How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Spotnick]

Logistical effort? That would be like 4 people out of 25 only, there is absolutely no extra effort for any raiders without an officer position.

And even then, I used to coordinate 5 people when I was melee officer, now I coordinate 10 as raid leader of a 10 man, pretty sure I do a lot more work than many role officers, why would they be more rewarded than me?

See, there is no win there. For me the only way to fix 25 man would be to allow cross-realm raiding, but only in that format. Because it's recruitment that is the issue, nothing else.

[Rickmagnus]

Well yes, a lot of the onus is on the raid leader(s), can't disagree with you there. But there is also the patience of the raiders that should be rewarded. Currently, I could easily leave the 25m I just joined for a 10m for much better progression, but I'm trying to be patient and wait it out until we get more consistent players. This is half the reason 25s are so difficult to get going these days. You get ~15 good players and by the time you find 10 more, 7 of the original have moved on out of impatience. Separate lockouts should be the way to go in my opinion, but with the same level of gear. This way, those who want to run 10s are not obligated to run 25s but you increase the amount of people available for 25s.

Of course, this has the drawback of making people run again to get another shot at gear, but I feel it would be less pressing than if 25s dropped better gear. If anyone can come up with an incentive for 25s that doesn't have drawbacks, I'd be impressed.

I hope to god they do not institute seperate lock outs. If they do then it would be simply a matter of rewarding those who can do 25s and punishing people who cannot. Seen all the rage about being "forced" to do dailies? Times that by about 100 and you'd see why its a bad idea. I really dont see why its a big deal, either you have officers/leaders who really want to do 25s and are commited to finding like minded raiders or you don't. I don't really think they should just keep throwing bonus prizes at 25s until people do them because its a fine line between wanting to do them and needing to (even if the need is only in your head). Not to mention they've said its mostly the organizers who shoulder the burden of making a 25..how do you reward them but leave others who didnt do anything out?

[schwarzkopf]

10's would still get equal quality loot, but would need the extra step.

Just a random thought that came into my head, might be terrible.

Actually one of the better suggestions I've seen.

[Marston]

Well, it might not seem like much, but...

With the new ilvl upgrades through valor coming in 5.1, 10mans could drop the current standard item (496 / 509), and 25's could drop the fully upgraded equivalent (504/517). What it would mean is that as a payoff for the extra logistical work of running 25man, you get to avoid the extra work of needing to chain cap valor with dailies every week.

10's would still get equal quality loot, but would need the extra step.

Just a random thought that came into my head, might be terrible.

I like that, but I would reduce that to maybe one upgraded item per boss. Otherwise the 10 man would start yelling "Better loot!" again. But if is is just one item (and maybe not even a guaranteed drop) why not? At least another nice idea, imo.

[Taiphon]

As said, it's an idea.

But just adding more drops wouldn't be a good idea either. And the stuff I mentioned would at least help the raid somehow, even if it would only mean you don't have to go and farm mats for additional feasts for the next week.

Do you have any other ideas? The one with the choosable loot from the loottable is at least something unique - but if it only has a chance, would it be enough? With bad RNG you would never see it drop. If it would be a guaranteed drop it wouldn't be so "special" anymore.

How about if that chest is automatically rewarded to the raidleader, regardless of lootsettings? He could then choose to distribute the items or not, but it would signify it is intended as reward for the logistics involved.

Give it a chance to drop pieces for a unique raidleader-transmog-set, and I think it would convince more people to organize 25m guilds.

ETA: The key is to have a reward that is really unique to 25m.

[08nolanni]

25's usually gear up pretty quickly (more chances for MS and OS gear. Less waste) Many 10 man guilds shard a lot of gear. Imo anyway.

So the 6th piece idea isn't very favourable and it would encourage people just to make a 25 man for the sake of it.

As another poster said, Bribing 25 man's is pretty sad =(

[Taiphon]

As another poster said, Bribing 25 man's is pretty sad =(

No, the goal is to bribe people to officer a 25m guild.

There are enough people who want to join a 25m guild with equal progress, the problem is finding people who want to organize them.

[eschatological]

And that's the problem. I've been an officer in a 25 man realm first raiding guild. It's not a fun thing to do. I now am a heroic 10 man raider and would never ever go back to 25s because the majority of the 25s are filled with people who just show up and I'd end up being pushed into a more active role just by my personality (which is that of analyzing, leading, etc).

In our 10 man, we have 13 people on roster. 5 of them have been officers/raidleaders in heroic-mode (or equivalent) 25 mans, and would never go back to 25 mans ever. The people in our raid who sometimes wish for 25 man raids have never had the experience of having a leadership role in a 25 man guild.

[maladicta]

Offering a reward kinda seems like saying "There are two raid formats, we consider one superior and bribe you to do it".

I don't understand why people keep insisting that 25 man raiding must be "saved". We are talking about a game, a hobby, a nice way to pass the time. Play it as you like it. Apparently of the world best 20 guilds, the majority thinks 25 man work better. Beyond that, more and more favor 10 mans.

Not everyone is doing 10s because they prefer them but because so many 25 guilds have disbanded or gone 10 man. It's very difficult to find a 25 man guild if your hours are at all unusual which was never a problem before Cataclysm. It's not because we favour 10 mans, it's because it's 10 mans or nothing - 'play it as you like it' isn't actually an option.

And that's the problem. I've been an officer in a 25 man realm first raiding guild. It's not a fun thing to do. I now am a heroic 10 man raider and would never ever go back to 25s because the majority of the 25s are filled with people who just show up and I'd end up being pushed into a more active role just by my personality (which is that of analyzing, leading, etc).

In our 10 man, we have 13 people on roster. 5 of them have been officers/raidleaders in heroic-mode (or equivalent) 25 mans, and would never go back to 25 mans ever. The people in our raid who sometimes wish for 25 man raids have never had the experience of having a leadership role in a 25 man guild.

I've been an officer in a heroic mode 25 man guild, and would go back to 25s in a heartbeat.

[Talen]

This seems like an idea which could be tweaked to work.

Also I will post this on US forum with credits going to you.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...28379?page=1#0

No.

I disagree. The logistics is where the main issue lies.

That means either the rewards should go to raid leaders, tool sput in place to ease their burden, or both.

Rewards SHOULD be something special.....but should also not be soemthignt hat directly or indirectly rewards someone else. Extar gear isn't suitable, IMO, becaus then the RL can just skip so someone else gets gear he would have gotten.

What would be suitable?

Transmog Commanders Armor.
A dedicated title.
Extra VP so he can buy his own gear sooner
A chest containing various potions or flasks.

Or - how about making his life easier?

Access to a toolkit that mimcs AVR for example,
Or how about the ability to hire mercs....assuming loot issues can be dealt with (e.g. there may be chance mercs can win loot that would nomally go to the raid).

EJL

[Archidamos]

LFR proves that people above all value loot.
Since LFR is the most popular, and then 10 man and finally 25 and only for a very negligible minority, it makes it quite obvious that 25 is atm the hardest way to get the loot.

And what we re arguing about here is that loot should stay the same so people can continue doing 10 so they can get their loot with less hassle.

Thats all there is really.

[sulfuric]

Offering a reward kinda seems like saying "There are two raid formats, we consider one superior and bribe you to do it".

I don't understand why people keep insisting that 25 man raiding must be "saved". We are talking about a game, a hobby, a nice way to pass the time. Play it as you like it. Apparently of the world best 20 guilds, the majority thinks 25 man work better. Beyond that, more and more favor 10 mans.

Perhaps the OP wants to raid 25 man, but feels his time is being wasted as 10 is faster and more convenient? Also world top guilds have been 25 mans for years, perhaps they are just maintaining their roster?

[Talen]

And when they announced those horrible changes there is no way to have missed like few hundred posts telling them EXCACTLY what will happen if they go through with them.

They didn't. They even commented on the issue.

1) Leave things as they are----> see more people abandoning raids and just do LFR till they drop dead and discontinue from boredom.

Players will do 10s because 10s offer better gear

2) Change things to make 25s viable -----> Enjoy the angry mob, no offence 10 man lovers that will start yelling "unfair!!!"

Leaving aside the logistics issues, 25s are viable. The problem is so many guilds have transitioned to 10s already so it'll likely be more difficult to get them back.

3) Delete both and make one size ---->have the fanatics of both sizes yelling, although this would have been the best thing for the majority of the raiding player base.

But you would have both sides arguing, unless you made 10s the default size. Which wouldn't be perfect, but which would be acceptable.

They screwed raiding for so many people from the begining of cataclysm

And fixed it for so many others.

EJL

[Marston]

Perhaps the OP wants to raid 25 man, but feels his time is being wasted as 10 is faster and more convenient? Also world top guilds have been 25 mans for years, perhaps they are just maintaining their roster?

For reference, I am raiding 25 man at the moment. Not that successfull, but I am happy. This thread is more about what Blizzard themself said.

They said time and time again that they want to reward the additional difficulty of organizing a 25 man raid compared to a 10 man raid. But they haven't really done anything in that direction yet. This thread is just a suggestion what could be done. And imo just an additional piece of loot isn't the right way. But others have already given some nice ideas.

[Snuzzfizzle]

LFR proves that people above all value loot.
Since LFR is the most popular, and then 10 man and finally 25 and only for a very negligible minority, it makes it quite obvious that 25 is atm the hardest way to get the loot.

And what we re arguing about here is that loot should stay the same so people can continue doing 10 so they can get their loot with less hassle.

How is 25 man the hardest way to get loot? 25 man raids have a far easier time to equip people. 25 man drops more loot, especially tokens. More people have the chance to get loot via coins -> even more people have good loot. Whereas in 10 man you often get loot that gets disenchanted, you usually don't have that problem in 25 man.

[Talen]

Well yes, a lot of the onus is on the raid leader(s), can't disagree with you there. But there is also the patience of the raiders that should be rewarded.

No. It shouldn't. There is no reasons you should be rewarded for simply standing around chatting in /2 or guildchat.

Of course, this has the drawback of making people run again to get another shot at gear, but I feel it would be less pressing than if 25s dropped better gear. If anyone can come up with an incentive for 25s that doesn't have drawbacks, I'd be impressed.

There isn't one. If you incentivise 25s for each player to the point that they want to do it, then by defintion you kill 10s.

Separate lockouts would work - but you would need to go to a different looting system to prevent abuse. Its a less severe issue than rolling twice, so maybe.....

EJL

[adnre]

More loot.
Customizable loot as in 5 items out of 6 are still random but that 6th item you choose directly from the loot table.

Because let's be honest, anything not related to loot would just not work anyway.

u should work for blizzard :P

[Talen]

How is 25 man the hardest way to get loot? 25 man raids have a far easier time to equip people. 25 man drops more loot, especially tokens. More people have the chance to get loot via coins -> even more people have good loot. Whereas in 10 man you often get loot that gets disenchanted, you usually don't have that problem in 25 man.

Because 25s spend so much more time talking about tactics and dividing up loot, they take longer to kill a boss because all that time talking adds up.
25s also tend to have a lower skill level when compare with the top 10 players so, as a group, they take longer than those 10 players would if they went alone.

As such 25s take a longer time to progress through the bosses. As a result, the top players don't gear up as quickly as they would if they split off. In effect, they gear up only as quickly as the least skilled players can progress and since it is easier to skew the skill level in your favor in 10s, 25s gear slower.

EJL

[Netherspark]

In all honesty the only thing that would really give people more incentive to do 25man over 10 is higher quality loot.

But that itself causes its own problems - having one raid setting giving better rewards than the other screws over people who don't/aren't able to do it. If they share lockouts it pisses on 10man guilds, likely forcing people to leave their guilds and join 25man guilds instead, even if they dont like 25s. If they dont share lockouts it still pisses on 10man guilds because they will feel compelled to pug 25s or be left behind in the dirt.

At the end of the day the only two options are this:
1) Give 25mans some meager extra rewards like additional loot and hope that enough people just prefer to do it.
2) Put different quality loot in different settings and suffer the same issues that WotLK had.

Unless you want to screw over alot of people it seems the only real option is just to add some minor bonuses to 25mans and hope that's enough to keep them alive.

[Shamgar]

No, the goal is to bribe people to officer a 25m guild.

There are enough people who want to join a 25m guild with equal progress, the problem is finding people who want to organize them.

And here you assume the 25 man guild has equal progress. Which it most likely won't. This is because in most situations, the raid leader could take the 10 best players and progress MORE on 10 man then they can in 25. Just as written in the blue post.