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  1. #581
    Just add "Search players" button to 25man raids and u can fill rest of ur spots with randoms. 25mans are tuned for 15players and 10 bodies laying @ floor.

  2. #582
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Again, progression and heroic raiding isn't relly involved in this debate, which is talking about popularity of raid size.
    The fundamentals are still the same. I'm talking about encounters where the raid is performing at their limit, trying to kill a new boss. What's outside the scope is LFR, which you can't even call "raiding" with a straight face.

  3. #583
    25 mans are already rewarded more. They get more loot and because of higher class diversification the loot they get almost always goes to someone. In 10 mans we are constantly de'ing loot because no one needs it however there is loot that people need (it just hasn't dropped). It seems to me things are balanced now. The only reason 10's are more popular is because it's more fun and easier to get along with 9 others rather than 24 other players (totally my opinion of course).

  4. #584
    Dreadlord Dragore's Avatar
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    25 man raids already get so much more loot then 10man. I don't think that 25man needs any more incentives. If people are really going from 25 to 10 it seems like its a time for change. 10man might be the new dominate raiding size. It just sounds like people want Blizzard to force them to do something else. If you don't like the raiding atmosphere of a 10man look for a 25man guild.

  5. #585
    Banned Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isopahajuho View Post
    Just add "Search players" button to 25man raids and u can fill rest of ur spots with randoms. 25mans are tuned for 15players and 10 bodies laying @ floor.
    This is actually a good suggestion to help out the struggling 25 man guilds. As you've said, 25 is forgiving enough to pug a few players here and there - that's how it was designed.

  6. #586
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    This is actually a good suggestion to help out the struggling 25 man guilds. As you've said, 25 is forgiving enough to pug a few players here and there - that's how it was designed.
    Yeah, just stop. You obviously have no idea how real 25 man raiding works.

  7. #587
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragore View Post
    25 man raids already get so much more loot then 10man. I don't think that 25man needs any more incentives. If people are really going from 25 to 10 it seems like its a time for change. 10man might be the new dominate raiding size. It just sounds like people want Blizzard to force them to do something else. If you don't like the raiding atmosphere of a 10man look for a 25man guild.

    It's actually less loot per person than in 10 man. You get 2 tokens in 25man, that's 1 token for each 12.5man vs 1 token per 10man, also you get 3 pieces of loot, which is 1 piece per ~8.3 raiders, vs 2 pieces of loot in 10 man (1 piece per 5 man).

    Not even talking anout BS with legendary gem, you get 1 quest item from Sha per 25 man raid and same 1 quest item on 10 man.

  8. #588
    Banned Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    You obviously have no idea how real 25 man raiding works.
    Going to quote the people who designed 10m and 25m once again:

    In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.

  9. #589
    The Unstoppable Force Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stances View Post
    Gold charms for clearing a raid in 25 man?
    That I think is an excellent idea. Should suggest it over in the official forums.

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Going to quote the people who designed 10m and 25m once again:
    You can keep quoting fallacies all you want, it won't make them true.

  11. #591
    Scarab Lord Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Yeah, just stop. You obviously have no idea how real 25 man raiding works.
    If by "real" 25 man raiding you mean progression and HC modes, you are wrong.
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

    Guild Blog for <Debonair> EU, Zenedar.

  12. #592
    The Unstoppable Force Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larrius View Post
    Not even talking anout BS with legendary gem, you get 1 quest item from Sha per 25 man raid and same 1 quest item on 10 man.
    That's suspected to be a bug.

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    If by "real" 25 man raiding you mean progression and HC modes, you are wrong.
    So you're saying in progression raiding and HC modes it's fine to pug people and have people fuck up? Okay, that's fine. It's not what happens in reality, but you're free to hold onto any delusions you wish.

  14. #594
    Banned Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    blah blah
    So show me where any WoW dev has ever stated that 25s are harder to execute than 10s?

    You can't, because that just isn't true. It might be harder to find more people, but 25s are much, much easier to execute than 10s. That is how they were designed.

  15. #595
    Isn't the incentive for 25 man the more epic and more prestigious raid size?

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    So show me where any WoW dev has ever stated that 25s are harder to execute than 10s?
    What? You do realize WoW devs stating something doesn't make it true, right?

    You can't, because that just isn't true. It might be harder to find more people, but 25s are much, much easier to execute than 10s. That is how they were designed.
    Perhaps you should try doing some proper 25 man raiding, you'll be surprised.

  17. #597
    Banned Espe's Avatar
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    double post
    Last edited by Espe; 2012-11-20 at 04:01 PM.

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Been, there, done that. Needed more of a challenge. Moved on to 10hm.
    That's cute. It's painfully obvious you haven't.

  19. #599
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher069 View Post
    Isn't the incentive for 25 man the more epic and more prestigious raid size?
    More epic? I guess it might seem that way with a few more bodies in the instance.

    More prestigious? I don't think even most 25m raiders believe that. They just want their shinies in the easiest mode possible and they have enough people around to fill them out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Perhaps you should try doing some proper 25 man raiding, you'll be surprised.
    Been there, done that. Needed more of a challenge. Moved on to 10hm.

    Perhaps you should try some proper raiding instead of coasting through the easiest mode?

  20. #600
    Quote Originally Posted by wilbbailey View Post
    Shard lockouts killed 25s its a simple as that.
    No, equal loot did that. Shared lockouts happened in ICC, and made not a dent in the numbers. Equal loot was Blizzard saying:
    "This hard thing is just as rewarding as this easy thing."


    Every 25 has a better 10s inside it. We held out as long as we could, but at some point it was convert to two 10s and get way more progression that way. Simply no choice about it, very basic economics.


    If you have a job, think about it this way. Pretend that instead of going to work and doing whatever it is that you do, that you and two of your friends could make the same amount, for the same amount of work, with LESS risk. You'd probably do that- you'd be a fool not to. This is very close to that.


    But for Blizzard to change it now would devastate their raiding community. Only an announcement like "cross server guilds" (aka, realm mergers in all but name) delivered simultaneously could possibly abate a portion of the rage, and I'm betting at least 10% of raiders would honestly and legitimately quit, having viewed their WoW as having been shut down.


    Blizzard should take this lesson, which was available for them back in ICC when we told them this exact thing would happen, and remember it when designing future MMOs.

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