 25 committed people, hence there's a rise of 10 man guilds. And unfortunately not every guild has the capacity to simply crank up to 25 man, without losing quality, if they even get 25 ppl.

    The difficulty on both raid systems is pretty much balanced. Maybe with a slight advantage towards 10 man in regard of easier.. On a scale from 1 - 100 with 100 being easier I would say 55 - 10 man : 45 - 25 man.

    It is however a lot more difficult (time investment, counseling, change encounter approach during the raid) to organize and to maintain 25 man raids.

  13. #253
    10mans get the apropriate number of loots
    25mans get the apropriate number of loots
    both do it by choise...

    but the second group actually wants more rewards for doing something they like to do...even tho its the officers/guild master who does the extra job....and THEY DO IT BY CHOICE.....but u say we like it more.... then go do it and stop crying ?

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    This is incorrect, because what people fail to realise is; the HARDCORE players, don't want to kill things on the easiest setting, they strive for the prestige that comes with the with killing it in a more coordinated setting of 25man.
    Very true. That 0,1 of raiding population, true hardcore players, want recognition and prestige and they get it by raiding the hardest difficulty. Thus you see all top guilds being 25 man. Only Paragon is 10 but they stated multiple times they would rather raid 25 but are not able to at the moment.

  15. #255
    25m the fight is the same every week. LFR and 10m differs. The Jasper chains were quite a bitch on 10m because they were spawning as quick as on 25m, and together with RNG on which one is down your entire raid could become chained which is first of all not melee friendly and second doesn't work well with the tile mechanic.
    You think we didn't suffer through wipes on 25 man when we went a long time without a Jasper Petrification with bad RNG? lol. Whole raid chained together, can't do tiles - it isn't just a 10 man mechanic. Going for weeks without even knowing about a boss mechanic? That's a 10 man thing. Hardcore, bro.

    That's right, it isn't casual friendly. I have state of the art AMD CPU with state of the art Radeon yet it is too laggy to play 25m competitively. And I don't want to invest because "Bob" here is telling me I should switch back to 25m.
    Chances are good you're lying about your "state of the art" specs, and/or that you don't know how to configure your settings correctly. (which you could take 10 minutes to figure out, or ask a random that would know how) "My computer lags in 25s" is by far the most common excuse, and 90% of the time it's bunk.

    No, no. If there would be one raid size of 15m then LFR would also be 15m. It'd make tuning and comparing easier. And it'd also make my experience in LFR as a 10m raider (then 15m raider) more fun because I can apply what I know from 15m to LFR and my computer would run it fine (its more than capable of doing 10m).
    It'd make tuning easier if we just eliminated 10 man as well. Probably should just do that. (your argument, reversed)

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    Hardly, when we go 10 we just do some random shit and the boss dies while we need to asign specific tasks. It's true those are present in 10...but not even as close as 25 unless you outgear it in 25.
    I hardly think someone who hasn't killed a single boss in heroic mode has a say in the matter.

    --REMOVED--
    --REMOVED--

    Can't kill HoF bosses even in 10 man, loooool.

    Don't name & shame
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2012-11-19 at 02:57 PM.

  17. #257
    Why do you need more rewards? You want to play with 24 instead of 9 others. Why should that be rewarded?!

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Proteus View Post
    Sorry, but our 10m altraid begs to differ.
    Then you are as bad as your alt raid is. You give 0 arguments, just stick to your propaganda and when we will all be 25m raids then your excuses for "10m is piss easy, no need to compare rankings with them" will go out the window, as two 10m raiding guilds merged will outrank your "old" 25m raid guild.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Offering a reward kinda seems like saying "There are two raid formats, we consider one superior and bribe you to do it".

    I don't understand why people keep insisting that 25 man raiding must be "saved". We are talking about a game, a hobby, a nice way to pass the time. Play it as you like it. Apparently of the world best 20 guilds, the majority thinks 25 man work better. Beyond that, more and more favor 10 mans.
    More and more favor 10 man for the same reason people favor 2's in arena, the logistics are easy. For the best guilds, logistics are less of a problem because of the mindset those who are attracted to such guilds already have. Saying 'eh, there's no reason to offer incentive not to take the path of least resistance' isn't a terribly sound point of view in my opinion.

  20. #260
    I dont really see a point of dedicated rewards.

    And from my pov (experience in both 10H/25H): the feeling when you down the difficult boss after countless number of tries in 25 H > all.

    10 man version of raiding is just like demo version of game.

    But if anyone brings different opinion, it is fine. Whatever you think about it has to be Win - Win change.

    If you really want something that differs both raid frames: let it be details: double valor points, no repair costs, more gold drops, titles, vanity, raid perks etc.

    Any ideas about loot will give result of: "dont force us raiding 25 etc".

    Cheers
    sultangurde
    Every time you say "I don't believe in fearies" one of they dies...

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