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  1. #1

    How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

    I am just quoting myself from the EU forum (if someone would be so kind to post this on the US Forum I would be happy <3)

    I just finished reading the interview MMO-Champion had with Ion Hazzikostas. You can find it here:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...iew-BWC-Recaps

    That being said, this is the paragraph I am referring to:

    Q: More and more people seem to be losing interest in 25-man raiding, do you plan to make it a little more interesting in the future or are you happy with the current system?
    A: We love 25 player raiding. We also love 10 player raiding. We have people on the team that do both, depending on who they are. We aren't really satisfied with the state of 25 player raiding right now. Our goal when we made the raid changes at the start of Cataclysm that unified the 10 and 25 player lockouts was to let players choose the raid size that they preferred and make it a fair choice.

    At the time, we were responding to feedback from many players who preferred 10 player raiding and felt pressured to do 25s because they offered such better loot. The reality, something we failed to properly account for, is the logistical burdens of maintaining a 25 player roster. Those burdens are borne almost exclusively by the officers, raid leaders, and guild leaders of those groups. Those pressures are such that it tends to cause those groups to splinter into 10s. Before there was the carrot of 25s give you the best loot in the game, which was enough to get guilds to push through those stresses by recruiting more or making it work.

    Now it is easy to say, well, we only have 21 people on at raid time, let's just do 10 mans instead of cancelling the raid. Then you go down the road to transitioning to a 10 player guild. It isn't a reflection of what our players want, but what is simplest for the guild leadership. We are looking at trying to better incentivize 25s, recognizing that for it to be a fair choice, there needs to be something to compensate for that additional logistical burden.
    A suggestion I have:
    Let bosses in 25 man mode drop an additional chest. This chest contains randomly one or several of the following things:
    - Buff Food (several of the 300 one as of Mists)
    - Feasts (several)
    - Pattern and Recipies (only 1 and nothing else)
    - Trash Epics (only 1 and nothing else)
    - Potions (several)
    - Flasks (several)
    - Much Gold (Like 100-200 per raider)

    These are basically the things raiders need and have a high usage. You wipe, you need new food. You wiped for an hour, you need a new flask. You died several times you have to repair. You get the picture. This loot would allow the guild to reduce farming time or to give their raiders from time to time a chunk of potions/flasks/buff food. If additional loot drops it should be something from the trash as that is probably the loot most would be missing (because of the low drop chance).

    Yeah, pretty much this. I think flasks and food etc. would be the best way to reward the additional logistics. The loot is just another suggestion (and as said, nothing else would drop and it would be a random trash item).

    Thoughts on this?

  2. #2
    Nobody will care about trivial amounts of gold / mats that are dead cheap on AH anyway. It needs to be something unique and substantial or no dice.
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  3. #3
    I would say this would be a great start, as a 25 man raider, it would nice to have some extra compesantion for the raids, especially with a little bit of my guild's stinginess. 25 Mans are a dying breed, and I know would could push further in 10 man.

  4. #4
    This seems like an idea which could be tweaked to work.

    Also I will post this on US forum with credits going to you.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...28379?page=1#0
    Last edited by scadouche; 2012-11-18 at 11:37 PM.
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  5. #5
    More loot.
    Customizable loot as in 5 items out of 6 are still random but that 6th item you choose directly from the loot table.

    Because let's be honest, anything not related to loot would just not work anyway.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proteus View Post
    Nobody will care about trivial amounts of gold / mats that are dead cheap on AH anyway. It needs to be something unique and substantial or no dice.
    This.
    I wouldn't even care about 500g.

    But i like the idea of the Trash Drops dropping from bosses.

    25p just get one more random Trash Drop per Boss.
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  7. #7
    The Lightbringer thunderdragon2's Avatar
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    sorry 25 man feasts are easy to get
    the patterns/precipices already drop form 25 man and 10
    trash epics already drop form both 10 and 25 man
    mats for pots are dirt cheap
    flasks are even cheaper since 1 spirit of harmony= 3 golden lotus
    gold- loads of people have at least 100k for that wont interest them at all

  8. #8
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    Loot is already so much worse on 10 man than 25 man that if it isn't enough of an advantage yet for 25s, it's never going to be. On tier token dropping bosses, you get one token, and one piece of loot. In 7 months of farming H-DS in an hour every week, I never once got the mail agi boots off H-Hagara, and I was in for every kill against her.

  9. #9
    If by reward 25 mans for logistical effort you mean reward 25 man raid leaders who do the only increase in work for 25 mans then yes I agree with you. If you mean to reward the players who don't do any extra work (everyone but the raid lead) then no I am not agreeing with you.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    More loot.
    Customizable loot as in 5 items out of 6 are still random but that 6th item you choose directly from the loot table.

    Because let's be honest, anything not related to loot would just not work anyway.
    I roll 10 man, but I'd agree with letting 25 mans have a 6th piece of gear that they can choose themselves.

  11. #11
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Offering a reward kinda seems like saying "There are two raid formats, we consider one superior and bribe you to do it".

    I don't understand why people keep insisting that 25 man raiding must be "saved". We are talking about a game, a hobby, a nice way to pass the time. Play it as you like it. Apparently of the world best 20 guilds, the majority thinks 25 man work better. Beyond that, more and more favor 10 mans.
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    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  12. #12
    As said, it's an idea.

    But just adding more drops wouldn't be a good idea either. And the stuff I mentioned would at least help the raid somehow, even if it would only mean you don't have to go and farm mats for additional feasts for the next week.

    Do you have any other ideas? The one with the choosable loot from the loottable is at least something unique - but if it only has a chance, would it be enough? With bad RNG you would never see it drop. If it would be a guaranteed drop it wouldn't be so "special" anymore.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    If by reward 25 mans for logistical effort you mean reward 25 man raid leaders who do the only increase in work for 25 mans then yes I agree with you. If you mean to reward the players who don't do any extra work (everyone but the raid lead) then no I am not agreeing with you.
    Well yes, a lot of the onus is on the raid leader(s), can't disagree with you there. But there is also the patience of the raiders that should be rewarded. Currently, I could easily leave the 25m I just joined for a 10m for much better progression, but I'm trying to be patient and wait it out until we get more consistent players. This is half the reason 25s are so difficult to get going these days. You get ~15 good players and by the time you find 10 more, 7 of the original have moved on out of impatience. Separate lockouts should be the way to go in my opinion, but with the same level of gear. This way, those who want to run 10s are not obligated to run 25s but you increase the amount of people available for 25s.

    Of course, this has the drawback of making people run again to get another shot at gear, but I feel it would be less pressing than if 25s dropped better gear. If anyone can come up with an incentive for 25s that doesn't have drawbacks, I'd be impressed.

  14. #14
    How about stuff like:
    - Less run time from death to boss in 25
    - Easier repair options in 25
    - Summons/teleports to 25 raids (i dunno how this would work)
    - easy reforging access or reagents in 25

    Ie. easier logistics related to 25 to make up for the logistics needed to get 25 ppl together.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Proteus View Post
    Nobody will care about trivial amounts of gold / mats that are dead cheap on AH anyway. It needs to be something unique and substantial or no dice.
    I agree completely.

    But I like the concept of an additional chest. It could (have a chance) to contain unique stat-less transmog-gear, or a mount.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Loot is already so much worse on 10 man than 25 man that if it isn't enough of an advantage yet for 25s, it's never going to be. On tier token dropping bosses, you get one token, and one piece of loot. In 7 months of farming H-DS in an hour every week, I never once got the mail agi boots off H-Hagara, and I was in for every kill against her.
    Do 25 then :P. Since loot is so great and drops so easily.

    On topic:

    I think that mr Lead Encounter Designer is not 100% honest about implying that they weren't expecting this to happen.

    Easier Path -----> All go for it.
    They implemented RDF years before, they must have noticed that nobody or like 5% of people were left doing heroic dungeons "the old fashioned way".

    And when they announced those horrible changes there is no way to have missed like few hundred posts telling them EXCACTLY what will happen if they go through with them.

    Now if they re going to do smt?
    They re doomed if they will they re doomed if they wont.
    No matter what will decide to do now there will be consequences.
    1) Leave things as they are----> see more people abandoning raids and just do LFR till they drop dead and discontinue from boredom.
    2) Change things to make 25s viable -----> Enjoy the angry mob, no offence 10 man lovers that will start yelling "unfair!!!"
    3) Delete both and make one size ---->have the fanatics of both sizes yelling, although this would have been the best thing for the majority of the raiding player base.

    That is what you get when you come with ideas how to make smt that is working just fine, to "work better".

    I don't feel any sympathy for those people.
    They screwed raiding for so many people from the begining of cataclysm, that i feel numbed both about the game and the company that runs it.

  17. #17
    or just scrap all those and throw in 2 items + additional token

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    Well yes, a lot of the onus is on the raid leader(s), can't disagree with you there. But there is also the patience of the raiders that should be rewarded. Currently, I could easily leave the 25m I just joined for a 10m for much better progression, but I'm trying to be patient and wait it out until we get more consistent players. This is half the reason 25s are so difficult to get going these days. You get ~15 good players and by the time you find 10 more, 7 of the original have moved on out of impatience. Separate lockouts should be the way to go in my opinion, but with the same level of gear. This way, those who want to run 10s are not obligated to run 25s but you increase the amount of people available for 25s.

    Of course, this has the drawback of making people run again to get another shot at gear, but I feel it would be less pressing than if 25s dropped better gear. If anyone can come up with an incentive for 25s that doesn't have drawbacks, I'd be impressed.
    So you want to be rewarded for having patience? Not because you did anything extra but just because you can wait? Next time I have to go to the DMV I expect them to throw me a parade then for the amount of waiting that I've had to do.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Proteus View Post
    Nobody will care about trivial amounts of gold / mats that are dead cheap on AH anyway. It needs to be something unique and substantial or no dice.
    Pretty much this.

  20. #20
    Well, it might not seem like much, but...

    With the new ilvl upgrades through valor coming in 5.1, 10mans could drop the current standard item (496 / 509), and 25's could drop the fully upgraded equivalent (504/517). What it would mean is that as a payoff for the extra logistical work of running 25man, you get to avoid the extra work of needing to chain cap valor with dailies every week.

    10's would still get equal quality loot, but would need the extra step.

    Just a random thought that came into my head, might be terrible.

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