How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Deleted]

Thats BS cause shannox required a 30k hit to compensate excactly for the small amout of people that are required for that "raid".
In 25 you needed a 45k hit. Dont remind me of firelands plz. There was not another tier so imbalanced in favor of 10 man in the history of wow.
If the hit required was 30k you might have a point. Right now? No it is just a silly examble that fails to deliver.
Try again.

And that hit still required a class who can do burst DPS on demand. During progression, not every class was capable of doing that. Afterwards, neither. I remember doing it during DS while farming a legendary, and the mage was fire, the hunter wasn't MM. Mechanics like these force people into playing a certain spec, and such mechanics favor 25m just like rogues on Spiritbinder are a great asset and are more common in a roster for 25m. I'm also not reminding you of FL, you brought up Beth yourself.

Those guilds are raiding as 25s for 8 years most of them. You think that people want to downsize and raid 10 for better progress when they can still compete as 25?

If 10m gives them better progress, yes!

What else you fail to comprehend is that 25s are not dead for the top guilds. They are dead for the VAST majority of the player base. And there are many reasosns for this to happen, reasons certainly not related with the term "choice" that is getting abused for 2 years now.

Oh I understand that perfectly fine and as far as I'm concerned it is time to put the final nail on the coffin for 25m raiding. It simply doesn't scale unless you're a hardcore player, and putting such a large amount of development time in such a niche simply isn't worth the USD for Blizzard (and not worth my monthly 15 EUR tax either)

Due to this I believe switching to 15m is the best solution to the problem. The rest is just duct-tape (consumables etc are too minor to be relevant) or plain unfair to 10m (charms, extra loot, more mounts).

[Wildtree]

This 110%.

Rewarding for "logistical effort" only comes down to 1-2 people tops. The other 23-24 people in the raid do absolutely nothing different than they would in 10 mans. So I guess the guild leader and/or raid leader should get the rewards. Reward the whole raid for something they don't do? Nah, I don't think so.

I'll be glad when they shit can 25 mans all together. Hopefully before the next expac, if not, then for sure when the next expac hits.

I have to agree with this to some extent.
For the raiders themselves. There's really not much difference. Actually, even though the encounter itself may be a bit more difficult, the raider alone has probably even an easier job in 25 man, other than maybe trickier positioning observations. For the executives (raid leaders) the job is definitely more intense tho.

[Deleted]

I've been playing since Vanilla but i still fail to understand how people consider the logistics of 25m (or 40) a more hardcore and prestigious part of raiding than 10m, i've always seen it as a hassle to carry people. I am not in any way implying that this is the case in every 25m guild but chances are pretty high someone is tailgating in a guild that isnt top50/100 or whatever.

I can and do however understand that 25 (or 40) people screaming after a first-kill on ventrilo/mumble feels more epic and resembles the old nostalgia days of Vanilla more than 10m does, but for me it's simply worth more raiding with my friends instead of needing/having to beg sub-par people to raid.

[Deleted]

As said before and as will be said many more times: If you need to make 25 man raids more appealing, let them die. If you like doing 25s, go do 25s or find a guild that does. No one says you have to raid 10 mans.

This exactly!

The way it is now is the way it needs to stay.

Right now the only thing that weights on the decision of raiding 10 or 25 man is preference. Noone is being forced to do 25man or vice-versa like in WOTLK.

From the threads on multiple forums, it seems there are LOTS of ppl interested in 25man....it shouldn't be hard to find guilds that want to raid 25man.

Is it harder to maintain a 25man raiding guild? Assign more officers, instead of having 2 ppl managing the raiding group, setting up raids on calendar/website, sorting out the gbank etc etc, split it all amongst more ppl, so the weight is easier to manage.

right now it's the ONLY fair way. Ppl should be raiding x or y because they PREFER, they enjoy more, not because the game "forces" you to do it by giving better rewards in 1 than the other...

[Deleted]

Then you are as bad as your alt raid is. You give 0 arguments, just stick to your propaganda and when we will all be 25m raids then your excuses for "10m is piss easy, no need to compare rankings with them" will go out the window, as two 10m raiding guilds merged will outrank your "old" 25m raid guild.

You're claiming interrupting / kiting is hard, yet I'm bad? QED if you ask me.

I'd love to see the 10m guilds merging trying to come close to their previous progress. I really would love that.

[Deleted]

If i am a typical low grunt raider who just want to raid and do not want to lead. I would probably choose 10 man. Why would i do that?
In 10 man circling around that raidteam is about 12-14 people. In 25 man circling around that raidteam is around 33-37 people. I would in the 10 man stand a better chance of getting to raid whenever i want to raid. And i probably will not have to be swapped out of the raid for certain encounters where you need more tanks, more healers or different dps, that have skills better suited for a certain encounter.
What good is it to me to choose the 25 man package if i as a typical low grunt raider get hazzle and do not get to decide when i raid?

A lot of 25 man guilds on my server died not because they lacked people who wanted to lead them, but because they could not recruit new people for their raidteams to replace those who moved on in life etc. Because the typical raider looked at 25 man and the commitment and compromices and thought hey i will just do 10 man it is easier and i will get my loot anyway.
And yes that is my claim that the typical raider will choose whichever format gets him to the his or her goal the fastest and easiest. Most do not care about the format.

On-topic: In a world with an abundance of gold. Gold is not the answer.
Cauldrons would be a nice perk but nothing that would move anything.
have-group-will-travel only for 25 man also not something that will blow you mind, it is nice but thats it in the end you will have 2 people going to the instance summoning the rest from their coffee/toilet breaks.
Cheaper feast personally i think the feast schould cost the same, it used to be the same price in wrath and cata. And the cost for 10 man feast make it easier for the individual raider to maybe contribute a couple of feast once in a while.
What would make a splash would be if 25 man dropped already valor enhanced gear. So 25 man raiders wouldn't have to grind endless daylies every week to cap valor that they can spend to upgrade their gear. (would it be fair, oh well i didn't say that, but it would be a heck of an incentive).

Best idea scrap both formats settle for one size and make raids one size. I think for blizz it would be easier to make new raids without having to balance them for 2 formats. And maybe we can get content at a better pace, or at least so that we don't get 17 bosses at launch and then have to drag out a final tier with 8 boses or so for a year..

[Raelbo]

Another poster with no clue about terms like "entropy" or "path of least resistance".

To be fair, I don't believe you have a clue about what those actually mean either.

I ll give you my favorite argument for such a missinformed opinion like yours.
Make 5 man share content/lock/difficulty/achievement/loot with 10 man.
See 10 man crumble?
Wouldnt that be an indication that "there is a problem with 10s"???

Funnily enough, last time you came up with this preposterous "proof" I did a poll on MMO-Champ to see how many people would prefer 5 man raiding to 10 man raiding. No surprise, a mere 9% said they would go to 5 man raiding.

The fact is that 10 man is actually a nice raid size which works well. Which is why it is so successful.

According to your logic there would be a problem.
But because your logic is flawed, no there wouldnt be any problem.
The problem would be with the stupid raiding model that allow 10 man to cherry pick 5 best people and claim for them better progress and loot, while the other 5 can go s##ew themselves!

Look, if Blizzard offered 5 man raiding and suddenly all the 10 man guilds collapsed, by definition there would be no problem. If people genuinely preferred 5 man raiding then why try to push them elsewhere? I cannot understand your desire to force everyone to raid a format just because you prefer it. That is an incredibly selfish stance to take. Let people choose what raid format they want to raid.

And the truth is right there!
It is called LFR!
A mode that atm is 10 times more popular than the 10 man...Why?
You just push a button and you loot!
Smt even easier than forming a 10 man team.

I don't think your cynicism is justified. People don't raid just for loot.

The real draw about raiding is the satisfaction of progression, of spending time with friends, of achieving goals, mastering a fight, seeing a boss go down for the first time. And yes, loot is part of it, but loot is merely a means to an end - namely to enable further progression and all the things that entails.

If all I was interested in was loot I would pay someone else to get it for me.

People don't avoid 25 man because it is harder. They avoid it because it is more hassle, and not as much fun. When you talk about people taking the "path of least resistance" it's not about avoiding the harder challenge. It's about avoiding unnecessary hassle. That is a perfectly acceptable and rational approach, and honestly, I am somewhat disgusted by the contempt you continue to show to such people.

I am sorry Archidamos that no one else wants to play your game with you the way you like it. But getting rude, angry and upset at us does not help your case. Nor does campaigning to force us to play your way help either.

[Deathgoose]

You post is wrong. Before ppl did 25 to get better loot, now many ppl do 10 man because it is easier to find 10 man guild due to ppl not wanting to deal with difficulties of leading 25 man guild which results in too few 25 man guilds for all ppl that wanna raid in them. You would be surprised at how many ppl raid 10 mans but would rather raid in 25 mans

Everytime I see this argument, I can't help but think that the only people that "want" to do 25m are the ones that are not actually burdened with the logistics of making a 25m happen (i.e. the raid leaders/officers) but are just the rank and file guys that want no real responsibility towards the raid yet want the 'prestige' of being able to call themselves 25m raiders for doing no more than what they would do in a 10m raid. (i.e. log in at raid time, not stand in the fire, bring flasks, know fights, etc.)

Because if the reverse was true, and the raid leaders/officers truly wanted to do 25m and truly wanted to deal with the extra logistical pain in the ass that 25m brings over 10m, then they would be running 25m!

[Tepesch]

I've been playing since Vanilla but i still fail to understand how people consider the logistics of 25m (or 40) a more hardcore and prestigious part of raiding than 10m, i've always seen it as a hassle to carry people. I am not in any way implying that this is the case in every 25m guild but chances are pretty high someone is tailgating in a guild that isnt top50/100 or whatever.

I can and do however understand that 25 (or 40) people screaming after a first-kill on ventrilo/mumble feels more epic and resembles the old nostalgia days of Vanilla more than 10m does, but for me it's simply worth more raiding with my friends instead of needing/having to beg people to raid.

This should exactly be the whole point of the discussion.

DO whatever is more epic, or more rewarding to you. If you like 25man more, do 25man, if you like 10man more do 10man.

And if you say you can't find people for a 25man, don't blame the other people, imo it's blizzards fault that a lot of servers seem to die out and that you can't find 24 likeminded players on your realm

[Deleted]

You think we didn't suffer through wipes on 25 man when we went a long time without a Jasper Petrification with bad RNG? lol. Whole raid chained together, can't do tiles - it isn't just a 10 man mechanic. Going for weeks without even knowing about a boss mechanic? That's a 10 man thing. Hardcore, bro.

The spawnrate of chains was the same in 10m as in 25m whereas 25m has 2,5 times more players. Mathematics and logic isn't your strongest quality, I see.

Chances are good you're lying about your "state of the art" specs, and/or that you don't know how to configure your settings correctly. (which you could take 10 minutes to figure out, or ask a random that would know how) "My computer lags in 25s" is by far the most common excuse, and 90% of the time it's bunk.

You have nothing to back up that nonsense you wrote there.

I'm not lying about my specs. I also have a SSD and 12 GB RAM. The culprit is the CPU, and it'd require obviously also a new motherboard. Not something I'm willing to invest cuz "Bob" here wants me to go back to 25m, or wants me to be awesome in LFR or Sha/Galleon.

It'd make tuning easier if we just eliminated 10 man as well. Probably should just do that. (your argument, reversed)

Thing is, many more people are both playing and enjoying 10m. They don't want the logistical nightmare of 25m if they wanted that, they'd opt for that, and you'd see 25m popular (especially when it was easier than 10m). If you can piss off 0,1% of your player base to cut costs that's more sensible to do than say 10% of your playerbase. Because all them trade PuGs are still going to be 10m. It is a good thing you don't work at marketing. You'd destroy the business for sure.

[Maelstrom51]

Hardly, when we go 10 we just do some random shit and the boss dies while we need to asign specific tasks. It's true those are present in 10...but not even as close as 25 unless you outgear it in 25.

I looked up your armory and must politely ask how you came to this conclusion when you and your guild can not kill normal mode Heart of Fear bosses even on the "easy" 10 man mode.

Are you sure your analysis is correct when you are not close to the top tier of raiding, 10 man or otherwise?

[TOM_RUS]

I don't see how 25 mans have more "logistical effort" than 10 mans. If you miss 1 person in 10 man raid, you probably screwed and raid won't happen while most of 25 mans have bunch of ppl for replacement...

[Daerio]

Something that could actually help (that Blizzard will definitely never think about implementing) is allowing free realm transfers for 25 man guilds. (individuals and/or entire guilds) Finding a new 25 man on another realm that you can fit in with isn't always easy, and being able to try out a new place relatively risk-free would be interesting.

Totally exploitable and not enforceable, and definitely not good for getting Blizz extra dollars.

[Wildtree]

Those guilds are raiding as 25s for 8 years most of them.

There are no 25 man raids in the game for 8 years Make it more like 5 years.
The first 25 man raids were Gruuls, Mags Lair, Serpent Shrine, Tk, Mt Hyjal in TBC.

Vanilla had 20 man and 40 man..
20 man = ZG (patch 1.7 , and AQ Ruins. (patch 1.9)

[Radalek]

And that hit still required a class who can do burst DPS on demand. During progression, not every class was capable of doing that. Afterwards, neither. I remember doing it during DS while farming a legendary, and the mage was fire, the hunter wasn't MM. Mechanics like these force people into playing a certain spec, and such mechanics favor 25m just like rogues on Spiritbinder are a great asset and are more common in a roster for 25m. I'm also not reminding you of FL, you brought up Beth yourself.

If 10m gives them better progress, yes!

Oh I understand that perfectly fine and as far as I'm concerned it is time to put the final nail on the coffin for 25m raiding. It simply doesn't scale unless you're a hardcore player, and putting such a large amount of development time in such a niche simply isn't worth the USD for Blizzard (and not worth my monthly 15 EUR tax either)

Due to this I believe switching to 15m is the best solution to the problem. The rest is just duct-tape (consumables etc are too minor to be relevant) or plain unfair to 10m (charms, extra loot, more mounts).

No no and no, you fail to understand. All those top guilds are more than aware they would stomp all bosses if they would go 10 man. But they don't want to. They want to be recognized by raiding top tier raiding and highest difficulty. They want the hardest challenges and to be best at it. Thus they will never go 10 man unless they can't avoid it like Paragon. They repeated that multiple times.

[Mun]

From the threads on multiple forums, it seems there are LOTS of ppl interested in 25man....it shouldn't be hard to find guilds that want to raid 25man.

And yet, it is. There are a lot of realm transfer when it comes to 25 man recruitement. In my guild, the cross-realm recruit has a ratio of 4/5. That is huge. So yeah, we get gear faster and stuff, but I'm pretty sure that on average, we paye more to be able to do 25 man raiding.

I'm pretty sure you over simplifie something when you say :

Is it harder to maintain a 25man raiding guild? Assign more officers, instead of having 2 ppl managing the raiding group, setting up raids on calendar/website, sorting out the gbank etc etc, split it all amongst more ppl, so the weight is easier to manage.

You most likely never managed a 25 raiding guild.

[Wildtree]

I don't see how 25 mans have more "logistical effort" than 10 mans. If you miss 1 person in 10 man raid, you probably screwed and raid won't happen while most of 25 mans have bunch of ppl for replacement...

Why would it be harder to replace 1 person compared to 2, 3 , or 4?
In either way your raid dynamics are disturbed. And have you ever tried to babysit people? Yes I mean it. babysit. Because that's the only fitting term.
9 individuals are a lot easier to handle and to manage than 24...

[Granyala]

Are you sure your analysis is correct when you are not close to the top tier of raiding, 10 man or otherwise?

You do realize he's just a troll, right?

While I can only speak for Will of the Emperor, as it's the only Encounter I had the opportunity to do in 10 man:
It's A LOT easier in 10 man but no where near "Do random stuff and it dies".

If I read the forums correctly, currently Will is the encounter that has the biggest difference in difficulty.

And have you ever tried to babysit people? Yes I mean it. babysit. Because that's the only fitting term.

Was an officer in a raiding guild in wrath... boy this one is right. That task can completely drain the fun out of WoW. You won't believe the trivial things that makes peeps QQ <_<
Never going to do that job again.

[Deleted]

It's also quite hard when people say this or that is harder on 25/10ms. Everything on Normal is easy, period.

[Olddreth]

I don't see how 25 mans have more "logistical effort" than 10 mans. If you miss 1 person in 10 man raid, you probably screwed and raid won't happen while most of 25 mans have bunch of ppl for replacement...

So you Raid with 10 people only instead of 12-14? Your Problem. When 1 person is missing in 10 man the chance that 2,5 are missing in 25 man very high.

As a RL in 25 man i can say, that i don't wanna some kind of reward to myself. Instead make der format more rewarding itself what would mean that i have to spend less time in recruiting people. Seems fair to me.