How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[IxilaFA]

Yeah but with that logic why not just nerf the 10man content so you'll have LFR which is ridiculously easy, 10man which would be very easy, and then 25 man. So all the "pro" 10 man people would want to do the "hardest" content which would be 25 man at that point = 25 become more popular, yey! Eh?

I don't see any point in any nerfing in any content, I am totally against all nerfing of heroic modes especially. And I have no problem with this 10/25 thing as it is, the only thing I'd be totally over the moon for would be to bring back separate raidlockouts. There was soo much to do in Wotlk, was awesome being to do a mainraid on your main, then still do a fun other raid later on with friends or w/e whenever.

I don't think 25 mans need any "special incentives" to be done, if you love it you do it. It sucks if you're stuck on a lowpop realm but hey you can always transfer, even tho that may suck. I run a 25 man guild atm, it's a bunch of work but it's worth it. If I enjoyed 10mans, I'd do them, but I don't (other than for altraiding, although I still prefer 25 man altraids).

Your logic just...does not make any sense. We are saying to nerf 25-mans so that they become more attractive. If you nerf 25-mans and 10-mans at the same time then nothing changes.

But it completely misses the point because it fails to fix the problem at hand...

The problem at hand is that 25-mans are harder to assemble, but are the same difficulty as 10-man and offer the same rewards. Thus 10-mans are the best option for people not willing to deal with the logistical hassle of getting 15 more people. If you make the difficulty of 25-mans substantially easier compared to 10-mans, then people would be more willing to deal with the logistics of raiding with more people, because bosses would die a lot easier and loot would be gained a lot faster.

Why would anyone want this? We have NORMAL modes for the average crowd, and HEROIC modes for the elite crowd. Why complicate matters by tying raid size to the difficulty quotient?

Can't you see the possibilities that arise from separating the difficulty of 10-man and 25-man raiding? Right now Blizzard tries to make both sizes equal in difficulty, which is nearly impossible to the fact that having 15 more people just makes things very different. So either 10-man ends up a lot easier, or a lot harder. If instead Blizzard was to focus on making 10-man the top of the hill as it were, then they could switch up mechanics and make them specific for a 10-man raid.

BTW, if you believe that the average crowd doesn't raid heroics then you're mistaken. My guild is pretty much the definition of average, and we always enter each tier with the intention of making it to the last boss on heroic. Heroics have become so nerfed and watered down that they're just slightly harder versions of Normal mode.

The OP does not desire that. No one on this thread really wants that. Are you actually serious or just trying to play devil's advocate for the sake of it?

How can you say whether people really want it or not? The OP put forth suggestions on giving a proper incentive for 25-mans. There are two people at least in this thread that have argued for 25-mans being nerfed and 10-man becoming the new Hardmode standard.

But simply buffing or nerfing one the raidsizes is definitly not the way to go. We have 3 difficulties with LFR, 10/25 man normal and 10/25 man heroic.

Also, as we already have LFR, do you really think 25 man would become so much more popular? Also, if they would nerf the difficulty, Blizzard would probably also reduce the item level, resulting in a reversed WotLK situation.

I don't see that happening at all. LFR is markedly lower because it's so ridiculously easy. We're not suggesting that 25-mans become LFR difficulty. They should just be easier to defeat because the logistics hassle in itself is part of the challenge. You would still need to pay attention for 6 minutes and follow a strategy.

[Deleted]

But simply buffing or nerfing one the raidsizes is definitly not the way to go. We have 3 difficulties with LFR, 10/25 man normal and 10/25 man heroic.

Also, as we already have LFR, do you really think 25 man would become so much more popular? Also, if they would nerf the difficulty, Blizzard would probably also reduce the item level, resulting in a reversed WotLK situation.

Just put normal level gear in LFR level difficulty. Hey presto, 25 mans will be more or less the only thing that's run.

[Deleted]

Your logic just...does not make any sense. We are saying to nerf 25-mans so that they become more attractive. If you nerf 25-mans and 10-mans at the same time then nothing changes.

Please do re-read my post, I didn't say anything about nerfing 25 man, I said you might as well nerf 10mans. Then 25 would become more popular as it would be harder and all the "pros" from the 10mans would wanna do the then "harder" content. Same logic. Which is stupid in the first place. And no this logic makes no sense as does not nerfing 25 mans. Nothing should be nerfed, like I said.

[Oxyra]

Just put normal level gear in LFR level difficulty. Hey presto, 25 mans will be more or less the only thing that's run.

Whenever I read things you say, I just can't comprehend what is possibly going through your head except... 10man elitism.
It's like, the complete opposite of what everyone generally thinks. Hey, it's the 25mans being elitist!
JK it's the 10mans.

[Raelbo]

You are talking about maybe a few thousand people. They don't matter compared to everyone else. At all.

Again, I tried to explain this earlier, which you clearly just ignored.

It would be exceptionally stupid to just ignore any minority group. As soon as you start "sacrificing" minorities, it starts a rapid descent along a path where very soon your "majority" consists of 2 people....

25 man raiding adds a certain amount of glamour to the game. As a raiding format it's big, it's flashy, it draws crowds and generates interest in the game. This is good for the game as a whole. The fact that a relatively small fraction of the community partakes in it is irrelevant.

Unpopular thing is unpopular. It's not an actual problem, is it?

If the format is so unpopular that people refuse to play it, then sure, let it die. But the fact that this thread exists indicates that there is interest in this format, which IMO means there is value in keeping it - just not at the expense of another format that people are happy with. Understand?

[Deleted]

Whenever I read things you say, I just can't comprehend what is possibly going through your head except... 10man elitism.
It's like, the complete opposite of what everyone generally thinks. Hey, it's the 25mans being elitist!
JK it's the 10mans.

All I have done is solve the problem in one swift move in a way that won't disturb ten mans one jot.

Don't thank me or anything though....

[Oxyra]

All I have done is solve the problem in one swift move in a way that won't disturb ten mans one jot.

Don't thank me or anything though....

Won't disturb 10mans.
K.

---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 10:35 PM ----------

You know what else won't disturb 10mans?
Anything that 25mans do.
At all.

[Deleted]

Again, I tried to explain this earlier, which you clearly just ignored.

It would be exceptionally stupid to just ignore any minority group. As soon as you start "sacrificing" minorities, it starts a rapid descent along a path where very soon your "majority" consists of 2 people....

Makes no sense whatsoever.

25 man raiding adds a certain amount of glamour to the game. As a raiding format it's big, it's flashy, it draws crowds and generates interest in the game. This is good for the game as a whole. The fact that a relatively small fraction of the community partakes in it is irrelevant.

None of this is true, outside of the uber hardcore raiders, no one cares much. I understand that the competition and ranking and all that is a prime motivator for the hardcore crowd but please understand - most people don't even know theres ranking system, le alone care about it. Maybe they will see the frontpage of MMO champ if they are really, really super keen but otherwise, nope.

If the format is so unpopular that people refuse to play it, then sure, let it die. But the fact that this thread exists indicates that there is interest in this format, which IMO means there is value in keeping it - just not at the expense of another format that people are happy with. Understand?

Minority interest on a specialist forum. Back in wow ,oads of people are playing LFR and hardly anyone is doing 25 mans. The data is clear.

[Granyala]

The OP does not desire that. No one on this thread really wants that. Are you actually serious or just trying to play devil's advocate for the sake of it?

He is trolling. It's painfully obvious.

Nerfing 25s would obliterate 10s, because peeps always go the path of least resistance, thats why 10s are so popular in the first place.

[Deleted]

He is trolling. It's painfully obvious.

Nerfing 25s would obliterate 10s, because peeps always go the path of least resistance, thats why 10s are so popular in the first place.

So your argument is that people don't care about raid size.

The current system is no problem then, surely?

[mitbrandir]

10 man requires just as much logistical effort as 25 man

[Nuckels]

10 man requires just as much logistical effort as 25 man

Care to eloborate? Cause last i checked as GM keeping track of a roster of 35+ took more effort.

[Granyala]

So your argument is that people don't care about raid size.

The current system is no problem then, surely?

The masses? They don't give a flying fuck about raid size or challenge. They want the best gear they can have for as little effort as possible. Hence LFRs popularity.
The current system is no problem in general, no.

It just sucks for the few individuals that actually like the "less loved format" but are dependent on support from the indifferent masses to retain enough raiders. That's why people want more incentive, to move these "don't care gimme loot" masses. No one says that all that love 10mans need to stop doing 10mans.

[Deleted]

Care to eloborate? Cause last i checked as GM keeping track of a roster of 35+ took more effort.

Agreed, but then again this shouldn't matter. And this is why 25 man guilds tend to have more officers than 10mans. Yes 25 mans take more effort to manage, but imo we really don't need any special incentive just on that basis. We like to do 25 mans, we can do 25 mans, should be enough.

I'm all for separate achievements with the 10/25 tags after them, nothing else. Or recolors of mounts, the titles might as well be the same since the bosses are the same anyways.

[Deleted]

The masses? They don't give a flying fuck about raid size or challenge. They want the best gear they can have for as little effort as possible. Hence LFRs popularity.
The current system is no problem in general, no.

It just sucks for the few individuals that actually like the "less loved format" but are dependent on support from the indifferent masses to retain enough raiders. That's why people want more incentive, to move these "don't care gimme loot" masses. No one says that all that love 10mans need to stop doing 10mans.

The only question that remains is "Do the mere handful who aren't all that happy at the moment matter?"

And the answer is "nope."

You might as well say that pet battles should be essential to get HC gear because hardcore pet battling needs a subsidy.

[Raelbo]

Makes no sense whatsoever.

Sigh. Ok. I suppose I can explain it laboriously:

Let's say you do something that pisses off 10% of the community. You don't care, because they are a small minority. So you lose that 10%.
Next, you do something that pisses off another minority group - again 10% of your community. You don't care because they are a small minority. So you lose that 10%.

Eventually you will land up with no community left. It's makes perfect sense. You just have to think it through.

None of this is true, outside of the uber hardcore raiders, no one cares much. I understand that the competition and ranking and all that is a prime motivator for the hardcore crowd but please understand - most people don't even know theres ranking system, le alone care about it. Maybe they will see the frontpage of MMO champ if they are really, really super keen but otherwise, nope.

You know about it. I know about it. Most of my friends playing WoW know about it, and most of my friends are total casuals (in the real sense of the word). It's not necessarily about how much people care so much as that it creates a kind of awareness of the brand. It's one of those basic principles of marketing.

Car manufacturers do a very similar thing when they produce "Halo" cars. Cars like a VW Golf GTI for example. Most VW drivers will never own or drive a GTI. Most won't have the first clue about any of the technical details of the car, but, everyone knows what a Golf GTI is, and it elevates the brand perception of VW as a whole. If VW stopped making GTIs they would lose sales across all their models because on some level the hype around their brand would be diminished.

How long do you think LFR or LFD would last if you took away the top 10% of players? I predict they would fail because it's raiders who, just by being around, help to make the system work.

It may not be immediately obvious to everyone, but don't underestimate the difference that the most passionate people make in any group.

Anyhow, you may choose to not believe me, but if you look at a lot of the stuff Blizzard do to support small, passionate groups of players, it's pretty clear that they are acutely aware of this.

---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 05:15 PM ----------

The only question that remains is "Do the mere handful who aren't all that happy at the moment matter?"

And the answer is "nope."

That is a very short sighted and thought deficient answer I'm afraid.[COLOR="red"]

[Ragetacular]

I raided 25s through cata.

I raid 10s now.

Theres no reason to reward 25 mans as it stands. Its not dying, its not fading away in the least.

[Deleted]

Sigh. Ok. I suppose I can explain it laboriously:

Let's say you do something that pisses off 10% of the community. You don't care, because they are a small minority. So you lose that 10%.
Next, you do something that pisses off another minority group - again 10% of your community. You don't care because they are a small minority. So you lose that 10%.

Eventually you will land up with no community left. It's makes perfect sense. You just have to think it through.

This isn't 10%. It's about half of a %. And it's about half of a % who will hardmode raid anything anyway, they always have. 40, 25, 10, 15 whatever. They just get on with it. I understand they no longer have a huge raft of people who are forced to join in their favoured pastime and that makes it harder for them to do, but that's a good thing, not a bad thing.

You know about it. I know about it. Most of my friends playing WoW know about it, and most of my friends are total casuals (in the real sense of the word). It's not necessarily about how much people care so much as that it creates a kind of awareness of the brand. It's one of those basic principles of marketing.

Car manufacturers do a very similar thing when they produce "Halo" cars. Cars like a VW Golf GTI for example. Most VW drivers will never own or drive a GTI. Most won't have the first clue about any of the technical details of the car, but, everyone knows what a Golf GTI is, and it elevates the brand perception of VW as a whole. If VW stopped making GTIs they would lose sales across all their models because on some level the hype around their brand would be diminished.

How long do you think LFR or LFD would last if you took away the top 10% of players? I predict they would fail because it's raiders who, just by being around, help to make the system work.

Not if you nerf the difficulty of raiding in general it won't.......buyt no. No marketing occurs because of blood legion or whoever. Simply doesnt happen. It might in some smaller games, but wow is primarily a "mommy buy me this" game on shelves at walmart.

It may not be immediately obvious to everyone, but don't underestimate the difference that the most passionate people make in any group.

Anyhow, you may choose to not believe me, but if you look at a lot of the stuff Blizzard do to support small, passionate groups of players, it's pretty clear that they are acutely aware of this.

I agree. it'd just be nice to see some gratitude from those favoured folks rather than the near constant turbine whine that they emit.

That is a very short sighted and thought deficient answer I'm afraid.[COLOR="red"]

Not really, no. 25 mans are currently not subsidised, apart from LFR and raiding is now at it's most popular ever.

Looks like a decent working model to me, that has sadly lead to some setbacks for a niche of players. Sad for them, but really, it's the bulk of folks who matter.

[Deleted]

Care to eloborate? Cause last i checked as GM keeping track of a roster of 35+ took more effort.

Scale maybe? In a 10m raiding guild you can/should have the GM also Raid Leader and Recruiter. In a 25m raiding guild often they are not the same person, hence due to the number. GM+2-3 officers and then maybe class or role leaders (DPS'er, healer).

Yet again this topic provides nothing as the majority of 25m raiders will want extra/free loot just because they are 25, 10m raiders don't understand the point of this topic and in between we get the 10m vs 25m comments.

I would call it the best troll topic out there at this moment and I doubt any idea anyone will express here will be taken into consideration and implemented into the game. Please keep the talk alive, im sure Blizzard cares about it...NOT.

The state it is now it's the best it's been in years, fair game in both 10/25, allowing you to play the game as and with who you want!

[Raelbo]

The masses? They don't give a flying fuck about raid size or challenge. They want the best gear they can have for as little effort as possible. Hence LFRs popularity.

I think that for this discussion, it would be fair enough to ignore the masses and consider just the raiding community.

Here I would say that by and large most are not fussed about raid size. They are there for the social interaction with a small group of friends, they like a challenge, and enjoy getting gear and other ingame rewards.

Which is largely why 25 man raiding is struggling.

It just sucks for the few individuals that actually like the "less loved format" but are dependent on support from the indifferent masses to retain enough raiders. That's why people want more incentive, to move these "don't care gimme loot" masses.

Agreed. Although I think these individuals are being a bit foolish. I don't think most raiders really want to land up with the "don't care gimme loot" crowd on their roster. If you are raider you really want to raid with other raiders. People who care and are committed (even if fairly casually) to raiding for the sake of fun

No one says that all that love 10mans need to stop doing 10mans.

Sadly many of this forum would happily sacrifice the enjoyment of 10 man raiders to get what they want...