How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Talen]

Erm this discussion is about how to incentivise people so that more 25 mans happen.

I think a better approach would be to remove the deterrents affecting 25s so that players can raid in their format of choice as much as possible.

Incentivisation of 25s is actually easy - the trick is doing so without killing 10s or unbalancing the game. Another goal is ensuring the issues of the old model are also addressed. A lot also depends upon Blizzard - if they change the limitations under which they set the rules of the game, a lot can happen - e.g. if they decide they are willing to live with the issues inherent in the old model, then that model can likely be brought back with few issues.

Under the assumptions that Blizzard wants to cause as little disruption as possible, and that it wants to keep 10 mans viable, we start operating within tightly defined boundaries that really limit what can be done. Then there are the various technical aspects which also impose limitations. Cross Realm Guilds, for example could help solve issues with recruiting and scheduling. Are these possible under the current system?

Leaving aside technical viability, what can be done to help the system?

A basic, simplistic overview.

Recruiting is an issue for guilds.
The pool of recruits needs to be expanded. Cross Realm Guilds, Cross Realm Raids, Cross Faction Raiding/Guilds may be of help.
A better Recruiting UI may also be of assistance.
Guild Perks may be a problem if they tie players too tighly into a certain guild. That, however, can also be a benefit

Scheduling and no-shows are issues.
Blizzard intention here was simple. If you got no-shows, you dropped down to 10s for the week, then remerged to a 25s. It was nice in theory but in practise, it doesn't work too well. Or maybe it did. Either way, it exposed players to 10s and as such may have encouraged them to stay there. Something like this is difficult to fix. PuGs and CR options may be of benefit in some cases. But not all. Scalable raids that adjust in difficulty with raid numbers could be ideal, but has strong issues of its own. NPCs could solve the issue, and the tech is in game but there would be issues with using them.

Consumables
It takes time to create feasts. Fishing, cooking, farming. Potions and flask need to be provided. In many situations, this burden falls on few players. Solutions range from doing away with buff food entirely through providing a certain number free each week via a chest reward of some sort through further adjusting the recipes to make 25s even more efficient. Players also want to see the return of Cauldrons for Alchemy. This is perhaps the easiest isdue to fix.

Guild and raid management
This is an aspect where 25s require much more work than 10s. There are solutions which can make a leaders life easier, or solutions which give him a reward for undertaking the chore. There is a fair degree of agreement that raid leaders should get some recognition for the effort and time they put in. Others are worried that singling out the raid leader for extra rewards would simply create jealousy and tear the team apart. I think most players woulf recognise a raid leader does extra work and deserves recogntion.

Rewards
Probably the most conentious issue. While there is some consensus that raid leaders deserve recognition, there is little here. Some people feel waiting around is a sacrifice and so should be rewarded. Others feel there isn't enough difference in workload to justify extra rewards.

Then there is the nature of the rewards. Currently, 25s offer extra loot but that doesn't seem to have stopped the decline. Offering more risk unbalancing the game. Offering better threatens to kill 10s. Offering vanity/unique rewards, titles, achievements would simply create a situation where players felt the need to go for the reward and likely lead to a situation where one set of rewards had more prestige thean the other.

Recruiting : Can only really be solved by expanding the population base open to the guild. Some changes to the UI, as an example, may make this aspect easier.
Scheduling: Ideally, Pugging would be the solution. As noted - it doesn't happen. Group usually simply split into 2 10 mans with a fair chance of stating that way. Scalable raids seem unlikely. Merc NPCs have strong issues against them, but may be the simplest option to implment short term
Consumables: Lots of options to allow players to cut down on time spent farming outside a raid. Its more a question of "is change necessary?".
Management: I like the idea of recognising the work down by raid leaders. I think there are too many who have given up leading because there is no reason for them to do so. Provide a rewrad for them, you may get more forming 25s. More 25s being formed means more players get a better shot at a convenient time slot.
Rewards: 25s already get more loot than 10s. I'm not sure how much more can be given without upsetting the balance. Giving better gear is likely out entirely as that would affect 10s.Splitting Achievements is possibliliy, giving greater recognition and identity to each format....but also requires that the problems for which the Achs were shared be addressed via different means. A more radical solution would be to move to a token based system entirely. Remove the RNG and assume players will work their way towards buying the teir set they need. That way, you'd gain more flexibility with rewards and players doing 25s would get a definite advantage but at a cost of elemenst such as the coins.

EJL

[IxilaFA]

I find it quite hilarious that you automatically assume that a 25man raid has only 2 sub average players. Believe me when I say that when ONE of our DPS slacked we hit Elegons enrage timer. Why? Because most of us are average. That isn't reserved for 10m guilds you know? If all your players are average one baddie will hurt equally in both raid sizes. The chance to have more than one baddie is higher in 25m though.

That's where the "10m is more attractive b/c you don't have to carry dead weight" argument comes from.

But the problem is that people assume that 10-man guilds are full of people who are extremely skilled players, just because they require fewer players to do. That's my only issue with this whole argument between 10s and 25s. Both raid sizes are full of average players, and many guilds only have average players. I'd probably rank 6 of my guild's main raid team as average, 2 as good and 2 as bad. So we also face difficulty in progression. The only thing I'm arguing is that you can't instantly say 10-man is easier just because it requires less people. For average raid groups it has its own fair share of challenges, and it gets annoying when people say it's not real raiding or it's ez-mode raiding.

[Deleted]

Recruiting is an issue for guilds.
The pool of recruits needs to be expanded. Cross Realm Guilds, Cross Realm Raids, Cross Faction Raiding/Guilds may be of help.
A better Recruiting UI may also be of assistance.
Guild Perks may be a problem if they tie players too tighly into a certain guild. That, however, can also be a benefit

The solution to recruiting is to make an end-game that people actually want to play. In TBC there were all kinds of cool unique things that you got to see through raiding, which is a great motivator. Doing the same stuff you've already rushed through in LFR/normal or doing it in a more difficult configuration or with more people is not motivating, it's the very definition of a pointless grind which is what the WoW end-game has deteriorated into.

Scheduling and no-shows are issues.

This is 100% guild management issue and nothing to do with Blizzard. Given that Blizzard usually just screws everything up when they try to "fix" things, they should just leave this one alone.

Consumables

Complete non-issue.

Guild and raid management
This is an aspect where 25s require much more work than 10s. There are solutions which can make a leaders life easier, or solutions which give him a reward for undertaking the chore. There is a fair degree of agreement that raid leaders should get some recognition for the effort and time they put in. Others are worried that singling out the raid leader for extra rewards would simply create jealousy and tear the team apart. I think most players woulf recognise a raid leader does extra work and deserves recogntion.

The extra work is not a problem in itself, it just needs to be worthwhile. And it's absolutely not just about rewarding some raid leader or whatever, it is the whole raid, every single player that must get proper risk/reward.

[Granyala]

But the problem is that people assume that 10-man guilds are full of people who are extremely skilled players, just because they require fewer players to do. That's my only issue with this whole argument between 10s and 25s.

Well, that's the point. It is easier to find 10 good & active people than 25. But still, I agree with you that assuming all 10 are elite is stupid.

[Deleted]

I think a better approach would be to remove the deterrents affecting 25s so that players can raid in their format of choice as much as possible.

Incentivisation of 25s is actually easy - the trick is doing so without killing 10s or unbalancing the game. Another goal is ensuring the issues of the old model are also addressed. A lot also depends upon Blizzard - if they change the limitations under which they set the rules of the game, a lot can happen - e.g. if they decide they are willing to live with the issues inherent in the old model, then that model can likely be brought back with few issues.

Under the assumptions that Blizzard wants to cause as little disruption as possible, and that it wants to keep 10 mans viable, we start operating within tightly defined boundaries that really limit what can be done. Then there are the various technical aspects which also impose limitations. Cross Realm Guilds, for example could help solve issues with recruiting and scheduling. Are these possible under the current system?

Leaving aside technical viability, what can be done to help the system?

A basic, simplistic overview.

Recruiting is an issue for guilds.
The pool of recruits needs to be expanded. Cross Realm Guilds, Cross Realm Raids, Cross Faction Raiding/Guilds may be of help.
A better Recruiting UI may also be of assistance.
Guild Perks may be a problem if they tie players too tighly into a certain guild. That, however, can also be a benefit

Scheduling and no-shows are issues.
Blizzard intention here was simple. If you got no-shows, you dropped down to 10s for the week, then remerged to a 25s. It was nice in theory but in practise, it doesn't work too well. Or maybe it did. Either way, it exposed players to 10s and as such may have encouraged them to stay there. Something like this is difficult to fix. PuGs and CR options may be of benefit in some cases. But not all. Scalable raids that adjust in difficulty with raid numbers could be ideal, but has strong issues of its own. NPCs could solve the issue, and the tech is in game but there would be issues with using them.

Consumables
It takes time to create feasts. Fishing, cooking, farming. Potions and flask need to be provided. In many situations, this burden falls on few players. Solutions range from doing away with buff food entirely through providing a certain number free each week via a chest reward of some sort through further adjusting the recipes to make 25s even more efficient. Players also want to see the return of Cauldrons for Alchemy. This is perhaps the easiest isdue to fix.

Guild and raid management
This is an aspect where 25s require much more work than 10s. There are solutions which can make a leaders life easier, or solutions which give him a reward for undertaking the chore. There is a fair degree of agreement that raid leaders should get some recognition for the effort and time they put in. Others are worried that singling out the raid leader for extra rewards would simply create jealousy and tear the team apart. I think most players woulf recognise a raid leader does extra work and deserves recogntion.

Rewards
Probably the most conentious issue. While there is some consensus that raid leaders deserve recognition, there is little here. Some people feel waiting around is a sacrifice and so should be rewarded. Others feel there isn't enough difference in workload to justify extra rewards.

Then there is the nature of the rewards. Currently, 25s offer extra loot but that doesn't seem to have stopped the decline. Offering more risk unbalancing the game. Offering better threatens to kill 10s. Offering vanity/unique rewards, titles, achievements would simply create a situation where players felt the need to go for the reward and likely lead to a situation where one set of rewards had more prestige thean the other.

Recruiting : Can only really be solved by expanding the population base open to the guild. Some changes to the UI, as an example, may make this aspect easier.
Scheduling: Ideally, Pugging would be the solution. As noted - it doesn't happen. Group usually simply split into 2 10 mans with a fair chance of stating that way. Scalable raids seem unlikely. Merc NPCs have strong issues against them, but may be the simplest option to implment short term
Consumables: Lots of options to allow players to cut down on time spent farming outside a raid. Its more a question of "is change necessary?".
Management: I like the idea of recognising the work down by raid leaders. I think there are too many who have given up leading because there is no reason for them to do so. Provide a rewrad for them, you may get more forming 25s. More 25s being formed means more players get a better shot at a convenient time slot.
Rewards: 25s already get more loot than 10s. I'm not sure how much more can be given without upsetting the balance. Giving better gear is likely out entirely as that would affect 10s.Splitting Achievements is possibliliy, giving greater recognition and identity to each format....but also requires that the problems for which the Achs were shared be addressed via different means. A more radical solution would be to move to a token based system entirely. Remove the RNG and assume players will work their way towards buying the teir set they need. That way, you'd gain more flexibility with rewards and players doing 25s would get a definite advantage but at a cost of elemenst such as the coins.

EJL

Or, you can just nerf 25 mans down to the point where people actually want to do them.

Problem solved, easily and quickly. The only people negatively effected are super hardcore raiders, and they don't matter at all.

Edit - can anyone give me a cogent reason why nerfing 25 mans to remove the logistical issues entirely is a bad thing for the game in general, and 25 mans in particular?

[Deleted]

Or, you can just nerf 25 mans down to the point where people actually want to do them.

Problem solved, easily and quickly. The only people negatively effected are super hardcore raiders, and they don't matter at all.

Edit - can anyone give me a cogent reason why nerfing 25 mans to remove the logistical issues entirely is a bad thing for the game in general, and 25 mans in particular?

Because we already have a nerfed 25 man raid, it's this thing called LFR, perhaps you have heard of it.

And why not just nerf all raid formats while we are at it then, so every single person can get into every guild because absolutely no skill is required. Would that take the fun out of raiding and progressing? Nooo... Please just think about what you are saying. People are already whining about LFR being too boring and easy, imagine every raid format being nerfed to that.

[Talen]

The solution to recruiting is to make an end-game that people actually want to play.

They do. But players go 10s. While I think this is more than acceptable for the vast majority of players, I do think that there are those players who do prefer 25s but cannot, for various reasons, raid in the format of their choice. Granted, this isn't due to a deliberate design decision but at the same time, if something reasonable can be done to ensure that any factors which may cause players to choose 10s even if they prefer 25s are mitigated/removed, then that woudl be good for the game.

This is 100% guild management issue and nothing to do with Blizzard. Given that Blizzard usually just screws everything up when they try to "fix" things, they should just leave this one alone.

Complete non-issue.

In some ways yes. At the same time, its often an additional logistics burden that can detre players from runiing a 25 man group.

The extra work is not a problem in itself, it just needs to be worthwhile. And it's absolutely not just about rewarding some raid leader or whatever, it is the whole raid, every single player that must get proper risk/reward.

Even if their risk is that of boredom while they stand around waiting for the raid leader to finish calling up everyone who didn't make it on time and trying to find PuGs for those who can't make it? No. 25s get their reward with the extra gear they get as part of 25s. Give raidleaders soemthign esle to ensure that their time, that time they spend on guild and raid duties that noone else takes care of is recognised.

EJL

[Deleted]

Because we already have a nerfed 25 man raid, it's this thing called LFR, perhaps you have heard of it.

And it's very very popular.

So erm - why not just carry on with the LFR theme and nerf 25 mans on normal and HC mode until they are popular again?

What's the actual issue?

[Talen]

Or, you can just nerf 25 mans down to the point where people actually want to do them.

Do that and you may as well just keep 10s and LFR. If you kept the gear the same, you'd have people flocking to 25s to pick up the easy gear and 10s would die.

Or, you can just nerf 25 mans down to the point where people actually want to do them.

Do that and you may as well just keep 10s and LFR. If you kept the gear the same, you'd have people flocking to 25s to pick up the easy gear and 10s would die.

You end up removing one format from the game. At best, what you end up doing is the total opposite of what Blizzard wants- instead of people going for the format they want, they go for the format that gives them gear.

If you want a free choice of format, then the current system works well - comparable difficulty with compable rewards.

EJL

[IxilaFA]

Because we already have a nerfed 25 man raid, it's this thing called LFR, perhaps you have heard of it.

And why not just nerf all raid formats while we are at it then, so every single person can get into every guild because absolutely no skill is required. Would that take the fun out of raiding and progressing? Nooo... Please just think about what you are saying. People are already whining about LFR being too boring and easy, imagine every raid format being nerfed to that.

And why don't you stop blowing things out of proportion? He suggested making 25-mans easier to make them more attractive to do despite the increased amount of people it requires. It's a decent concept in theory, where we would have the 10-man raiding for the elite crowd and the 25-man raiding for the average crowd. I'm just not sure how effective it would be in practice.

LFR is boring and easy because you are raiding with 24 people you don't know and all strategy goes out the window in that case. Having an easier version of raiding for 25-mans can easily be differentiated from LFR by making at least some semblance of strategy necessary. We're just talking about making the tuning not so tight (ie, you can have 5 or 6 fails in the group and still succeed, though they would still have to follow a strategy).

Do that and you may as well just keep 10s and LFR. If you kept the gear the same, you'd have people flocking to 25s to pick up the easy gear and 10s would die.

EJL

Not necessarily. The people who are in 10-man guilds by choice (they raid with friends) or necessity (low server population) would probably stay there. The problem is that you are thinking that people will automatically flock to whichever one is easiest difficulty, which is not always true. The majority of people will always choose the path of least resistance. In other words, they'll choose the raid difficulty that is the easiest to assemble.

[KaPe]

And it's very very popular.

So erm - why not just carry on with the LFR theme and nerf 25 mans on normal and HC mode until they are popular again?

What's the actual issue?

Because that's not what people are asking for? Or at least those who still care about something even remotely resembling a challenge. If you nerf 25s into 'almost but not quite LFR', this will increase its popularity, sure. At the same time, it will completely kill off 10 mans, since you'd be offering same rewards for trivial effort. And those who wanted the difficulty to remain the same, but merely needed some help with logistics? They gain nothing, except trivializing the format they used to raid in.

[Raelbo]

And it's very very popular.

So erm - why not just carry on with the LFR theme and nerf 25 mans on normal and HC mode until they are popular again?

What's the actual issue?

I already answered this directly a page or two back. Clearly you just ignored it.

There is a lot of merit in providing different levels of content to appeal to different players. By nerfing current 25 man content you would not be appealing to any need that is not currently being met.

Nerfing 25 man may very well see the format become a lot more popular, but it would also not help to solve the actual problem, namely providing something to cater for people who want to raid the current 25 man content but feel they can't because there isn't enough interest in it.

Instead all you'll be doing is offering redundant content to people already happy with the current 10 man and LFR situations, and probably just make them less happy overall.

[Deleted]

And why don't you stop blowing things out of proportion? He suggested making 25-mans easier to make them more attractive to do despite the increased amount of people it requires. It's a decent concept in theory, where we would have the 10-man raiding for the elite crowd and the 25-man raiding for the average crowd. I'm just not sure how effective it would be in practice.

LFR is boring and easy because you are raiding with 24 people you don't know and all strategy goes out the window in that case. Having an easier version of raiding for 25-mans can easily be differentiated from LFR by making at least some semblance of strategy necessary. We're just talking about making the tuning not so tight (ie, you can have 5 or 6 fails in the group and still succeed, though they would still have to follow a strategy).


Not necessarily. The people who are in 10-man guilds by choice (they raid with friends) or necessity (low server population) would probably stay there. The problem is that you are thinking that people will automatically flock to whichever one is easiest difficulty, which is not always true. The majority of people will always choose the path of least resistance. In other words, they'll choose the raid difficulty that is the easiest to assemble.

Yeah but with that logic why not just nerf the 10man content so you'll have LFR which is ridiculously easy, 10man which would be very easy, and then 25 man. So all the "pro" 10 man people would want to do the "hardest" content which would be 25 man at that point = 25 become more popular, yey! Eh?

I don't see any point in any nerfing in any content, I am totally against all nerfing of heroic modes especially. And I have no problem with this 10/25 thing as it is, the only thing I'd be totally over the moon for would be to bring back separate raidlockouts. There was soo much to do in Wotlk, was awesome being to do a mainraid on your main, then still do a fun other raid later on with friends or w/e whenever.

I don't think 25 mans need any "special incentives" to be done, if you love it you do it. It sucks if you're stuck on a lowpop realm but hey you can always transfer, even tho that may suck. I run a 25 man guild atm, it's a bunch of work but it's worth it. If I enjoyed 10mans, I'd do them, but I don't (other than for altraiding, although I still prefer 25 man altraids).

[Deleted]

Do that and you may as well just keep 10s and LFR. If you kept the gear the same, you'd have people flocking to 25s to pick up the easy gear and 10s would die.

But that's what you wanted.....

Do that and you may as well just keep 10s and LFR. If you kept the gear the same, you'd have people flocking to 25s to pick up the easy gear and 10s would die.

...and that's what a lot of people o the thread want to happen. 10 man will be seen as the progression, hardmode standard that the elite chase world firsts on, everyone else will be having fun in 25 mans, just like the OP desires.....what's the actual issue?

You end up removing one format from the game. At best, what you end up doing is the total opposite of what Blizzard wants- instead of people going for the format they want, they go for the format that gives them gear.

Not so - people do 10 mans at their current level en masse. Nerf 25 mans and people can genuinely choose between them. Job done.

If you want a free choice of format, then the current system works well - comparable difficulty with compable rewards.

EJL

Ok, so you think there is no reason to do anything for 25 mans. Fair enough.

[Raelbo]

He suggested making 25-mans easier to make them more attractive to do despite the increased amount of people it requires. It's a decent concept in theory,

But it completely misses the point because it fails to fix the problem at hand...

where we would have the 10-man raiding for the elite crowd and the 25-man raiding for the average crowd. I'm just not sure how effective it would be in practice.

Why would anyone want this? We have NORMAL modes for the average crowd, and HEROIC modes for the elite crowd. Why complicate matters by tying raid size to the difficulty quotient?

[Deleted]

I already answered this directly a page or two back. Clearly you just ignored it.

There is a lot of merit in providing different levels of content to appeal to different players. By nerfing current 25 man content you would not be appealing to any need that is not currently being met.

You are talking about maybe a few thousand people. They don't matter compared to everyone else. At all.

Nerfing 25 man may very well see the format become a lot more popular, but it would also not help to solve the actual problem, namely providing something to cater for people who want to raid the current 25 man content but feel they can't because there isn't enough interest in it.

Unpopular thing is unpopular. It's not an actual problem, is it?

[Marston]

And it's very very popular.

So erm - why not just carry on with the LFR theme and nerf 25 mans on normal and HC mode until they are popular again?

What's the actual issue?

On the same logic, why not buff 10 man? Would have the same result, eh?

[Deleted]

On the same logic, why not buff 10 man? Would have the same result, eh?

Well, no, because then the sheer difficulty of it starts to exclude lots of people. Yes, 25 would be relatively more popular, but raiding in general as a whole would become less popular. Not a good result.

[Marston]

But simply buffing or nerfing one the raidsizes is definitly not the way to go. We have 3 difficulties with LFR, 10/25 man normal and 10/25 man heroic.

Also, as we already have LFR, do you really think 25 man would become so much more popular? Also, if they would nerf the difficulty, Blizzard would probably also reduce the item level, resulting in a reversed WotLK situation.

[Raelbo]

But that's what you wanted.....

It's pretty clear to me that that is NOT what he wanted. He wanted people to raid in the format they wanted without gear or difficulty being part of the consideration.

...and that's what a lot of people o the thread want to happen. 10 man will be seen as the progression, hardmode standard that the elite chase world firsts on, everyone else will be having fun in 25 mans, just like the OP desires.....what's the actual issue?

The OP does not desire that. No one on this thread really wants that. Are you actually serious or just trying to play devil's advocate for the sake of it?

Ok, so you think there is no reason to do anything for 25 mans. Fair enough.

Again, I don't think Talen ever said that. The reason people should be doing 25 mans is because they enjoy the format. It's that simple. If people are doing either format for "easier" gear, then the system isn't working as intended. 10 man isn't more popular because it's easier. It is, by design, the same difficulty. It's simply more fun because of all the logistic issues surrounding 25 man raiding that make it less fun.