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  1. #561
    Legendary! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    No, its not. Not so long as those 270k+ actually want to do 10s. There is no magical law that states there should be some fixed ratio.



    So, for you to have fun, we need to drag 10 players from a format they enjoy?

    EJL
    Who says they necessarily enjoy 10-man raiding? Most people just enjoy raiding, period. The reason there has ended up being so many 10-man guilds and so few 25-man guilds is because it's far easier to guarantee a smoother progression path through 10-man than it is through 25-man. However, that said, if 25's had higher incentive to include the people who are doing 10-man for that single purpose, it would make 25-man raiding just as easy of a smooth progression path because people would be equally inclined to participate in it for higher rewards.

    Most people that I know that raid don't care about raid size nearly as much as they care about one of three things. A. having fun, b. progression, or c. reward. In most cases, a. and b. are intertwined together. Right now, c. no longer exists because reward is pretty much equal (though the statistical probability of getting a particular item is higher in 25's, that's still not incentive enough to make it equally or more viable of a format option). As of right now, from personal experience of doing both formats in this tier of content, I can tell you that 25-man has stricter number crunches while 10-man requires stricter execution of mechanics. Mechanics are always easier to execute than numbers, therefore by default, 10-mans in some cases are easier. People will take the path of least resistance if reward is equal.

    However, if reward is greater, they will take the path of greater reward as long as a. and b. are still connected to c. In other words, if 25-man gives more reward incentive, and people can have fun and progress as easily as they can in 10-man, then people will be more inclined to choose 25-man. Provided the loot is identically styled (in other words, not like the failure of ToC and ICC loot styles that really DID require you to do 25's if you wanted to min/max), then people won't be "forced" to do 25-man because you won't need that gear to progress through 10-man formats. People that want to do 10-man will do 10-man and have gear that isn't at an extreme disadvantage over people who would choose 25-man. Six or so item level is not going to make a difference in any fight in 10-man provided the stats are still identically styled.

    As of right now, format is not being selected on what people enjoy. It's being selected on what has a greater effort to reward ratio. Right now, 10-man has a greater effort to reward ratio because the reward is identical and the effort for numbers is a bit lower. To compensate, 25-man should have a higher reward ratio to help balance the scales. That way, people are picking the format they want to play and not the format that has less resistance. I'm not even factoring in the application process that most people just can't be bothered to mess with to join a 25-man guild (which has no relation to the in-game problems of the two formats, but does affect the format differential just as much).

    My guild is on the verge of total collapse. I'm sorry, but if Blizzard gave us a helping hand, I would not be incredibly sad to see the online place that I call home crumbling around me. And, for those of you curious, yes. I AM an officer in my guild. I do raid lead in 25's (and I even raid lead in our 10's...we still separate our roles accordingly there, and nobody in the guild knows healing better than I do). I speak from firsthand experience on the issue. If the system gave someone from a 10-man guild just looking to raid a reason to come with us instead of sticking to 10-man, then everything would be solved. Both formats could flourish equally. I think some people seem to suspect that most 25-man raiders want 10-man to be inferior. While some posters here may reflect that type of attitude, those of us with intelligence don't want that. We just want both to be equal options. Right now, 25-man is an inferior option. It needs a boost.

  2. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    Did you even look at the graph since they removed the double lockout?
    Does it matter? His solutions are still old news, his solutions have been suggested before, his solutions do not address the issues with the LK model.

    Your graph is interesting. Misleading in certain aspects, but interesting.

    EJL

  3. #563
    Scarab Lord Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown View Post
    . Right now, 25-man is an inferior option. It needs a boost.
    Not so, right now it's technically the superior option for the average raider, it just isn't superior enough for the people that matter - those who raid lead.
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

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  4. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown View Post
    Who says they necessarily enjoy 10-man raiding? Most people just enjoy raiding, period. The reason there has ended up being so many 10-man guilds and so few 25-man guilds is because it's far easier to guarantee a smoother progression path through 10-man than it is through 25-man. However, that said, if 25's had higher incentive to include the people who are doing 10-man for that single purpose, it would make 25-man raiding just as easy of a smooth progression path because people would be equally inclined to participate in it for higher rewards.

    Most people that I know that raid don't care about raid size nearly as much as they care about one of three things. A. having fun, b. progression, or c. reward. In most cases, a. and b. are intertwined together. Right now, c. no longer exists because reward is pretty much equal (though the statistical probability of getting a particular item is higher in 25's, that's still not incentive enough to make it equally or more viable of a format option). As of right now, from personal experience of doing both formats in this tier of content, I can tell you that 25-man has stricter number crunches while 10-man requires stricter execution of mechanics. Mechanics are always easier to execute than numbers, therefore by default, 10-mans in some cases are easier. People will take the path of least resistance if reward is equal.

    However, if reward is greater, they will take the path of greater reward as long as a. and b. are still connected to c. In other words, if 25-man gives more reward incentive, and people can have fun and progress as easily as they can in 10-man, then people will be more inclined to choose 25-man. Provided the loot is identically styled (in other words, not like the failure of ToC and ICC loot styles that really DID require you to do 25's if you wanted to min/max), then people won't be "forced" to do 25-man because you won't need that gear to progress through 10-man formats. People that want to do 10-man will do 10-man and have gear that isn't at an extreme disadvantage over people who would choose 25-man. Six or so item level is not going to make a difference in any fight in 10-man provided the stats are still identically styled.

    As of right now, format is not being selected on what people enjoy. It's being selected on what has a greater effort to reward ratio. Right now, 10-man has a greater effort to reward ratio because the reward is identical and the effort for numbers is a bit lower. To compensate, 25-man should have a higher reward ratio to help balance the scales. That way, people are picking the format they want to play and not the format that has less resistance. I'm not even factoring in the application process that most people just can't be bothered to mess with to join a 25-man guild (which has no relation to the in-game problems of the two formats, but does affect the format differential just as much).

    My guild is on the verge of total collapse. I'm sorry, but if Blizzard gave us a helping hand, I would not be incredibly sad to see the online place that I call home crumbling around me. And, for those of you curious, yes. I AM an officer in my guild. I do raid lead in 25's (and I even raid lead in our 10's...we still separate our roles accordingly there, and nobody in the guild knows healing better than I do). I speak from firsthand experience on the issue. If the system gave someone from a 10-man guild just looking to raid a reason to come with us instead of sticking to 10-man, then everything would be solved. Both formats could flourish equally. I think some people seem to suspect that most 25-man raiders want 10-man to be inferior. While some posters here may reflect that type of attitude, those of us with intelligence don't want that. We just want both to be equal options. Right now, 25-man is an inferior option. It needs a boost.
    I personally don't care if they're equal or not, I and a lot of other people want to be able to raid BOTH again.

    Oh and this man raised a point that I'd completely forgotten about, it's not that big a deal in the absence of reforging, but there was 10man loot that was your BiS piece in some tiers, but it was mostly 25man loot that was your BiS, not because of the higher iLvl, that had slight bearing, but without reforging, the stats on a piece of gear mattered A LOT.
    A lot of the 25man gear was just straight up itemised better.

  5. #565
    Returning to the model where 10/25 have separate lockouts seems like a pretty solid choice. I was a 10 man raider at the end of WotLK when it was announced how Cata was "supposed" to work. I remember how many PUGs were lurking around ALL THE TIME. 25s pugged for 10s, 10s pugged for 25s - MY guild pugged to do 25s, it wasn't hard. The community in general was way more active with each other. It's a very positive thing for the "PUG" community to be that active again.

    The only argument people have against it is, "but I'm forced to do both now!" (not true, people QQ about LFR also) and "It's easier for 25 mans to do both! >" - Good, that's the point now.

    Keep gear the same, who cares.

  6. #566
    Banned Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    Oh and if someone could find the blue post for me about 10s/25s.
    In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.
    Yeah, pretty much the opposite of what you said.

    There is a reason they created LFR as 25 only. Less responsibility per player = easier completion.

  7. #567
    Pandaren Monk Marston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Yeah, pretty much the opposite of what you said.

    There is a reason they created LFR as 25 only. Less responsibility per player = easier completion.
    That's not the reason. It's to have shorter queue times, because both, 10 man and 25 man, need 2 tanks. But 10 man has 3 healers and 5 DPS, where as 25 man has 6 healers and 17 DPS.

    And now I must admit, even though I opened the thread, it's to fast getting new replies. I lost it somewhere on page 14.

    As for the shart that was posted, you have to remember that those number are from kills over the whole tier/expansion. Tis tier/expansion is only out for 2 months. I am pretty sure we will see more kills and so get an overall larger pool of players wo participiated in raiding if we wait another few months - at least until this tier ends.

  8. #568
    I am Murloc! Volitar's Avatar
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    As a 25 raider I don't want or need another reward. Raiding 25 is not a chore for me it is the game for me.
    resto shaman <- washed up idiot

  9. #569
    Herald of the Titans velde046's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    All these guilds that people looked up to, watched the videos of and said, some day I want to be as good as that person, I want to be able to kill those heroic bosses, I wish I was that good.
    Not even once have I even wished 'I was that good'. Honestly. I am just in the game to enjoy it, not to be competitive really.

    And anyone who says they never looked up to people who wore all the amazing gear, had Invincible/Mim's head and rode around on it, Ashes in BC even, you looked up to those people with a level of awe, those were the reasons you got hooked on this game, you wanted to be like that person.
    And yes, I looked at those people, but not in awe and they aren't the reason I got hooked. If I looked it would only be to find out what it was that the person was wearing or riding. The fact that they have it and I probaly never will does not change a thing, nor do I have any desire to be like that person.
    Frankly this says more about you than any other person playing.

    Whenever I am witness to a realm first or world first I may congratulate the person, but a minute after that it's out of my system really and I'm continuing my game.
    Like I said I have no desire to be the best in the game or compete with others, I mainly play to enjoy myself.
    And with me there are tons of people that feel the same way...

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Yeah, pretty much the opposite of what you said.

    There is a reason they created LFR as 25 only. Less responsibility per player = easier completion.
    That was a blue post SPECIFICALLY about LFR.
    There was a blue post about 25man and 10man NORMAL/HEROIC MODES that stated in not many uncertain terms, that 25man was considered to be the harder form of raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marston View Post
    That's not the reason. It's to have shorter queue times, because both, 10 man and 25 man, need 2 tanks. But 10 man has 3 healers and 5 DPS, where as 25 man has 6 healers and 17 DPS.

    And now I must admit, even though I opened the thread, it's to fast getting new replies. I lost it somewhere on page 14.

    As for the shart that was posted, you have to remember that those number are from kills over the whole tier/expansion. Tis tier/expansion is only out for 2 months. I am pretty sure we will see more kills and so get an overall larger pool of players wo participiated in raiding if we wait another few months - at least until this tier ends.
    But Cata lasted an entire expansion with a 30% nerf, and still had under half the active players that Wrath did (with subsidies to prevent overlapping during Wrath).
    Maybe this expansion's data is slightly biased, but the Cata data isn't.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 11:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by velde046 View Post
    Not even once have I even wished 'I was that good'. Honestly. I am just in the game to enjoy it, not to be competitive really.


    And yes, I looked at those people, but not in awe and they aren't the reason I got hooked. If I looked it would only be to find out what it was that the person was wearing or riding. The fact that they have it and I probaly never will does not change a thing, nor do I have any desire to be like that person.
    Frankly this says more about you than any other person playing.

    Whenever I am witness to a realm first or world first I may congratulate the person, but a minute after that it's out of my system really and I'm continuing my game.
    Like I said I have no desire to be the best in the game or compete with others, I mainly play to enjoy myself.
    And with me there are tons of people that feel the same way...
    You're one of a small number.
    If everyone thought like you, major sports players wouldn't get paid the amount they do.

    Also, signatures like yours piss me off SO MUCH when you can't click each little character square to see their armories.

  11. #571
    Legendary! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Not so, right now it's technically the superior option for the average raider, it just isn't superior enough for the people that matter - those who raid lead.
    That's a very false assumption, and some 25-man guilds just don't have an effective leadership core in place. One of the greatest strengths of my particular 25-man raid team is the leadership structure. A good 25-man leadership team needs to involve about five or so raid leaders.

    - 1 person to lead the overall raid. Calling incoming mechanics for everyone to pay attention to. This job is actually the easiest.
    - 2 raid leaders to lead the DPS. They give the DPS assignments for any fights that involve adds, target switching, alternate locations (such as Spiritbinder), and any other factors that would be DPS-centered.
    - 1-2 raid leaders to lead the healers. They give the healers their healing assignments (who's healing the tanks and who's focusing on the raid healing), give positioning assignments (for any fight that requires the raid to split up, such as Elegon), set up cooldown rotations (for fights such as Will of the Emperor or Feng), and if needed can select which healers are used to swap roles (if fewer healers are required for a particular fight to meet a DPS requirement, which happened quite a bit in Dragon Soul heroic).
    - 1-2 raid leaders should be tanks. It is more ideal to have both of your tanks be effective raid leaders. Therefore, they basically lead themselves and it is one less aspect for the rest of the raid to be worried about.

    The average 25-man guild doesn't set up a leadership structure in this manner. If led properly, 25-man is actually EASIER to lead because the division of responsibility is a lower ratio than in 10-man. The average 10-man is led by 1-2 people. An effective 25-man is led by 5-6 people. For a well-structured 25-man guild, leadership is actually the lowest of problems. All of my previously covered points are far higher on the list of issues.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    There is a reason they created LFR as 25 only. Less responsibility per player = easier completion.
    No, LFR is 25 because it's easier to fill them automatically that way. It's also not true that in 25s you can "fade back into group if you're still not 100% confident", not in any fight that actually matters at least. 25 mans leave much less room for mistakes than 10s simply because in any fight that matters, wasting a battle res to a stupid mistake means you won't kill the boss, and because if everyone in a 25 man raid fails in more than once in 25 tries the boss will never die (in 10 mans that's 1 in 10, much less strict).

  13. #573
    Banned Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    There was a blue post about 25man and 10man NORMAL/HEROIC MODES
    You mean this one?

    25 allows for a more forgiving experience should errors be made by individual players
    I have a hard time remembering, considering how many times they've flat out stated that 25s take less skill to execute than 10s.

    Keep dreaming about your fantasy quote where 25 is somehow harder than 10.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown View Post
    If led properly, 25-man is actually EASIER to lead because the division of responsibility is a lower ratio than in 10-man.
    Also this.
    Last edited by Espe; 2012-11-20 at 03:37 PM.

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    25 allows for a more forgiving experience should errors be made by individual players
    That is flat out false in many, many ways (when talking about progression raiding and bosses that actually mean something).

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    You're one of a small number.
    If everyone thought like you, major sports players wouldn't get paid the amount they do.

    Also, signatures like yours piss me off SO MUCH when you can't click each little character square to see their armories.
    I know quite a few people myself included, who think pretty much exactly like him... at least in terms of gaming. I have very little interest in what other guilds / professional players are doing... I don't know that many people who do, especially if they don't pvp much which is where a lot of the interest in watching other people play really kicks in.

    In response to the OPs question: We don't.

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    There is a reason they created LFR as 25 only. Less responsibility per player = easier completion.
    This is absolutely true but only applies to content where the burden is minimal on all raid members to execute well and coordinate etc. The more coordination required and the higher the necessary level of play the more difficult 25 man becomes simply because there are more people in the raid, more chances to make a mistake etc. It's harder to get 25 people to understand a fight or watch their debuffs, harder to heal a random target out of 25 potential targets on short notice, harder to move in a coordinated way and so on.

    25 man is easier at the LFR difficulty because you can have half the raid die and still stand a reasonable chance of beating an encounter as long as there's some healers and tanks left, give or take the enrage timer. That's less likely to be true in 10 man. The same logic really doesn't apply to heroic raiding, and neither does the quote there.

    The things that made fights like Heroic Rag or Spine harder on 25 man were mostly related to the number of people in the raid on an encounter with 0 margin for error. Losing someone on those fights was a wipe on both 10 and 25, but it's just more problematic to keep everyone alive and performing at their best with way more people in the raid. I doubt we're ever going to see an extremely hard boss (LK/Yogg/M'uru/Rag difficulty) that is comparable across the two formats. We do regularly see easier bosses where difficulty is comparable or even harder on 10 though because the personal responsibility element becomes more significant when tuning is less tight on 25.

  17. #577
    Banned Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    That is flat out false in many, many ways (when talking about progression raiding and bosses that actually mean something).
    I guess you'll just have to agree to disagree with the WoW devs.

  18. #578
    Scarab Lord Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown View Post
    That's a very false assumption, and some 25-man guilds just don't have an effective leadership core in place. One of the greatest strengths of my particular 25-man raid team is the leadership structure. A good 25-man leadership team needs to involve about five or so raid leaders.

    - 1 person to lead the overall raid. Calling incoming mechanics for everyone to pay attention to. This job is actually the easiest.
    - 2 raid leaders to lead the DPS. They give the DPS assignments for any fights that involve adds, target switching, alternate locations (such as Spiritbinder), and any other factors that would be DPS-centered.
    - 1-2 raid leaders to lead the healers. They give the healers their healing assignments (who's healing the tanks and who's focusing on the raid healing), give positioning assignments (for any fight that requires the raid to split up, such as Elegon), set up cooldown rotations (for fights such as Will of the Emperor or Feng), and if needed can select which healers are used to swap roles (if fewer healers are required for a particular fight to meet a DPS requirement, which happened quite a bit in Dragon Soul heroic).
    - 1-2 raid leaders should be tanks. It is more ideal to have both of your tanks be effective raid leaders. Therefore, they basically lead themselves and it is one less aspect for the rest of the raid to be worried about.

    The average 25-man guild doesn't set up a leadership structure in this manner. If led properly, 25-man is actually EASIER to lead because the division of responsibility is a lower ratio than in 10-man. The average 10-man is led by 1-2 people. An effective 25-man is led by 5-6 people. For a well-structured 25-man guild, leadership is actually the lowest of problems. All of my previously covered points are far higher on the list of issues.
    I never mentioned anything about all this stuff.

    I said that 25 man is "the superior option for the average raider, it just isn't superior enough for the people that matter - those who raid lead."

    i.e. why on earth would 5 or 6 people go to all that trouble to do 25 mans when they can just go 10 man and not have to bother with all the extra, with only 1 of them doing it? Most players I genuinely believe don't care much - they just want to improve their toons with the mnimum of fuss. For the average raider 10 man, 25 man, doesn't matter. For those who lead raids, 10 man means probably not leading any more - yay!
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  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    I guess you'll just have to agree to disagree with the WoW devs.
    WoW devs are wrong all the time, especially the ones currently in charge. Their opinion doesn't change facts.

  20. #580
    Scarab Lord Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    That is flat out false in many, many ways (when talking about progression raiding and bosses that actually mean something).
    Again, progression and heroic raiding isn't relly involved in this debate, which is talking about popularity of raid size.
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