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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
    And yet that change led to a even greater problem - 25m is as good as vanished. It was a mistake and cannot be fixed. Fixing the old issue in a different way than shared lockouts is far easier I think.
    so fix this problem by adding problems we already had before?
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Aviney View Post
    As said before and as will be said many more times: If you need to make 25 man raids more appealing, let them die. If you like doing 25s, go do 25s or find a guild that does. No one says you have to raid 10 mans.
    Then should they have let 10m guilds die in Wrath when 25m was more popular (from what I have experienced) because of the ilevel difference?
    Quote Originally Posted by shocktopuslol View Post
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  3. #83
    25 man raiding is already incentivised by more loot per person, not to mention having a larger total amount of people, and likely broader class variety, makes it easier and more efficient to gear up in.

    The only way to incentivise lazy people, like myself, to do 25 mans, would be to make the gear better, or increase the already non-trivial difference between the two in terms of amount of said gear. If the amount was increased, I would be annoyed (I'd rather stop raiding than switch to 25m) but I would continue to raid. If the item level for 25m raiding was increased, it would make 10m completely not worth doing for someone with a mindset like myself. You may not like it, but that is the reality of the situation. Blizz can not risk the subscribers they will lose by giving 25m better loot.

    I'd like to see some more realistic suggestions . Stuntz is on the right train of thought with 25m dropping pre-upgraded gear, but that is too severe of a difference. I do think that valor from raiding needs to be tweaked - 25m could give double valor per boss and I wouldn't be particularly upset - I would have to work a little bit harder to get my valor in a 10m raid group, but its not something I would *lose* by not doing 25m.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
    And yet that change led to a even greater problem - 25m is as good as vanished. It was a mistake and cannot be fixed. Fixing the old issue in a different way than shared lockouts is far easier I think.
    No. Its a greater problem in YOUR opinion. It doesn't appear as if Blizzard shares that opinion.

    No, the current system addressed the isues Blizzard had with the old model. They were issues affecting game design, game balance, they affected players and guilds. It is good that they are gone and given the choice, I for one, prefer the current system.

    That doesn't mean that what has happened to 25s is right; it isn't. 25s have a lot to offer the game and the game itself benefits from having that option available and in use. But solving that issue by bringing back the issues of old is not a solution. That would simply switch 10s for 25s so we would have the exact same issue AS WELL AS the other issues addressed by the current model.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2012-11-19 at 04:26 AM.

  5. #85
    Gently reminding folks to keep it civil.

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  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    1) You have to FIND 25 people to raid 25 vs 10. How many pugs excactly raid 25s in your server?
    2) You have to find 2,5 times more people to maintain a 25 due to the natural afks departures etc etc.
    3) You have to spent more time to form a group of 25 people vs 10. Even if you have them all showing up, you need 2,5 time larger bench than 10 and that means more time to decide who stays out and then deal with their dissapointement for staying out.
    4) You have to get em inside the raid. Especially now that "have group will travel" is gone.
    5) You need more time to go through tactics and assign roles.
    6) You need to go through the tactics every time almost since it is highly unlikely to have the excact same people that you raided with the previous time and the new ones have to know how the rest work on this.
    7) You need more time to distribute the loot. 6 items for 25 people as possible recipient while in 10 man its more like "oh agility leather give it to the rogue".
    8) You need more time to recover after wipes
    9) You need more waiting time from people to come back from unexpected afk/random DC
    10) You need more time to actually kill the boss in combat since most of the fights last longer in 25 vs 10.
    I can see points of 1,2,3,5,9 and 10. 2nd and 3rd are the same point imo. 5th point is only more time because you do have more people but shouldn't be too hard to do if people are prepared. 10th point, I didn't know that 25 and 10 mans have different enrage timers. That should be changed so it's the same amount of time, increase health/timer, decrease health/timer of mechanics.

    4th point, you should have have 2.5 times more people making their way to the summon stone. You should also have 2.5 times more people clicking the stone. Don't blame 10m because people are lazy. 10m people are lazy themselves. 6th point, if people aren't prepared, why are they invited. If I have someone new I run over the fight very basically and quickly, maybe tell something we do uniquely different like leaving the raid boss where he is instead of pulling him to the left. 8th point, I don't see why people should take longer. The only reason is they go for their "unexpected dc/afk" which would be 9th point then. 25m raid and 10m people eat at the same rate, buffs are easy to coordinate since they homogenized them.

    (Some points I've seen from the rest of the thread)
    The thing that I am seeing from this is that officers do not delegate or trust the people they put in charge. This would cut your time down by quite a bit. Yes I understand that it does take a bit more time and effort but that is what happens when you do something bigger. It is much easier to organize a get together at my house for 4 friends than it is for 10.

    I have a friend who does and will not do 10m because it is too small and isn't fun to her. (Point about Vent not being lively in 10m is bogus if you were in our raid. I personally find a 25m Vent to be crowded. I don't speak because there isn't a time to speak.) Loot is better in 25m since yes you may have competition but as someone said, the loot will most likely be used. When we get our 5th plate holy piece in a row, that is 4 shards in a row that we would like the str trinket instead or the leather belt. If there is 15 pieces of loot from a boss, 25m get 5 random pieces from it; 10m get 2 random pieces out of 15.

    Also if you give a different mount or extra mount or extra achievements in 25m, you would be forcing those who want all of those to do 25m. It was the only reason I did ICC25 even though I detest being in a 25m raid. There should be something to encourage people to do 25m who want to do 25m but I do not know what that can be except the point of keeping enrage timers the same (modify the encounter so that it's not harder). That would lower times on failed attempts and completing the encounters in the same time. And what someone else said, more valor would not hurt since you are investing more time into it.

  7. #87
    I just thought of my own original idea, rather than tweaking someone elses.

    25 man bosses drop 50 EXTRA valor per boss (on top of the 25 already)

    This extra valor does not count towards your weekly cap. 25 mans can upgrade the gear faster.

  8. #88
    They can do whatever they please to encourage 25 mans, but if they make it drop better loot my (and I'm sure many other) 10 man guilds will quit. Give them more loot, valor, faster legendarys, whatever. But the second it drops higher ilvl I'm done.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    How is there anymore logistical effort for 25man raiding. 25 people have to show up but its still the same as having a 10man show up. It's the same thing just with more people. Isn't that a price you have to pay to raid at that size? Why should you be rewarded for doing the same thing?
    It's simple, there's more people to manage. More cd's to manage. More assignments to be given. Take elegon for example. 1 person per orb in 10 man. 3 people per orb in 25 man. And, it can't be just any random 3, you have to get roughly the same dps on each orb. Not incredibly difficult, but it is something that has to be accounted for and adjusted if necessary. 10m orbs are tuned to be able kill the needed amount by any dps solo. 25m cannot kill the needed amount with just any 3 dps. It takes extra time and planning to do this.

    Take spiritbinder. On 10m, 3 people go into the shadow realm. On 25, 5 people go in. Aside from it naturally being more difficult since there are 2 extra people to heal in the spirit realm, but also, there are more totems in 25, so groups must go down more often. Not incredibly difficult to manage, but coordinating who will go down when and from which totem is a full time job. Will of the emperor. You get 2x as many adds. 4 rages, 2 strengths, and 2 courages. Which means dps has to be split accordingly. I.E. more logistical challenges.

    Damage is higher in 25m. This is to account for the increase in healers and cd's. However, this also means that healing assignments are necessary, since the tanks take more damage, and the raid takes more damage. There is a higher chance of someone getting gibbed if there isn't someone designated to heal one target over another. 10m, for the most part, you can just wing it, and everyone heals everyone, which is necessary due to the lower amount of healers. But, it is logistically more challenging in 25. You have to coordinate who's healing which tanks, where the beacons are going, where the earthshields are going, where lifeblooms are going. Also, in situations where raid cd's are needed, where 1 will suffice in 10m, often times 2-3 are needed in 25. More coordination and planning is needed. Logistics.

    Basically, everything you have to do in a 10m, has to be done 2.5-3 times in a 25m. Be it recruiting, raid leading, loot systems (you actually need these in 25, 10's can easily /roll,) going over apps, vent interviews, dealing with guild issues, etc. And generally, all these things are dealt with by 2-4 people. That's why 25 man raiding numbers are dwindling. There is not a lack of people who would like to do them, but there is a lack of people willing (and capable) of putting in the extra time and effort to run them.
    Last edited by cococabana; 2012-11-19 at 05:25 AM.

  10. #90
    And 25s are just *slower*. Let's pretend that each person has a random 1% chance of a DC in a boss fight. In a 10-man, you've got a 90.4% chance that everyone stays connected, in a 25-man you've got a 77.8% chance that everyone stays connected. If it's one of the many fights where someone DCing at the wrong time is a problem, well, you're going to have more than twice as many wipes to DCs in a 25-man. Or, say each person has a 1% chance of having something in real life distract them for five minutes between pulls. In a 10-man, you've got a 90.4% chance of getting to start your next pull immediately, while in a 25-man you've got a 22.2% chance that you'll all be stuck sitting there waiting while someone puts out the burning cat. Or say each person has a 1% chance of botching a major mechanic... You get the idea. The point is, at "equal" difficulty, the difficulty is not equal. You're just much more likely to have something go wrong, with execution, with connection, with real life distractions, with *something*, in a 25-man. When you're blowing through overgeared or farm content, it doesn't matter much, because there's a lot of room for slop. But when you're pushing progression, a dead or DCed or distracted raider or a blown mechanic is going to kill your chances just as hard in a 25-man as it is in a 10-man, and it's going to happen a lot more often.

  11. #91
    Blizzard would need to separate 10 man from 25 man to be able to pull off anything to the degree of breathing fresh air back into 25 man. To be honest, the raiding community is now moving towards 10 and 25 progression races being separated. There are still a few ignorant people who see everything as equal but they aren't. 10 mans have X amount of bosses which are more difficult and 25 has X amount which are more difficult. Each hindering progression of one or the other more from tier to tier. Yes, the top players in the world still raid 25 man. If you remove them and grab 25 players of equal skill and 10 for another group, the progression will Yo-Yo each tier since the 10/25 will never be tuned properly to be equal.

    To those who say you were forced to run 25 man in WotLK. I would agree since 10 man had never been seen as "true raiding". Now that you have a giant plateau to work off of, you (10 mans) may lose some steam but you will always remain strong due to one thing. Casual friendly.
    Modern Guild
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  12. #92
    The people that log in on raid night, get their assignments, then tunnel vision recount so they can jerk it to their MAD DEEPS, or healing their assigned targets, or tanking their assigned, and then are never seen again until next week's repeat run, aren't really being burdened with "increased logistical efforts", so this whole argument is bunk.

    The only people with increased "logistical" concerns are the raid leaders/officers that put together the raids. But how do you realistically reward only those small handful of people?

  13. #93
    I think the main problem with 25 man raids has already been mentioned. If you are in a 25 man raiding guild, you could almost always take 10 of the better players and progress further than you could have on 25. As a 25 man raider, I'll say that simply having more loot drop from bosses is a poor consolation prize to actually having more bosses killed.

    That said, I think a pretty good solution was mentioned. If pieces in 25 were to drop already upgraded, I think everyone would be happy with that. It is something meaningful to 25s without putting 10s behind in the long-term. High end raiding guilds might complain about being forced to run 25s the first week content was released for min/maxing purposes (but that could also be said about the current situation as well).

  14. #94
    My guild does 25s because we enjoy them. However most people are motivated by gear, and I think that 25s should award slightly better item level loot. Personally, I loved the ICC way of doing things, with unshared lockouts for 10s and 25s. It allowed me to do 25s with my guild, and then pug 10s to "fill in the gaps" so to speak.

  15. #95
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    The best way to make 25s more appealing is to not have them share a lockout with 10s. Many more people did 25s before the shared lockout, including myself.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by jetersky View Post
    Personally, I loved the ICC way of doing things, with unshared lockouts for 10s and 25s. It allowed me to do 25s with my guild, and then pug 10s to "fill in the gaps" so to speak.
    They don't want that though because dedicated players get further ahead while the casuals fall farther behind. They don't want to hurt the casuals or make them do more in any way. Same with rep, it does put people who spends months on them ahead a few pieces, but not like doing a whole nother raid every week.

  17. #97
    I think all the really need to do is make 25man drop like 2 more peices of gear per boss. That should be more than enough incentive.

  18. #98
    I'd much prefer the incentive be more of a vanity reward than gear related. Maybe if they consistently had the last boss drop a mount on heroic, they could have 1 mount drop from 10 man, then the same mount could drop on 25 in addition to a special recolored 25 man only version.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    I think all the really need to do is make 25man drop like 2 more peices of gear per boss. That should be more than enough incentive.
    You're right, that would be MORE than enough incentive, all serious guilds would be forced to run 25m during progression, and 10m would die.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    You're right, that would be MORE than enough incentive, all serious guilds would be forced to run 25m during progression, and 10m would die.
    I'm not really nitpicking your statement but you can flip this and see what every backwater small time 25 man guild is facing right now.

    Also, 10 mans will never die. They are casual friendly and the easiest to organize with people you don't know, hence why you don't see 25 man PUGs today.
    Modern Guild
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