Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - Carl Sagan
False facts are highly injurious to the progress of science, for they often endure long; but false views, if supported by some evidence, do little harm, for every one takes a salutary pleasure in proving their falseness. - Charles Darwin
Give it a chance to drop pieces for a unique raidleader-transmog-set, and I think it would convince more people to organize 25m guilds.
ETA: The key is to have a reward that is really unique to 25m.
Last edited by Taiphon; 2012-11-19 at 12:03 AM.
25's usually gear up pretty quickly (more chances for MS and OS gear. Less waste) Many 10 man guilds shard a lot of gear. Imo anyway.
So the 6th piece idea isn't very favourable and it would encourage people just to make a 25 man for the sake of it.
As another poster said, Bribing 25 man's is pretty sad =(
And that's the problem. I've been an officer in a 25 man realm first raiding guild. It's not a fun thing to do. I now am a heroic 10 man raider and would never ever go back to 25s because the majority of the 25s are filled with people who just show up and I'd end up being pushed into a more active role just by my personality (which is that of analyzing, leading, etc).
In our 10 man, we have 13 people on roster. 5 of them have been officers/raidleaders in heroic-mode (or equivalent) 25 mans, and would never go back to 25 mans ever. The people in our raid who sometimes wish for 25 man raids have never had the experience of having a leadership role in a 25 man guild.
I disagree. The logistics is where the main issue lies.
That means either the rewards should go to raid leaders, tool sput in place to ease their burden, or both.
Rewards SHOULD be something special.....but should also not be soemthignt hat directly or indirectly rewards someone else. Extar gear isn't suitable, IMO, becaus then the RL can just skip so someone else gets gear he would have gotten.
What would be suitable?
Transmog Commanders Armor.
A dedicated title.
Extra VP so he can buy his own gear sooner
A chest containing various potions or flasks.
Or - how about making his life easier?
Access to a toolkit that mimcs AVR for example,
Or how about the ability to hire mercs....assuming loot issues can be dealt with (e.g. there may be chance mercs can win loot that would nomally go to the raid).
LFR proves that people above all value loot.
Since LFR is the most popular, and then 10 man and finally 25 and only for a very negligible minority, it makes it quite obvious that 25 is atm the hardest way to get the loot.
And what we re arguing about here is that loot should stay the same so people can continue doing 10 so they can get their loot with less hassle.
Thats all there is really.
Players will do 10s because 10s offer better gear1) Leave things as they are----> see more people abandoning raids and just do LFR till they drop dead and discontinue from boredom.
Leaving aside the logistics issues, 25s are viable. The problem is so many guilds have transitioned to 10s already so it'll likely be more difficult to get them back.2) Change things to make 25s viable -----> Enjoy the angry mob, no offence 10 man lovers that will start yelling "unfair!!!"
But you would have both sides arguing, unless you made 10s the default size. Which wouldn't be perfect, but which would be acceptable.3) Delete both and make one size ---->have the fanatics of both sizes yelling, although this would have been the best thing for the majority of the raiding player base.
And fixed it for so many others.They screwed raiding for so many people from the begining of cataclysm
Last edited by Talen; 2012-11-19 at 02:48 AM.
They said time and time again that they want to reward the additional difficulty of organizing a 25 man raid compared to a 10 man raid. But they haven't really done anything in that direction yet. This thread is just a suggestion what could be done. And imo just an additional piece of loot isn't the right way. But others have already given some nice ideas.
There isn't one. If you incentivise 25s for each player to the point that they want to do it, then by defintion you kill 10s.Of course, this has the drawback of making people run again to get another shot at gear, but I feel it would be less pressing than if 25s dropped better gear. If anyone can come up with an incentive for 25s that doesn't have drawbacks, I'd be impressed.
Separate lockouts would work - but you would need to go to a different looting system to prevent abuse. Its a less severe issue than rolling twice, so maybe.....
25s also tend to have a lower skill level when compare with the top 10 players so, as a group, they take longer than those 10 players would if they went alone.
As such 25s take a longer time to progress through the bosses. As a result, the top players don't gear up as quickly as they would if they split off. In effect, they gear up only as quickly as the least skilled players can progress and since it is easier to skew the skill level in your favor in 10s, 25s gear slower.
In all honesty the only thing that would really give people more incentive to do 25man over 10 is higher quality loot.
But that itself causes its own problems - having one raid setting giving better rewards than the other screws over people who don't/aren't able to do it. If they share lockouts it pisses on 10man guilds, likely forcing people to leave their guilds and join 25man guilds instead, even if they dont like 25s. If they dont share lockouts it still pisses on 10man guilds because they will feel compelled to pug 25s or be left behind in the dirt.
At the end of the day the only two options are this:
1) Give 25mans some meager extra rewards like additional loot and hope that enough people just prefer to do it.
2) Put different quality loot in different settings and suffer the same issues that WotLK had.
Unless you want to screw over alot of people it seems the only real option is just to add some minor bonuses to 25mans and hope that's enough to keep them alive.
Last edited by Firespark; 2012-11-19 at 01:19 AM.
Extra Pieces of loot is not going to help 25 mans become on equal standing with 10 mans in popularity or desire to raid, and you know why not ?
Because the same stuff drops in the same instance in 10 mans. The majority of people will take the route of least resistance.
Why should someone join a 25 man raid, when they can get the exact same loot in a 10 man guild and probably get it quicker due to less people rolling on on items, or above them in what ever priority system is employed by the guild ?
There is only one real solution to the situation besides changing format to a 15 man size. That is go back to the WOTLK style of set ups.
No its not ideal due to many guilds feeling like they are forced to go to 25 man for better gear but it worked, there was a good amount of both 10 and 25 man guilds.