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  1. #1041
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    Now I haven't raided 25-mans since TBC, but wouldn't Elegon / Stone Guards / Imperial Vizier all be easier on 25-man? In 10-man, Elegon is a nightmare because your DPS absolutely have to be up to snuff, and nobody can slack on killing their sparks. On 25-man, you have 3 people per spark, so even if one isn't pulling such good burst numbers the other two can save him. Stone Guards you have more tanking options and more DPS to run the tiles. Vizier you can stack Disc priests and have a ton of more healing cooldowns to get through Force and Verve (which I guess is irrelevant now since it's been nerfed to hell)
    Dogs depend on which three are up. (lol) You get easy weeks and you get tougher weeks depending on combination.
    In 25man Elegon is a nightmare too. It's quite tightly tuned if you go in in ID 1-2.
    Vizier is that the boss with the latency check? Those little yellow orbs that spin around? Sorry can't distinguish the bugs by names^^.
    Don't know that one didn't give us much trouble, why would it be harder in 10m? You have less people failing to move.

    To us only three bosses stand out this tier:
    Elegon (He gets fairly easy with gear though)
    Will of the Emperor
    Garalon

    I'm talking about normals though, no clue how mean 10man HCs are. In T11 they were far meaner than their 25man counterparts.

    If a 10-man raid even has 1 player who isn't up to par in their raid it can drastically impact their progression
    If you go into 25man early in the expansion you can't have a gimpy tank/healer in 25man as well. Outgearing content fixes a lot of issues though and might be easier to do in 25man due to less mean RNG.

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  2. #1042
    its takes longer to co-ordinate a 25 man around usually the same space

    it take longer to get back into the next try after a wipe

    there is more drama

    there is a bigger chance of no shows due simply to the fact that you have to rely on more ppl to actually show up.

    10man can sit in its casual bubble and blissfully deny any of the extra shit that a 25man has to go through. but it does exist. read that actual blue post if you haven't.

  3. #1043
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Dogs depend on which three are up. (lol) You get easy weeks and you get tougher weeks depending on combination.
    In 25man Elegon is a nightmare too. It's quite tightly tuned if you go in in ID 1-2.
    Vizier is that the boss with the latency check? Those little yellow orbs that spin around? Sorry can't distinguish the bugs by names^^.
    Don't know that one didn't give us much trouble, why would it be harder in 10m? You have less people failing to move.
    Vizier is the one with the orbs, but he also does Force and Verve which in its initial form was a nightmare for 10-man guilds. You had to bring in 3 healers, and if your guild is like mine, your options are VERY limited for what classes you have healing. If you have the wrong combination, you can easily be left without many raid cooldowns, which means your healing has to be optimal to survive that phase.

    If you go into 25man early in the expansion you can't have a gimpy tank/healer in 25man as well. Outgearing content fixes a lot of issues though and might be easier to do in 25man due to less mean RNG.
    Gimpy tank, maybe not. But I'm sure you could've had a poor healer and downed many of the fights, because you have 4 - 5 other healers who can carry them. Try doing a 10-man with one bad healer, where the other healer has to carry them the entire time, and you'll sing a different tune about how one bad player can ruin a 10-man guild's progression. I think the gap is a lot worse for DPS too. In a 10-man guild you have 5 - 6 DPS who have to do the same ratio of damage as a 25-man raid that has 18 DPS where one or two can easily slack off their rotation and nobody will notice. You can tell this because a lot of World of Logs entries for even the most hardcore guilds will have that one or two DPS who just didn't do their best that attempt.

  4. #1044
    Quote Originally Posted by Wowalixi View Post
    That graph isn't a very good representation of actual statistics. You're comparing raids that have been out for not even one expansion cycle yet to raids that have been out for what, nearly 3 years now? The reason you'll see a lot more Beast and Marrowgar kills is because you can jump into a raid with 10 idiots now and kill it on 25-man or 10-man. Meanwhile, not many people have gotten in the mood to go back and power through Cata content yet. I'm sure once you get to the end of MoP you will see Magmaw kills equaling nearly 2 million as people go back for transmog gear / achievements. It might actually be less now that achievements are shared, but if people want a piece of gear on their shaman, it will still count.

    As for rewarding 25-mans, I'm against changing anything. Right now people have their choice of style and it's working pretty well. Sure there are less active 25-man guilds, but a lot of people who do raid in 25-man guilds will tell you that the effort is usually worth it. People who don't say that are clearly choosing the wrong style and are refusing to admit it, or to change their old traditions.

    If anything, I would say make 25-mans a lot easier. I'm talking, put 25-man on a level between Normal / Raid Finder, put 10-man on a level between Normal / Heroic, and then make Heroics equally challenging, or maybe with 10-mans being slightly harder. This would generate a lot of interest in 25-mans because they can't down bosses in 10-man Normal, and the hardcore guilds could compete in 10-mans because that would be the most difficult of all the content. Essentially I'm saying just do what they did with Challenge Modes: smaller group, harder challenge. It would be like saying raiding with 25-mans is taking the easy way out, because it's the easiest mode, but you need to take your 10 best people in order to down any bosses in 10-man.

    Of course, my solution has always been for Blizzard to just suck it up and make all raids 15-man. They completed the transition from 25 to 10 mans already, just do it one more time and solve all of your problems.


    He wasn't saying you cherry-picked your raiders, he was saying that you're just selecting two bosses (out of 16) and saying that 10-man is easier.

    Now I haven't raided 25-mans since TBC, but wouldn't Elegon / Stone Guards / Imperial Vizier all be easier on 25-man? In 10-man, Elegon is a nightmare because your DPS absolutely have to be up to snuff, and nobody can slack on killing their sparks. On 25-man, you have 3 people per spark, so even if one isn't pulling such good burst numbers the other two can save him. Stone Guards you have more tanking options and more DPS to run the tiles. Vizier you can stack Disc priests and have a ton of more healing cooldowns to get through Force and Verve (which I guess is irrelevant now since it's been nerfed to hell)
    Haven't finished reading your thread on incorrect assumptions.
    But WoWProgress data shows the data as it was at current.

    Take Marrowgar 25.
    http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/19
    Last recorded kill, is during the final days of WotLK
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 587 Enh/573 Ele 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 14/14 HM SoO
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  5. #1045
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Repeat after me:
    The problem is NOT raid preparation on a personal level. Thats totally equal between 10 and 25.

    The problem is RECRUITING people. Everyone sees we didn't down Garalon 25 yet, but there are a plenthora of 10man ez-mode guilds that downed him. Guess where a new recruit would like to go?
    And so you come in a "how to reward [...] for logistical effort" thread and demand Blizzard "kills" one of it's raid versions just so the other can sustain itself. Don't take it to harsh but that's bias 101. The tactics and mechanics are the same in both 10m and 25m just a small portion is different, just like 25m you get the same boss zone so it's more crowded, in 10m it's needed for everyone to know the tactic. That's why I said, overall it's equal.

    And the recruiting part is up to your guild and the people willing to join. Like I said before, bring better players and make them learn the encounter and you won't fail. I don't think that if they all 25 players know what to do your raid will fail, the same in 10m. And regarding to your Garalon, it's even more needed for people to know what to do, kiters not to fail, DPS not to fail and hit enrage and healers not to fail to heal. Same in 25m and 10m, no ez-mode out there.
    Last edited by naturestorm; 2012-11-22 at 12:06 PM.

  6. #1046
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    But I'm sure you could've had a poor healer and downed many of the fights, because you have 4 - 5 other healers who can carry them. Try doing a 10-man with one bad healer, where the other healer has to carry them the entire time, and you'll sing a different tune about how one bad player can ruin a 10-man guild's progression. I think the gap is a lot worse for DPS too. In a 10-man guild you have 5 - 6 DPS who have to do the same ratio of damage as a 25-man raid that has 18 DPS where one or two can easily slack off their rotation and nobody will notice. You can tell this because a lot of World of Logs entries for even the most hardcore guilds will have that one or two DPS who just didn't do their best that attempt.
    I find it quite hilarious that you automatically assume that a 25man raid has only 2 sub average players. Believe me when I say that when ONE of our DPS slacked we hit Elegons enrage timer. Why? Because most of us are average. That isn't reserved for 10m guilds you know? If all your players are average one baddie will hurt equally in both raid sizes. The chance to have more than one baddie is higher in 25m though.

    That's where the "10m is more attractive b/c you don't have to carry dead weight" argument comes from.

    And so you come in a "how to reward [...] for logistical effort" thread and demand Blizzard "kills" one of it's raid versions just so the other can sustain itself.
    I know it's a big thread and you probably didn't read everything but I stated multiple times already that "moar epixx" isn't the answer because it would screw over the entire 10m community.

    Personally I don't think there is anything Blizzard can do at this point w/o severely upsetting their 10m followers. Between dying servers (guess that's our main problem, a server trans might save us in the long run), wow's old age and the attractiveness of easier 10m recruiting, 25m are doomed and will be reserved for the top guilds that can get recruits due to their reputation /prestige of being in them.

    And regarding to your Garalon, it's even more needed for people to know what to do, kiters not to fail, DPS not to fail and hit enrage and healers not to fail to heal.
    Best try was Enrage @ 7% w/o long time deaths. Need more tries or more gear, don't know yet. I'm not complaining though, I hate bosses that just roll over on the first evening. <_<

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  7. #1047
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Because if the other format is too easy, new people will flock to it en masse and cut off the needed supply of new recruits.
    Fair enough. But surely the best way to address this sort of issue is simply to put more effort into balance the encounter difficulty by tuning boss hp and damage output...

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    People constantly leave for whatever reasons. If almost everyone just wants to do easy 10man, those that want to do 25man eventually are FORCED to do 10man as well simply because "leaving people" > "new recruits gained".
    True. But your assertion rests on the assumption that 10 man content is easier than 25 man content, which is an easily fixable problem. Given that the objective difficulty between 10 man and 25 man is basically the same, it stands to reason that people are leaving 25s for reasons other than that 10 man is "easier".

    THAT is the problem and that is what Blizzard need to address, if at all possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Flask and food are worthless in MoP. Besides just tell every raider to farm his own stuff and there is no logistic burden involved.
    Meanwhile in a competing 10 man guild there is an officer who makes flasks and feasts for everyone. So the new recruit looks at this situation and decides that because he is lazy, he'd rather avoid the 25 man guild where he needs to organise his own flasks and food.

    I think most people commenting here, as well as Blizzard themselves, acknowledge that what makes 25 man raiding "harder" is not the content. It is the logistics. Sorting out flasks and food is a logistics issue. Why dismiss out of hand a good suggestion that directly addresses the issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Problem is the recruiting process.
    It's only a problem because of a lack of people wanting to do 25 man content. If people don't want to do the content, then why force them?


    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Yeah right. Will of the Emperor and Garalon would like to have a word with you. They are ridiculously easy in 10man compared to 25man.
    So then fix the encounter difficulty. Either make the 25 man version easier or the 10 man version harder.

  8. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Erm this discussion is about how to incentivise people so that more 25 mans happen.
    I think a better approach would be to remove the deterrents affecting 25s so that players can raid in their format of choice as much as possible.

    Incentivisation of 25s is actually easy - the trick is doing so without killing 10s or unbalancing the game. Another goal is ensuring the issues of the old model are also addressed. A lot also depends upon Blizzard - if they change the limitations under which they set the rules of the game, a lot can happen - e.g. if they decide they are willing to live with the issues inherent in the old model, then that model can likely be brought back with few issues.

    Under the assumptions that Blizzard wants to cause as little disruption as possible, and that it wants to keep 10 mans viable, we start operating within tightly defined boundaries that really limit what can be done. Then there are the various technical aspects which also impose limitations. Cross Realm Guilds, for example could help solve issues with recruiting and scheduling. Are these possible under the current system?

    Leaving aside technical viability, what can be done to help the system?

    A basic, simplistic overview.

    Recruiting is an issue for guilds.
    The pool of recruits needs to be expanded. Cross Realm Guilds, Cross Realm Raids, Cross Faction Raiding/Guilds may be of help.
    A better Recruiting UI may also be of assistance.
    Guild Perks may be a problem if they tie players too tighly into a certain guild. That, however, can also be a benefit

    Scheduling and no-shows are issues.
    Blizzard intention here was simple. If you got no-shows, you dropped down to 10s for the week, then remerged to a 25s. It was nice in theory but in practise, it doesn't work too well. Or maybe it did. Either way, it exposed players to 10s and as such may have encouraged them to stay there. Something like this is difficult to fix. PuGs and CR options may be of benefit in some cases. But not all. Scalable raids that adjust in difficulty with raid numbers could be ideal, but has strong issues of its own. NPCs could solve the issue, and the tech is in game but there would be issues with using them.

    Consumables
    It takes time to create feasts. Fishing, cooking, farming. Potions and flask need to be provided. In many situations, this burden falls on few players. Solutions range from doing away with buff food entirely through providing a certain number free each week via a chest reward of some sort through further adjusting the recipes to make 25s even more efficient. Players also want to see the return of Cauldrons for Alchemy. This is perhaps the easiest isdue to fix.

    Guild and raid management
    This is an aspect where 25s require much more work than 10s. There are solutions which can make a leaders life easier, or solutions which give him a reward for undertaking the chore. There is a fair degree of agreement that raid leaders should get some recognition for the effort and time they put in. Others are worried that singling out the raid leader for extra rewards would simply create jealousy and tear the team apart. I think most players woulf recognise a raid leader does extra work and deserves recogntion.

    Rewards
    Probably the most conentious issue. While there is some consensus that raid leaders deserve recognition, there is little here. Some people feel waiting around is a sacrifice and so should be rewarded. Others feel there isn't enough difference in workload to justify extra rewards.

    Then there is the nature of the rewards. Currently, 25s offer extra loot but that doesn't seem to have stopped the decline. Offering more risk unbalancing the game. Offering better threatens to kill 10s. Offering vanity/unique rewards, titles, achievements would simply create a situation where players felt the need to go for the reward and likely lead to a situation where one set of rewards had more prestige thean the other.

    Recruiting : Can only really be solved by expanding the population base open to the guild. Some changes to the UI, as an example, may make this aspect easier.
    Scheduling: Ideally, Pugging would be the solution. As noted - it doesn't happen. Group usually simply split into 2 10 mans with a fair chance of stating that way. Scalable raids seem unlikely. Merc NPCs have strong issues against them, but may be the simplest option to implment short term
    Consumables: Lots of options to allow players to cut down on time spent farming outside a raid. Its more a question of "is change necessary?".
    Management: I like the idea of recognising the work down by raid leaders. I think there are too many who have given up leading because there is no reason for them to do so. Provide a rewrad for them, you may get more forming 25s. More 25s being formed means more players get a better shot at a convenient time slot.
    Rewards: 25s already get more loot than 10s. I'm not sure how much more can be given without upsetting the balance. Giving better gear is likely out entirely as that would affect 10s.Splitting Achievements is possibliliy, giving greater recognition and identity to each format....but also requires that the problems for which the Achs were shared be addressed via different means. A more radical solution would be to move to a token based system entirely. Remove the RNG and assume players will work their way towards buying the teir set they need. That way, you'd gain more flexibility with rewards and players doing 25s would get a definite advantage but at a cost of elemenst such as the coins.

    EJL

  9. #1049
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I find it quite hilarious that you automatically assume that a 25man raid has only 2 sub average players. Believe me when I say that when ONE of our DPS slacked we hit Elegons enrage timer. Why? Because most of us are average. That isn't reserved for 10m guilds you know? If all your players are average one baddie will hurt equally in both raid sizes. The chance to have more than one baddie is higher in 25m though.

    That's where the "10m is more attractive b/c you don't have to carry dead weight" argument comes from.
    But the problem is that people assume that 10-man guilds are full of people who are extremely skilled players, just because they require fewer players to do. That's my only issue with this whole argument between 10s and 25s. Both raid sizes are full of average players, and many guilds only have average players. I'd probably rank 6 of my guild's main raid team as average, 2 as good and 2 as bad. So we also face difficulty in progression. The only thing I'm arguing is that you can't instantly say 10-man is easier just because it requires less people. For average raid groups it has its own fair share of challenges, and it gets annoying when people say it's not real raiding or it's ez-mode raiding.

  10. #1050
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Recruiting is an issue for guilds.
    The pool of recruits needs to be expanded. Cross Realm Guilds, Cross Realm Raids, Cross Faction Raiding/Guilds may be of help.
    A better Recruiting UI may also be of assistance.
    Guild Perks may be a problem if they tie players too tighly into a certain guild. That, however, can also be a benefit
    The solution to recruiting is to make an end-game that people actually want to play. In TBC there were all kinds of cool unique things that you got to see through raiding, which is a great motivator. Doing the same stuff you've already rushed through in LFR/normal or doing it in a more difficult configuration or with more people is not motivating, it's the very definition of a pointless grind which is what the WoW end-game has deteriorated into.

    Scheduling and no-shows are issues.
    This is 100% guild management issue and nothing to do with Blizzard. Given that Blizzard usually just screws everything up when they try to "fix" things, they should just leave this one alone.

    Consumables
    Complete non-issue.

    Guild and raid management
    This is an aspect where 25s require much more work than 10s. There are solutions which can make a leaders life easier, or solutions which give him a reward for undertaking the chore. There is a fair degree of agreement that raid leaders should get some recognition for the effort and time they put in. Others are worried that singling out the raid leader for extra rewards would simply create jealousy and tear the team apart. I think most players woulf recognise a raid leader does extra work and deserves recogntion.
    The extra work is not a problem in itself, it just needs to be worthwhile. And it's absolutely not just about rewarding some raid leader or whatever, it is the whole raid, every single player that must get proper risk/reward.

  11. #1051
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    But the problem is that people assume that 10-man guilds are full of people who are extremely skilled players, just because they require fewer players to do. That's my only issue with this whole argument between 10s and 25s.
    Well, that's the point. It is easier to find 10 good & active people than 25. But still, I agree with you that assuming all 10 are elite is stupid.

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  12. #1052
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    I think a better approach would be to remove the deterrents affecting 25s so that players can raid in their format of choice as much as possible.

    Incentivisation of 25s is actually easy - the trick is doing so without killing 10s or unbalancing the game. Another goal is ensuring the issues of the old model are also addressed. A lot also depends upon Blizzard - if they change the limitations under which they set the rules of the game, a lot can happen - e.g. if they decide they are willing to live with the issues inherent in the old model, then that model can likely be brought back with few issues.

    Under the assumptions that Blizzard wants to cause as little disruption as possible, and that it wants to keep 10 mans viable, we start operating within tightly defined boundaries that really limit what can be done. Then there are the various technical aspects which also impose limitations. Cross Realm Guilds, for example could help solve issues with recruiting and scheduling. Are these possible under the current system?

    Leaving aside technical viability, what can be done to help the system?

    A basic, simplistic overview.

    Recruiting is an issue for guilds.
    The pool of recruits needs to be expanded. Cross Realm Guilds, Cross Realm Raids, Cross Faction Raiding/Guilds may be of help.
    A better Recruiting UI may also be of assistance.
    Guild Perks may be a problem if they tie players too tighly into a certain guild. That, however, can also be a benefit

    Scheduling and no-shows are issues.
    Blizzard intention here was simple. If you got no-shows, you dropped down to 10s for the week, then remerged to a 25s. It was nice in theory but in practise, it doesn't work too well. Or maybe it did. Either way, it exposed players to 10s and as such may have encouraged them to stay there. Something like this is difficult to fix. PuGs and CR options may be of benefit in some cases. But not all. Scalable raids that adjust in difficulty with raid numbers could be ideal, but has strong issues of its own. NPCs could solve the issue, and the tech is in game but there would be issues with using them.

    Consumables
    It takes time to create feasts. Fishing, cooking, farming. Potions and flask need to be provided. In many situations, this burden falls on few players. Solutions range from doing away with buff food entirely through providing a certain number free each week via a chest reward of some sort through further adjusting the recipes to make 25s even more efficient. Players also want to see the return of Cauldrons for Alchemy. This is perhaps the easiest isdue to fix.

    Guild and raid management
    This is an aspect where 25s require much more work than 10s. There are solutions which can make a leaders life easier, or solutions which give him a reward for undertaking the chore. There is a fair degree of agreement that raid leaders should get some recognition for the effort and time they put in. Others are worried that singling out the raid leader for extra rewards would simply create jealousy and tear the team apart. I think most players woulf recognise a raid leader does extra work and deserves recogntion.

    Rewards
    Probably the most conentious issue. While there is some consensus that raid leaders deserve recognition, there is little here. Some people feel waiting around is a sacrifice and so should be rewarded. Others feel there isn't enough difference in workload to justify extra rewards.

    Then there is the nature of the rewards. Currently, 25s offer extra loot but that doesn't seem to have stopped the decline. Offering more risk unbalancing the game. Offering better threatens to kill 10s. Offering vanity/unique rewards, titles, achievements would simply create a situation where players felt the need to go for the reward and likely lead to a situation where one set of rewards had more prestige thean the other.

    Recruiting : Can only really be solved by expanding the population base open to the guild. Some changes to the UI, as an example, may make this aspect easier.
    Scheduling: Ideally, Pugging would be the solution. As noted - it doesn't happen. Group usually simply split into 2 10 mans with a fair chance of stating that way. Scalable raids seem unlikely. Merc NPCs have strong issues against them, but may be the simplest option to implment short term
    Consumables: Lots of options to allow players to cut down on time spent farming outside a raid. Its more a question of "is change necessary?".
    Management: I like the idea of recognising the work down by raid leaders. I think there are too many who have given up leading because there is no reason for them to do so. Provide a rewrad for them, you may get more forming 25s. More 25s being formed means more players get a better shot at a convenient time slot.
    Rewards: 25s already get more loot than 10s. I'm not sure how much more can be given without upsetting the balance. Giving better gear is likely out entirely as that would affect 10s.Splitting Achievements is possibliliy, giving greater recognition and identity to each format....but also requires that the problems for which the Achs were shared be addressed via different means. A more radical solution would be to move to a token based system entirely. Remove the RNG and assume players will work their way towards buying the teir set they need. That way, you'd gain more flexibility with rewards and players doing 25s would get a definite advantage but at a cost of elemenst such as the coins.

    EJL
    Or, you can just nerf 25 mans down to the point where people actually want to do them.

    Problem solved, easily and quickly. The only people negatively effected are super hardcore raiders, and they don't matter at all.

    Edit - can anyone give me a cogent reason why nerfing 25 mans to remove the logistical issues entirely is a bad thing for the game in general, and 25 mans in particular?
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  13. #1053
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Or, you can just nerf 25 mans down to the point where people actually want to do them.

    Problem solved, easily and quickly. The only people negatively effected are super hardcore raiders, and they don't matter at all.

    Edit - can anyone give me a cogent reason why nerfing 25 mans to remove the logistical issues entirely is a bad thing for the game in general, and 25 mans in particular?
    Because we already have a nerfed 25 man raid, it's this thing called LFR, perhaps you have heard of it.

    And why not just nerf all raid formats while we are at it then, so every single person can get into every guild because absolutely no skill is required. Would that take the fun out of raiding and progressing? Nooo... Please just think about what you are saying. People are already whining about LFR being too boring and easy, imagine every raid format being nerfed to that.
    Last edited by Khaldi; 2012-11-22 at 01:11 PM.

  14. #1054
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    The solution to recruiting is to make an end-game that people actually want to play.
    They do. But players go 10s. While I think this is more than acceptable for the vast majority of players, I do think that there are those players who do prefer 25s but cannot, for various reasons, raid in the format of their choice. Granted, this isn't due to a deliberate design decision but at the same time, if something reasonable can be done to ensure that any factors which may cause players to choose 10s even if they prefer 25s are mitigated/removed, then that woudl be good for the game.


    This is 100% guild management issue and nothing to do with Blizzard. Given that Blizzard usually just screws everything up when they try to "fix" things, they should just leave this one alone.

    Complete non-issue.
    In some ways yes. At the same time, its often an additional logistics burden that can detre players from runiing a 25 man group.

    The extra work is not a problem in itself, it just needs to be worthwhile. And it's absolutely not just about rewarding some raid leader or whatever, it is the whole raid, every single player that must get proper risk/reward.
    Even if their risk is that of boredom while they stand around waiting for the raid leader to finish calling up everyone who didn't make it on time and trying to find PuGs for those who can't make it? No. 25s get their reward with the extra gear they get as part of 25s. Give raidleaders soemthign esle to ensure that their time, that time they spend on guild and raid duties that noone else takes care of is recognised.

    EJL

  15. #1055
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesus View Post
    Because we already have a nerfed 25 man raid, it's this thing called LFR, perhaps you have heard of it.
    And it's very very popular.

    So erm - why not just carry on with the LFR theme and nerf 25 mans on normal and HC mode until they are popular again?

    What's the actual issue?
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  16. #1056
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Or, you can just nerf 25 mans down to the point where people actually want to do them.
    Do that and you may as well just keep 10s and LFR. If you kept the gear the same, you'd have people flocking to 25s to pick up the easy gear and 10s would die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Or, you can just nerf 25 mans down to the point where people actually want to do them.
    Do that and you may as well just keep 10s and LFR. If you kept the gear the same, you'd have people flocking to 25s to pick up the easy gear and 10s would die.

    You end up removing one format from the game. At best, what you end up doing is the total opposite of what Blizzard wants- instead of people going for the format they want, they go for the format that gives them gear.

    If you want a free choice of format, then the current system works well - comparable difficulty with compable rewards.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2012-11-22 at 01:28 PM.

  17. #1057
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesus View Post
    Because we already have a nerfed 25 man raid, it's this thing called LFR, perhaps you have heard of it.

    And why not just nerf all raid formats while we are at it then, so every single person can get into every guild because absolutely no skill is required. Would that take the fun out of raiding and progressing? Nooo... Please just think about what you are saying. People are already whining about LFR being too boring and easy, imagine every raid format being nerfed to that.
    And why don't you stop blowing things out of proportion? He suggested making 25-mans easier to make them more attractive to do despite the increased amount of people it requires. It's a decent concept in theory, where we would have the 10-man raiding for the elite crowd and the 25-man raiding for the average crowd. I'm just not sure how effective it would be in practice.

    LFR is boring and easy because you are raiding with 24 people you don't know and all strategy goes out the window in that case. Having an easier version of raiding for 25-mans can easily be differentiated from LFR by making at least some semblance of strategy necessary. We're just talking about making the tuning not so tight (ie, you can have 5 or 6 fails in the group and still succeed, though they would still have to follow a strategy).

    Do that and you may as well just keep 10s and LFR. If you kept the gear the same, you'd have people flocking to 25s to pick up the easy gear and 10s would die.

    EJL
    Not necessarily. The people who are in 10-man guilds by choice (they raid with friends) or necessity (low server population) would probably stay there. The problem is that you are thinking that people will automatically flock to whichever one is easiest difficulty, which is not always true. The majority of people will always choose the path of least resistance. In other words, they'll choose the raid difficulty that is the easiest to assemble.
    Last edited by Wowalixi; 2012-11-22 at 01:27 PM.

  18. #1058
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    And it's very very popular.

    So erm - why not just carry on with the LFR theme and nerf 25 mans on normal and HC mode until they are popular again?

    What's the actual issue?
    Because that's not what people are asking for? Or at least those who still care about something even remotely resembling a challenge. If you nerf 25s into 'almost but not quite LFR', this will increase its popularity, sure. At the same time, it will completely kill off 10 mans, since you'd be offering same rewards for trivial effort. And those who wanted the difficulty to remain the same, but merely needed some help with logistics? They gain nothing, except trivializing the format they used to raid in.

  19. #1059
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    And it's very very popular.

    So erm - why not just carry on with the LFR theme and nerf 25 mans on normal and HC mode until they are popular again?

    What's the actual issue?
    I already answered this directly a page or two back. Clearly you just ignored it.

    There is a lot of merit in providing different levels of content to appeal to different players. By nerfing current 25 man content you would not be appealing to any need that is not currently being met.

    Nerfing 25 man may very well see the format become a lot more popular, but it would also not help to solve the actual problem, namely providing something to cater for people who want to raid the current 25 man content but feel they can't because there isn't enough interest in it.

    Instead all you'll be doing is offering redundant content to people already happy with the current 10 man and LFR situations, and probably just make them less happy overall.

  20. #1060
    Quote Originally Posted by Wowalixi View Post
    And why don't you stop blowing things out of proportion? He suggested making 25-mans easier to make them more attractive to do despite the increased amount of people it requires. It's a decent concept in theory, where we would have the 10-man raiding for the elite crowd and the 25-man raiding for the average crowd. I'm just not sure how effective it would be in practice.

    LFR is boring and easy because you are raiding with 24 people you don't know and all strategy goes out the window in that case. Having an easier version of raiding for 25-mans can easily be differentiated from LFR by making at least some semblance of strategy necessary. We're just talking about making the tuning not so tight (ie, you can have 5 or 6 fails in the group and still succeed, though they would still have to follow a strategy).


    Not necessarily. The people who are in 10-man guilds by choice (they raid with friends) or necessity (low server population) would probably stay there. The problem is that you are thinking that people will automatically flock to whichever one is easiest difficulty, which is not always true. The majority of people will always choose the path of least resistance. In other words, they'll choose the raid difficulty that is the easiest to assemble.
    Yeah but with that logic why not just nerf the 10man content so you'll have LFR which is ridiculously easy, 10man which would be very easy, and then 25 man. So all the "pro" 10 man people would want to do the "hardest" content which would be 25 man at that point = 25 become more popular, yey! Eh?

    I don't see any point in any nerfing in any content, I am totally against all nerfing of heroic modes especially. And I have no problem with this 10/25 thing as it is, the only thing I'd be totally over the moon for would be to bring back separate raidlockouts. There was soo much to do in Wotlk, was awesome being to do a mainraid on your main, then still do a fun other raid later on with friends or w/e whenever.

    I don't think 25 mans need any "special incentives" to be done, if you love it you do it. It sucks if you're stuck on a lowpop realm but hey you can always transfer, even tho that may suck. I run a 25 man guild atm, it's a bunch of work but it's worth it. If I enjoyed 10mans, I'd do them, but I don't (other than for altraiding, although I still prefer 25 man altraids).

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