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  1. #41
    Legendary! Sigma's Avatar
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    Extra Pieces of loot is not going to help 25 mans become on equal standing with 10 mans in popularity or desire to raid, and you know why not ?
    Because the same stuff drops in the same instance in 10 mans. The majority of people will take the route of least resistance.

    Why should someone join a 25 man raid, when they can get the exact same loot in a 10 man guild and probably get it quicker due to less people rolling on on items, or above them in what ever priority system is employed by the guild ?

    There is only one real solution to the situation besides changing format to a 15 man size. That is go back to the WOTLK style of set ups.
    No its not ideal due to many guilds feeling like they are forced to go to 25 man for better gear but it worked, there was a good amount of both 10 and 25 man guilds.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Offering a reward kinda seems like saying "There are two raid formats, we consider one superior and bribe you to do it".

    I don't understand why people keep insisting that 25 man raiding must be "saved". We are talking about a game, a hobby, a nice way to pass the time. Play it as you like it. Apparently of the world best 20 guilds, the majority thinks 25 man work better. Beyond that, more and more favor 10 mans.
    This is exactly what I think as well.

    Rewarding with extra loot just means 25s progress faster (they already do, due to more loot = less RNG victims).
    The only reward should be the epic feeling of accomplishing something as a big group of pepole. If you lead it, the reward is even bigger. I still miss that feeling.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Offering a reward kinda seems like saying "There are two raid formats, we consider one superior and bribe you to do it".

    I don't understand why people keep insisting that 25 man raiding must be "saved". We are talking about a game, a hobby, a nice way to pass the time. Play it as you like it. Apparently of the world best 20 guilds, the majority thinks 25 man work better. Beyond that, more and more favor 10 mans.
    I don't think that they really consider it superior. The problem is that 25 man raids are practically obsolete now, and likely to be in worse shape as time goes on, unless Blizzard intervenes. As it stands, there are a lot of external pressures that undermine people's aspirations to run 25-man raiding guilds. We know there is a segment of the player base that would like to run 25s but can't, and, for whatever reason, Blizzard seems to want to address that concern. Seems like a smart move...then they can say they listen to player feedback, all the while dodging complaints about CRZ and daily quests.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    But that itself causes its own problems - having one raid setting giving better rewards than the other screws over people who don't/aren't able to do it. If they share lockouts it pisses on 10man guilds, likely forcing people to leave their guilds and join 25man guilds instead, even if they dont like 25s. If they dont share lockouts it still pisses on 10man guilds because they will feel compelled to pug 25s or be left behind in the dirt.
    Better gear from 25 mans would also mean that 25 mans are tuned to be similarily harder in dps requirements etc which means it would be hard to go from a 10 man guild to a 25 man guild considering all your gear would be lower item level and you might suddenly be undergeared for the content while it would be easy to go from a 25 raid to a 10 man raid. So this change would not necessarily encourage people to switch to 25 man raiding.

  5. #45
    how about 10 mans drop a ground mount and 25's drop a flying?

  6. #46
    The person who suggested that 25's will drop upgraded gear was on the right track, but 2/2 upgrade levels off the boss would be too powerful IMO. Have 25 man boss drops (ALL the loot they drop) be 1/2 upgraded already. 25 mans still have to do stuff for valor, 10 mans just have to do a bit more stuff for valor. I feel that the effort put in between the two raid formats, and the eventual reward at the end(that is, having 2/2 gear), would be very balanced in this scenario. If 10 man raiders complain, they could either join a 25 man, or suck it up and run that extra dungeon or two.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    But that itself causes its own problems - having one raid setting giving better rewards than the other screws over people who don't/aren't able to do it. If they share lockouts it pisses on 10man guilds, likely forcing people to leave their guilds and join 25man guilds instead, even if they dont like 25s. If they dont share lockouts it still pisses on 10man guilds because they will feel compelled to pug 25s or be left behind in the dirt.
    They've already pissed on 25 man guilds, forcing people to leave their guilds and join 10 man guilds instead, even if they don't like 10s.

    I don't wish that on 10 mans, but I really want something to be done to make 25 man raiding popular again. I haven't yet seen any suggestions that I could imagine working though, and I honestly doubt that they'll be able to fix things now. They've already made the mistakes, and trying to undo them would just leave a new load of people feeling shafted and hard done to.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by stuntz View Post
    Well, it might not seem like much, but...

    With the new ilvl upgrades through valor coming in 5.1, 10mans could drop the current standard item (496 / 509), and 25's could drop the fully upgraded equivalent (504/517). What it would mean is that as a payoff for the extra logistical work of running 25man, you get to avoid the extra work of needing to chain cap valor with dailies every week.

    10's would still get equal quality loot, but would need the extra step.

    Just a random thought that came into my head, might be terrible.
    As a 10 man raider, I think this is a good idea. With the new staggered upgrades available through Valor Points, I wouldn't mind that 25 mans would get their fully upgraded versions sooner, as eventually, that would be available to us as well.

    They staggered our Legendary component acquisition time, it only makes sense they would stagger something like this as well. Post this on the official forums, or I may take credit for your idea! =)

  9. #49
    The way to make 25m raiding popular again is bringing back the old raid system.

    1) Double lockout per week (25 and 10man)
    2) Seperate raid achievements into 25 and 10man again (including meta's).
    3) Make 25man drop half a raid tier higher gear on every difficulty besides lfr (not too big advantage but still a minor one).

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Siggma View Post
    Extra Pieces of loot is not going to help 25 mans become on equal standing with 10 mans in popularity or desire to raid, and you know why not ?
    Because the same stuff drops in the same instance in 10 mans. The majority of people will take the route of least resistance.

    Why should someone join a 25 man raid, when they can get the exact same loot in a 10 man guild and probably get it quicker due to less people rolling on on items, or above them in what ever priority system is employed by the guild ?

    There is only one real solution to the situation besides changing format to a 15 man size. That is go back to the WOTLK style of set ups.
    No its not ideal due to many guilds feeling like they are forced to go to 25 man for better gear but it worked, there was a good amount of both 10 and 25 man guilds.
    Implementing that now would just piss off people who prefer 10 man raiding because they had a taste of equality. There would be significant backlash, probably worse backlash than moving to 15 mans because 10 mans usually have a couple of backup raiders and they can transition to 15 but they cannot do the same transition for 25s.

  11. #51
    personally, i think they should just get rid of 10's and 25's and go to just one 15man.

    having raided both, here's my thoughts:

    10mans:
    too unforgiving. if everyone is average skill, just 1 person not performing can wipe the group.
    vent is not as entertaining.
    melee has a hard time finding a roster or pug spot.
    can create "bring the class not the player" situations (healing cd's, burst dps, aoe dps, buffs...etc).
    is logistically easier for leadership to manage.

    25mans:
    too forgiving. you can have a couple brain-deads and a few scrubs and still beat most encounters.
    vent is lively.
    good balance of melee and range dps, but also more competition.
    is harder logistically for leadership to manage.

    15mans:
    2x tanks, 4x healers, 9x dps (4 melee, 5 range). a pretty good mix i'd say; especially heals and dps. melee shouldn't be shafted as much either.
    frees up resources at blizz since they would only have to focus on one raid size.
    shouldn't be much harder to manage logistically than 10's and tons more easier than 25's.
    only going off on pvp size for AB, EotS and SSM (15man BGs) the feel is a lot more epic than 10mans.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Rickmagnus View Post
    I hope to god they do not institute seperate lock outs. If they do then it would be simply a matter of rewarding those who can do 25s and punishing people who cannot. Seen all the rage about being "forced" to do dailies? Times that by about 100 and you'd see why its a bad idea. I really dont see why its a big deal, either you have officers/leaders who really want to do 25s and are commited to finding like minded raiders or you don't. I don't really think they should just keep throwing bonus prizes at 25s until people do them because its a fine line between wanting to do them and needing to (even if the need is only in your head). Not to mention they've said its mostly the organizers who shoulder the burden of making a 25..how do you reward them but leave others who didnt do anything out?
    Yes but in an MMO, it is not all about skill, it is also about how much time you put in, plain and simple. You won't need to do 25s to get the best gear available. My concern is the amount of time spent by developers to ensure 10 and 25 modes are approximately balanced. If Blizzard doesn't want to give an incentive to 25 because they don't see any way to not "hurt" 10, then scrap 25m.

    The problem is, you give 25m another boost and the QQ from 10s will explode.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    The problem is, you give 25m another boost and the QQ from 10s will explode.
    What was the boost that i missed and now they are about to give 25s "another"?
    More items per person was there in previous tiers as well, but only in heroic. Also more valors were also there and then they removed it.

    It is not that i dont agree with your conclusion, especially because these were just bandaids, and not actual boosts. If a real boost is given then yep those that are fanatics about 10 man size, a size that many forget that it was introduced "for people that have less time or they dont wanna go through the extra hassle", would explode indeed.

    Remind you of smt? LFR for instance?
    That was the purpose of the 10 man and quite rightfully so. And because the fights were still requiring skill and coordination, i dare say that i much preferred the way things used to be that the current system that we have to chose the one or the other and mindlessly grind LFR on the side.

  14. #54
    Here's the thing:

    1) The difficulty of managing 25 people both in terms of attendance and performance naturally encourages people to raid 10m instead of 25m.

    2) The artificial tuning and gearing differential between 10m and 25m in Wrath meant that everyone was "forced" to raid 25m if they wanted to raid for real.

    Blizzard's intention is that you can raid either 10m or 25m as you prefer and not feel forced to do either (and I agree with that). Obviously anything like case 2) completely ruins that because if 25m is tuned higher and/or drops better loot everyone will feel compelled to do 25m.

    Personally, I don't think the current situation is really a problem, who cares what percentage raid 10 versus 25? If 90% of people want to raid 10m then let them. There's no REASON to keep the proportions artificially equal. And my raid team is 25m.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proteus View Post
    Nobody will care about trivial amounts of gold / mats that are dead cheap on AH anyway. It needs to be something unique and substantial or no dice.
    And if it's something unique and substantial aren't we back in Wotlk territory where 10m raiders are forced to raid 25?
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  15. #55
    How about, instead of giving 25-man raiders free food/flasks/pots for killing bosses, just have 25-man raids provide an aura that provides those things for everyone in the raid. In other words, you don't need to bring flasks, food or pots to a 25-man raid. For potions, maybe put an NPC at the entrance that provides a conjured potion with unlimited uses that can only be used in the 25-man version of that raid.

    That provides an obvious and immediate benefit to all 25-man raiders: No more bringing your own consumables. No more farming mats for feasts, pots or flasks. No more spending gold on those things.

    The downside, of course, is how the market for consumables would be affected.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by mosely View Post
    The problem is that 25 man raids are practically obsolete now
    Why do people keep saying this? Among low-to-mid tier progression guilds and casuals, sure. Because if you're casual maintaining a 25m roster has always been a nightmare. But the top progression guilds in the world are still all 25m - except Paragon who went 10m because of their language policy (seriously imagine the recruitment issues if your guild required Finnish speakers!). The next highest 10m is currently ranked 20th. How is that obsolete?

    People need to remember that they speak for themselves and not for all players.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Here's the thing:.....


    .....Personally, I don't think the current situation is really a problem, who cares what percentage raid 10 versus 25? If 90% of people want to raid 10m then let them. There's no REASON to keep the proportions artificially equal. And my raid team is 25m.
    And what if not every body in that 90% wants to raid 10 man yet they do?
    Did it ever occured to you that MAYBE, that is why this discussion is going on for 2 YEARS?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    And what if not every body in that 90% wants to raid 10 man yet they do?
    Did it ever occured to you that MAYBE, that is why this discussion is going on for 2 YEARS?
    Join a 25m guild? They're constantly recruiting.

    Or there isn't a single recruiting 25m guild on your server? Then I can only assume that less than 25 people on your server feel the same way...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  19. #59
    The Lightbringer Mokoshne's Avatar
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    How is there anymore logistical effort for 25man raiding. 25 people have to show up but its still the same as having a 10man show up. It's the same thing just with more people. Isn't that a price you have to pay to raid at that size? Why should you be rewarded for doing the same thing?
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    How is there anymore logistical effort for 25man raiding. 25 people have to show up but its still the same as having a 10man show up. It's the same thing just with more people. Isn't that a price you have to pay to raid at that size? Why should you be rewarded for doing the same thing?
    organizing 25 people and organizing 10 people is not the same thing. This applies to anything you do in life as well.
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