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  1. #801
    HERE IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE:

    Scrap 10 man raiding. Scrap 25 man raiding. (25 man raiding is now running into the same problems 40 man raiding did.. thus getting scrapped.) 25 man raiding is a pain in the ass for raid leaders and with wow bleeding subs and 10 man being easier in the minds of most its just not what it used to be nor will it ever be again.

    SOLUTION:

    CHANGE ALL RAIDS TO A SINGLE 15 MAN LOCKOUT. Scale the fights appropriately. Add an extra item of loot to the table. 3 items drop. 4 on end bosses of each raid instance.

    Its a win win situation.

    Slightly increases raid leader responsibility of 10 man guilds.
    Fixes the problem where 10 man guilds have 15-20 people who want to raid but the remainder get shafted and have to look elsewhere or have to make multiple 10 man teams that compete and cause guild drama because of what team players end up on.
    Greatly reduced raiding responsibility for 25 man guilds. Have to recruit and find less people. Still get a decent amount of loot. Not quite as easy at 10 mans but not as unforgiving as 25.

    25 man raids should only exist at this point as an LFR option to get as many people there as possible.

    This would also open up the window for more time for blizzard to work on more content. Now they would only be tuning each instance to 3 difficulties (LFR and 15 man normal/heroic raids) as opposed to 5.

    Problem solved.
    Last edited by Grishnok; 2012-11-21 at 09:02 AM.

  2. #802
    I guess this is where we differ in opinion, i am totally of the mindset that, it is not unfair because 10 mans are not being deprived of anything, the option to grow a 25man component (even if you can't get everyone online for every set raid day) should be a goal, instead of sitting comfortably doing 10's while the players who have exerted that extra effort and time are stuck being rewarded the same simply because its somehow considered immoral that 25mans have a separate tier balanced around their separate raid size.

    I don't know about 15 mans either, they already pissed off a lot of ppl when they practically cut guilds in half with the change to 25 man, this could be a stake in the heart sort of change. some ppl simply like doing larger raids, i know i will always miss 40s even if they usually were just clusterfks. the TS excitement was hilarity at its finest. so many ppl so much lols.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2012-11-21 at 09:08 AM.

  3. #803
    I say, if you don't find 25 man fun enough to do it without needing an extra reward, just don't do it. It's very obvious that people think the extra fun doesn't outweigh the extra effort you need to put into it, so they demand extra 'payment' to do it anyway. I just think they should stop doing it and let 25 man die. It's obviously not fun.
    Arguing with a troll is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what you do or say, he will just knock over the pieces, take a shit on the board and strut around like he won the whole damn thing.

  4. #804
    Quote Originally Posted by Grishnok View Post
    HERE IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE:
    Yes, that's what needs to be done if you want to kill off the last 25 man guilds and a large number of small 10 man guilds.

    Its a win win situation.
    For whom? A few 10 man guilds that have overrecruited win, everyone else loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    I guess this is where we differ in opinion, i am totally of the mindset that, it is not unfair because 10 mans are not being deprived of anything, the option to grow a 25man component (even if you can't get everyone online for every set raid day) should be a goal, instead of sitting comfortably doing 10's while the players who have exerted that extra effort and time are stuck being rewarded the same simply because its somehow considered immoral that 25mans have a separate tier balanced around their separate raid size.

    I don't know about 15 mans either, they already pissed off a lot of ppl when they practically cut guilds in half with the change to 25 man, this could be a stake in the heart sort of change. some ppl simply like doing larger raids, i know i will always miss 40s even if they usually were just clusterfks. the TS excitement was hilarity at its finest. so many ppl so much lols.
    Agree with everything you say.

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by Grishnok View Post
    Problem solved.
    Nice that you can post as if it's the ultimate truth, but of course it's not. I don't like more then 10man raids and will stop raiding if I suddenly have to go 15man. We also only have 11 people on our roster, forcing me to recruit again, which I don't want. If 25man raids have/are a problem, why would you make 10man raids suffer in order to solve that? It's ridiculous. Just do 25man if you like it or don't if you don't and leave 10man out of it.
    Arguing with a troll is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what you do or say, he will just knock over the pieces, take a shit on the board and strut around like he won the whole damn thing.

  6. #806
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    I long for the good old days when people ran MC or BWL with 39 others. The 'logistics' back then were way worse than any 10 or 25 man guild this day can imagine, but everyone pulled their own weight and we survived

    Spoiled, spoiled brats

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by maladicta View Post
    Why do people keep regurgitating this demand for 15 man raids? They're still too small for people that prefer the epic feeling of 25s, all they would do is cause problems for those 10 man guilds that are already having attendance or recruitment problems. Nobody wins. 15 man raids are the worst possible solution they could come up with.
    Oki lets see...

    1) Because they got fed up with all this mess.
    It will never stop no matter what decision blizzard take now for 25s. If they do nothing, this will continue with 25s complaining and 10s being irrational in their effords to find an argument for the current situation. If we roll back to a "wrath like" system, the same will happen, only now with switched roles.
    2) Because they have a strong sence of realism.
    They know that even if they prefer doing 25s it is there currently as a choice only for the elite of wow raiders, not for the majority of the player base. And if they are 10 man raiders they also know that a change will prevent them to get the rewards and the prestige that end game offers.
    3) Because they find the one too small and the other too big.
    This is particularly true with the new cluster feck and pointless spell effects from players and mobs alike for 25s, and in encounters that have to be severely chopped to be compatible with 10 man (majordomo, beth, stone guard etc).
    4) Because they want a level playing field, where the discussion on who is the best is actually centered in the efficiency of the team and not the size the kill has happened.
    5) Because they want raid environment designed around a size, just in case they get their Karazhan feeling back or their SCC/BT feeling back.
    6) Because they want a stable environment to plan and manage their guilds recruitment and needs rather than having to worry every patch that they will have to upsize or downsize, according to what is efficient.
    7) Because they want more content instead of more balancing.

    Some are quite fed up with quarrels and endless debates about...
    -Should we incentivise 25?
    -Is the system or the players to be blamed for the death of 25s?
    -Do we have one or two world/realm first races?
    -Does 25 carry bads (and get away with it)?
    -Is 10 man easier overall?(and then define overall)

    All those things will never end, as i already mentioned, and many prefer 15 man simply not to have to do with all those things ever again...
    Last edited by Archidamos; 2012-11-21 at 10:01 AM.

  8. #808
    This thread makes it evident that 25 man supporters are just raiding at the top level and have no understanding or interest in how overwhelming majority of raiding works.
    Separate achivements, Separate realm firsts? lolz as if that would encourage people to form 25 man guilds. All it does it makes the epeen a little shiner on the guild that is dominating the server.
    The reason 10 man works so well is that you actually can play wow as a game and not as a second job. a great many people must agree set aside time to make 25 work. Raidtimes becomes inflexible and cancelled raids and delays negatively affect more people.
    A 10 man is built around a close group of 5-6 people, often they know eachother in real life, finding 4-5 other people for a raid is not always easy but doable without living in the wow game. That group of players can chose to raid any day of the week, at any time and they are actually able to.
    This freedom is greatest thing about wow raiding right now.
    You guys might not believe it but the overwhelming majority of people aren't able or willing to set a side 3-4 nights a week for raiding every week, even though they enjoy raiding and can very well be good at it and this is the only way the 25 man monster can work.
    But even with a 15 man raiding size this flexibility would dissappear. You would never find 10 players in trade at midnight matching the friend groups requirements. And their choices going by the old model, those friends group can't play together anymore since all the can chose from is individually conforming to the agenda of different 25 guilds or not raid at all.

  9. #809
    Moderator Zinnin's Avatar
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    I actually wouldn't mind getting flasks \ food to make it so time spent outside of raid can be managing the guild over managing guild resources. I like the idea of being able to pick one item from the loot table as well, having a vendor that has every piece of raid loot and you just get a token.

  10. #810
    Stop dropping the same loot for starters would go a long way to promoting 25 man raids. That alone would start making 10 man raids less attractive. Having separate balance to go with it since it'll never be fair or even in difficulty is another start. I guess I preferred how everything was initially until they started listening to feedback because people "burned" themselves out. When raids didn't share lockouts you could raid with friends outside of your main raid and get halfway decent items for everyone without having to lfr. The current state of lfr is pretty shit also since it's basically a gold run. If Blizzard isn't willing to make 10m less attractive then I don't see anything changing. Players will predominantly choose less risk with high reward situations.

  11. #811
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    sorry espe, but your crusade on the empowerment of 10mans being superior won't work, fundamentally 10s do indeed make each person work slightly harder, but there is more damage being dealt in a 25man, so there is a greater chance of getting one shot by something or getting unluckily hit by multiple sources of aoe damage, yes they have more chances to CR, but they need it to make up for the increase in chance that someone will fail or be unlucky.

    it costs half as much to wipe a 10 man, 25 man is usually more complex to make up for the extra players running around, in 10 man if there is 1 add with the boss in 25 man there is usually 2 or 3 adds with the boss..

    25 man scales upward it is actually the harder size raid when you couple length of fights, chance to get one shotted by something and the ability to keep forming 25mans and not move down to 10s, i would say 10s are the cake walk because they are easy to form, on that principle alone are they the easier raid because its more accessible to everyone not just guilds but pugs too. you can slack a bit in 25s if your raid has a boss on farm, but if your learning the fight it can take longer to execute a perfect strategy with more players, it takes longer for everyone to grasp the execution. it really comes down to the boss fight aswell, if there was a 10 man mount hyjal, archimonde would still be harder on 25man, because of the mechanics of the fight. having more ppl usually means that there is more chance someone will get killed which could then lead to a wipe.
    Actually, the objective difficulty of 10 man vs 25 is the result of design choices and tuning. It's that simple.

    In principle Blizzard aim to try and make the two formats equally difficult in terms of skill, gear requirements, time spent practising the fight etc. It is very easy to make a 10 man encounter significantly harder than the 25 man version by simply tuning it that way, and vice versa. Getting the balance perfect isn't that easy though, so for any encounter either 10 man or 25 man will be marginally harder. On average, the only reason why either raid format should be consistently harder is if the devs are messing up the tuning badly.

    Anyone trying to argue that 25 man is inherently harder because of xyz, or that 10 man is inherently harder because of abc is talking garbage.

    25 man raiding was never harder because of the fact that it is 25 people. It was harder because Blizzard elected to make it so. Unfortunately this has resulted in a situation today where some people believe that if they raid 25 man, they should be entitled to better rewards. Which is just silly if you ask me.

    Players should be rewarded according to the difficulty of the content. The choice of whether to go 10 man or 25 man should be entirely about which format, for you, is more fun, not about choosing what you think is the most "elite" or prestigious or hardcore or exclusive.

    That being said, and has been acknowledged by Blizzard, and really should be an absolute no brainer, is the fact that 25 man raiding is logistically more complicated to organise and run. Which is, understandably a reason why people don't like the format.

    Fundamentally, for the choice to be "fair" 25 man raiding would need to be logistically an equal amount of effort to 10 man. I am not sure that is possible, and furthermore it isn't anyone's fault. It is just one of those things. And the idea of punishing 10 man raiders to try and make up for this unfairness is not fair either.

    In the end I personally just shrug my shoulders. If people really wanted to raid 25 man content, it would happen. I can only surmise that the actual number of people who truly want to raid 25 man are pretty small, because those are the people who would handle the logistics. I think most of the alleged 25 man fans are actually people who believe they are superior raiders and want to be given a format in which they feel they can stand out.

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    Oki lets see...

    ...

    All those things will never end, as i already mentioned, and many prefer 15 man simply not to have to do with all those things ever again...
    Thank you, first time I've actually seen any arguments for it I see a lot of your points, though I don't agree with some of them but that's a matter of opinion. What I do believe though is that switching to 15 mans would destroy a lot of both 10 and 25 man guilds, so I don't think it's a reasonable solution, especially since 15 mans are so similar to 10s that to me it would just seem like causing a lot of harm for little good.

    I passionately want 25 mans to revive, but not at the cost of those that prefer 10s - but I don't think it's possible. It's too late, the damage is already done and trying to fix it would just ruin things for a lot of other people.

  13. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Players will predominantly choose less hassle with equal reward situations.
    There, fixed that last statement for you. 25 man raiding is more hassle. It's annoying, it's frustrating, and this adds nothing positive to the experience. It's pretty clear given the number of people who abandoned 25 man raiding at the first opportunity that most people don't like the hassle that is inherent in 25 man raiding, and see no inherent value in the fact that 25 people participate instead of 10.

    So if this is the case, why bother fighting so hard to encourage this format if people don't like it? The answer is simple: Because the small number of genuine 25 man fans who remain, and are prepared to put in the extra logistical effort to run a 25 man raid, simply can't accept that most people do not share that opinion. As a result they can't do a raid because they can't find enough people to participate. They then fail to see the irony in forcing people who would rather be raiding 10 man into raiding a format they don't like by offering rewards that cannot be refused.

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by Arawn View Post
    But even with a 15 man raiding size this flexibility would dissappear. You would never find 10 players in trade at midnight matching the friend groups requirements. And their choices going by the old model, those friends group can't play together anymore since all the can chose from is individually conforming to the agenda of different 25 guilds or not raid at all.
    I think you missunderstood the 15 ppl part.
    It is not suggested to add 15 ppl raids next to the 25, or next to the 10 AND 25, but delete both 10 and 25 and have only 15 ppl raids.
    Also i think you are missunderstanding the difference between dungeon and raid.
    Dungeon was introduced to do stuff with your friends and have fun doing them
    And dungeons worked great towards that purpose till TBC.
    After that Dungeon got transformed into a faceless grind, and 10 man raids stepped in (while they shouldnt) to fill in that role.

    Raiding should be something more serious and more demanding in terms of resources. I doubt that 15 ppl is big enough to fullfill that role, but it is very popular amongst players, and also it is definately serious enough size because as you said, the core of a guild is usually those 5-6 people that are close friends either IRL or from playing together for years.
    Still in the 15 people the ones that are not in that close group are the majority, and you need to put some efford to make it work, not just get another 3-4 people and "lets raid".

    My opinion is that they should make raiding different than dungeon project from vanilla tbc.
    Upgrade dungeons to make em compelling enough to be performed by friends out of RDF (better reward for the non RDF version compined with higher challenge)
    And have raids at a size that it is not becoming a second job for the officers, but neither a "0 investment experiment", as the majority of 10 man guilds is today, and you can see it from their mortality rate combined with their "creation rate".

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    There, fixed that last statement for you. 25 man raiding is more hassle. It's annoying, it's frustrating, and this adds nothing positive to the experience. It's pretty clear given the number of people who abandoned 25 man raiding at the first opportunity that most people don't like the hassle that is inherent in 25 man raiding, and see no inherent value in the fact that 25 people participate instead of 10.

    So if this is the case, why bother fighting so hard to encourage this format if people don't like it? The answer is simple: Because the small number of genuine 25 man fans who remain, and are prepared to put in the extra logistical effort to run a 25 man raid, simply can't accept that most people do not share that opinion. As a result they can't do a raid because they can't find enough people to participate. They then fail to see the irony in forcing people who would rather be raiding 10 man into raiding a format they don't like by offering rewards that cannot be refused.
    No I don't share your opinion but I do respect it. The whole everything is easier and rewards the same though is the true irony here. If you have to work harder wouldn't you expect better reward for it?
    Last edited by Barnabas; 2012-11-21 at 10:26 AM.

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    There, fixed that last statement for you. 25 man raiding is more hassle. It's annoying, it's frustrating, and this adds nothing positive to the experience. It's pretty clear given the number of people who abandoned 25 man raiding at the first opportunity that most people don't like the hassle that is inherent in 25 man raiding, and see no inherent value in the fact that 25 people participate instead of 10.

    So if this is the case, why bother fighting so hard to encourage this format if people don't like it? The answer is simple: Because the small number of genuine 25 man fans who remain, and are prepared to put in the extra logistical effort to run a 25 man raid, simply can't accept that most people do not share that opinion. As a result they can't do a raid because they can't find enough people to participate. They then fail to see the irony in forcing people who would rather be raiding 10 man into raiding a format they don't like by offering rewards that cannot be refused.
    Give them 1-man raid, they will leave 10-man because it's easier to managed. In addition you can make an offline mode !
    First M in MMORPG means something. If you don't like depending on others, play diablo.

  17. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by Grishnok View Post
    HERE IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE:

    Scrap 10 man raiding. Scrap 25 man raiding. (25 man raiding is now running into the same problems 40 man raiding did.. thus getting scrapped.) 25 man raiding is a pain in the ass for raid leaders and with wow bleeding subs and 10 man being easier in the minds of most its just not what it used to be nor will it ever be again.

    SOLUTION:

    CHANGE ALL RAIDS TO A SINGLE 15 MAN LOCKOUT. Scale the fights appropriately. Add an extra item of loot to the table. 3 items drop. 4 on end bosses of each raid instance.

    Its a win win situation.

    Slightly increases raid leader responsibility of 10 man guilds.
    Fixes the problem where 10 man guilds have 15-20 people who want to raid but the remainder get shafted and have to look elsewhere or have to make multiple 10 man teams that compete and cause guild drama because of what team players end up on.
    Greatly reduced raiding responsibility for 25 man guilds. Have to recruit and find less people. Still get a decent amount of loot. Not quite as easy at 10 mans but not as unforgiving as 25.

    25 man raids should only exist at this point as an LFR option to get as many people there as possible.

    This would also open up the window for more time for blizzard to work on more content. Now they would only be tuning each instance to 3 difficulties (LFR and 15 man normal/heroic raids) as opposed to 5.

    Problem solved.
    Blizzard have said they will never do 15s.
    And Ghostcrawler himself said that he only plays 25s, so 25s will be supported in some way because of that.
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 587 Enh/573 Ele 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 14/14 HM SoO
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  18. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    There, fixed that last statement for you. 25 man raiding is more hassle. It's annoying, it's frustrating, and this adds nothing positive to the experience. It's pretty clear given the number of people who abandoned 25 man raiding at the first opportunity that most people don't like the hassle that is inherent in 25 man raiding, and see no inherent value in the fact that 25 people participate instead of 10.

    So if this is the case, why bother fighting so hard to encourage this format if people don't like it? The answer is simple: Because the small number of genuine 25 man fans who remain, and are prepared to put in the extra logistical effort to run a 25 man raid, simply can't accept that most people do not share that opinion. As a result they can't do a raid because they can't find enough people to participate. They then fail to see the irony in forcing people who would rather be raiding 10 man into raiding a format they don't like by offering rewards that cannot be refused.
    So why prop it with some bull crap reward? If you don't like it, don't do it!

    Most of the 25 crowds are just trying to perpetuate some superiority over the lfr/10 raiding crowd. I enjoyed 25's due to more people being present. Never felt like I needed a carrot to do it.

    Dumb suggestion regarding the better gear for 25's. Why? The difficulty's are very close. The higher gear was to cope with the higher heals/health/dps that used to be needed for 25's.

    Entitlement+whine=this thread's beginning

  19. #819
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    No I don't share your opinion but I do respect it. The whole everything is easier and rewards the same though is the true irony here. If you have to work harder wouldn't you expect better reward for it?
    Not really, because it's all non game related.

    If you have to travel further to work than the guy in the next cubicle, you won't get paid more.

    If you are in a bigger group than the team down the hall but are doing the same job you won't get paid more. The managers might, but the staff won't.
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  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Not really, because it's all non game related.

    If you have to travel further to work than the guy in the next cubicle, you won't get paid more.

    If you are in a bigger group than the team down the hall but are doing the same job you won't get paid more. The managers might, but the staff won't.
    Isn't this a game, not a job?
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