How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

You have no data at all to support this claim, so I'd be careful if I were you.

Just like the people who think that they game has gone down the shitter since ten man raiding was introduced have no data to prove that the game would be better off without ten man raiding.

The only thing you actually can do, is release an Idea, let it run for 2-4 years and look at the results.

And the result of that experiment is that the playerbase in general prefers 10 man raiding, and that people that like 25 man raiding want extra stuff because they are special.

Look, I raided MC, BWL and AQ40 back in Classic, and 25 mans until Cataclysm came out. I've done my share of raiding 20+ hours a week in 25 man raids. At the end of Wrath, we decided to do ten man raiding. I don't really look back at 25 man raiding with nostalgia, it was fun - sure. But not fun enough to warrant the stress of being a raid leader (and I'm the kind of guy that gets made an officer), and I don't think that extra items would do anything to make me want to go back to that.

[Raptor With a Saber]

a letter in the mail saying you did it

[Granyala]

Just like the people who think that they game has gone down the shitter since ten man raiding was introduced have no data to prove that the game would be better off without ten man raiding.

Correct. But we would have less balancing issues and less class homogenization. We wouldn't have the situation of one format slowly dying. That's all that I meant with "less problems".

And the result of that experiment is that the playerbase in general prefers 10 man raiding, and that people that like 25 man raiding want extra stuff because they are special.

Not because they feel special, but because they see the playstyle they love dying. It's only natural that they search for ways to prevent that from happening, don't you think?

I agree though, screwing over the entire now established and happy 10man community is not the answer. Blizzard thinks so too, or they would have done it already.

[scadouche]

And the result of that experiment is that the playerbase in general prefers 10 man raiding, and that people that like 25 man raiding want extra stuff because they are special.

This is not quite true. Many people have no other option to run anything but 10 man due to the fact that half of the servers don't even have a player base to support 25 man raiding. Also, there are very few people who are willing to run a guild let alone run a guild for 25 man raiding. 10 man is tough to run, 25 is exponentially more difficult to run (from a leaders perspective). There are more personalities to deal with in 25 than 10.

I have no idea why you (and others) are straying off to another topic.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Not because they feel special, but because they see the playstyle they love dying. It's only natural that they search for ways to prevent that from happening, don't you think?

Totally fine with not wanting your favourite play-style to go bye-bye. But the things that people are demanding (extra items, better items, more gold, more VP, free flasks and food etc) are not, in my opinion, the way to go. The issues with running a 25 man raid don't happen ingame. They occur on your vent when you are trying to get the mouth-breathers to not stand still when they need to run. Or that one guy that goes AFK half-way through the raid. Or the people that are too lazy to sign up for raids, and tell you to simply rely on them to be there (they won't). Those are things that extra rewards in-game won't fix. You'll still have those guys in the raid, no matter how often you recruit new players. That is the problem that we faced as a 25 man raid. You can't fix the player's attitude to the game with "moar epix".

[Granyala]

I have no idea why you (and others) are straying off to another topic.

Sorry my bad.

To be honest: We are way past the point of no return now.
There is nothing we or Blizzard could do to incentivize 25man raiding w/o the 10man format either dying out or the 10man community being upset.

Blizzard should have done something after Tier 11 in Cata. They didn't, they saw the trend and did nothing, and now it's simply too late.

Those are things that extra rewards in-game won't fix. You'll still have those guys in the raid, no matter how often you recruit new players. That is the problem that we faced as a 25 man raid. You can't fix the player's attitude to the game with "moar epix".

I agree 100%. And the fact that we could have had this discussion back in T5 proves that epics are not the answer.

The ease of finding 9 competent and like minded individuals is what makes 10man so goddamn sexy, even to a die hard 25man fan like me.

[Punisher069]

I honestly I have no idea what blizz could do that won't throw 10 man back to what they were before cata.

[Odina]

Here is my answer to anyone that says that 10 and 25 are equal. Do the dps check. I have done both 10 and 25, and while some mechanics are harder on 10, 25s always has a higher personal DPS requirement. Meaning the avg dps required to kill the boss is higher on 25 than 10. If you want to convince me that they are the same then start there. Why does it take more avg dps to kill a boss on 25 than it does on 10?

I can't find the chart now, but someone made one awhile back that showed the difference and it was usually 15-20% higher for 25s.

... well lets see..

In 25's on avg you will always cover the complete buff and debuffs available to a raid. In 10's you may miss some of them ( for instance we do not have the haste buff in our 10 man group). As well on avg you will have more clss/specs that will come with an Execute ability thus the avg dps will shoot up on most fights by allot for 25's where it may be a slight bump for hte avg 10 man group. Toss in buffs like Skull banner where all the raid around it get a boost and the chances of having multiple warriors in a 25 man are much higher than a 10 man and the avg dps of the group goes up again. It's not just about having more peopel but more buffs sustained for a greater % of time. Three warriors in a 25 man is viable and there would be no problem there but 3 in a 10 man and you start to miss out on toomany buffs etc and alas this is where there is a large discrepancy in the avg dps a group can pump out because you cannot have the sustained buffs at the same %... 1 war tossing banner down in 10 mans will afect all the group for X time but in 25 mans 3 wars can keep the entire group buffed for triple that time at no detriment to the buffs/debuffs etc.

*using wars as an example that is what i'm most confortable with CD wise.

[ZakAtack]

10s is simply the path of least resistance, that's why most people flock to them. If Blizzard put out a 6man raid format, you'd see 10s die out probably, as it'd be easier to field 6 good players than 10.

[Kanadei]

10s is simply the path of least resistance, that's why most people flock to them. If Blizzard put out a 6man raid format, you'd see 10s die out probably, as it'd be easier to field 6 good players than 10.

Mordor is right. Let's petition Blizz for 6 man raiding.

[Deleted]

Yea 10 mans are obsolete, it is really unfair for people that have only 5 friends to have to take strangers in that spoil the "friendly" guild environment...

And i don't know, but if blizzard needs still 9 people to sign charter to form a guild that is completely descriminating for all those people in the game with 5 friends only!

[Deleted]

This is not quite true. Many people have no other option to run anything but 10 man due to the fact that half of the servers don't even have a player base to support 25 man raiding.

If those people really wanted to join a 25m raiding guild they'd find one, or even make their own. "But it cost moneh." Don't kid yourself. Even a poor student could go work 4 hrs at McDs to flip some burgers to pay for the realm transfer and have a blast of a time in WoW in a 25m raiding guild.

You'd see topics on MMOC "looking for a 25m raiding guild" all over the place. People would make their own forum called 25m raiding forever where all preferring 25m raiders would join some kind of cult and play together the only One, true difficulty. Heck, there would be entire realms popping up full with people who only raid 25m. The popularity of 10m would lower to a freezing point, or well it'd go down by 41%. Oh wait, we don't see such happen at all. Even though in T11 25m was easier, the popularity declined and kept declining.

Why? Laziness? You can say "path of least resistance" but if you really preferred 25m why keep playing a difficulty which you enjoy far less? Its a game after all, surely you'd play it the way you enjoy it most.

The more plausible explanation is that those people who claim they'd switch to 25m in reality have nostalgic feelings to 25m raiding, and also don't care too much about the difference between the two to bother returning to 25m. Giving those who put logistical effort more reward wouldn't change this except if it'd increase the popularity of that role allowing more platform for 25m raiders (this would require the problem being a lack of raid leadership willing to do 25m, but not raiders who want to really do 25m (!= saying they want to)). Giving all 25m raiders more reward which is unattainable in 10m would create an unfair advantage, and functions like an artificial carrot forcing players to play content in a raid size they actually do not prefer. A far more plausible explanation is also that people want to be herded.

To the people who say 6m raiding would be the way to go. Then we'd see right now raiders en masse switch from 10m/25m raiding to challenge modes, scenarios, and heroic dungeons because the content size is better. And how many tanks, DPS, and healers would 6m raiding have? The difference 5m (dungeon) and 6m (supposedly a raid) is far smaller than 6 versus 10; its more likely 6m dungeon would be viable. Which would be an extra DPS, which Blizz kinda has now because the tank also does appropriate damage due to vengeance changes. If you believe 6m raiding to be a viable option you're unable to see that the difference between finding 6 or 10 like minded players is far smaller than 10 versus 25 like minded players. The latter simply doesn't scale well. And remember like minded can go pretty far. Its not only skill related. You can also add to that the language barrier in Europe which doesn't scale well either, likely making 10m more popular there on the EU realms. Or even aspects like social background.

[Talen]

Im sure some of them prefer to do 10 mans

I'm sure many of them don't really care.

but I know for a fact that a lot of the guilds on my server (ironically the 4 best 10 man guilds on the server) wants to be 25 man. However if you ask these guilds if they would do it despite doing worse progress none of them would suddenly want to go 25 man and that is the real problem.

They prefer 25s? But when given the choice and ability to do so, they chose otherwise.

I would love to express my sympathy for them/but I can't, because I don't have any. They have a choice and they chose. So long as there are two raid sizes, if they value "progression", then they will always choose the smaller one because that allows them to skew the system in their favor more. That is their choice. Made of their own free will. Made for reasons of their own. Noone made them chose 10s. The only way to get them to choose otherwise woudl be to offer a better path for progression through 25s...ie a LOT more gear or better gear.

So....no. I don't actually see this as a problem.

EJL

[scadouche]

If those people really wanted to join a 25m raiding guild they'd find one, or even make their own.

I stopped reading right there. This is what the topic is about. Blizzard who has all the data sees that this is not possible right now with the situation they created.

I will now continue reading to see if you show some validity.

Edit: As expected you didn't bring anything logical to the table. Why bother posting if you can't grasp the topic at hand?

[kealoha]

And here comes the bullshit about 10 mans being harder again..

As opposed to the bullshit about 25m being harder

[Deleted]

@lolalola
I would hardly think that someone that does 10 aka is a firm follower of "the path of least resistance" is in position to critisize others for doing the same, even if they state that they prefer the other size.
As i said plenty of times, the fact that threads like those exist non stop, both in mmo champ and in wow forums EU and US, is evidence enough that there is a problem.

Blizzard devs couldnt have put it more clearly that indeed there is a problem, not because all raid 10, but because they raid 10 while they would prefer to raid 25s.

"...Then you go down the road to transitioning to a 10 player guild. It isn't a reflection of what our players want, but what is simplest for the guild leadership"

What else you need to get convinced?
You wanna claim that mr Hatzikostas is making baseless speculations without data? Would it be to his company interest to come out and state those things if it wasnt the truth?

So i would suggest not to try to twist the truth and to get ready to enjoy the upcoming changes with the rest of us

[Deleted]

@lolalola
I would hardly think that someone that does 10 aka is a firm follower of "the path of least resistance" is in position to critisize others for doing the same, even if they state that they prefer the other size.

Oh, and why is that?

As i said plenty of times, the fact that threads like those exist non stop, both in mmo champ and in wow forums EU and US, is evidence enough that there is a problem.

Blizzard devs couldnt have put it more clearly that indeed there is a problem, not because all raid 10, but because they raid 10 while they would prefer to raid 25s.

The only ones concerned with the path of least resistance is the raid leaders and management because the difficulty of 10m vs 25m is roughly equal (sometimes one is harder than the other). Apparently there are not enough people who are willing to raid lead and manage (should I say shepherd?) a 25m raiding guild for non-profit. All the time you hear those stories of people burning out on managing 25m raiding. Gee, what a surprise! It is because managing a group of 30+ people is an organizational nightmare. How can you stimulate those people for doing it? What kind of reward or incentive can you give them which is still fair to the rest of the playerbase? There's no such thing.

Alternatively, you can experiment with something larger than 10m but smaller than 25m because it'd have less of the organizational nightmare issue. Since 15m is pretty close to 10m, you cannibalize on that difficulty and 25m raiding guilds would split in 2 or run 2 teams, whereas 10m guilds will need a recruit a few or merge. All of this isn't a huge issue when a new expansion is deployed (= free time, grand gear reset, people coming and going anyway) although the size of the headhunting would be pretty funny.

You wanna claim that mr Hatzikostas is making baseless speculations without data? Would it be to his company interest to come out and state those things if it wasnt the truth?

Possibly. Daxx said something nice about data today, btw.

So i would suggest not to try to twist the truth and to get ready to enjoy the upcoming changes with the rest of us

From his comment we can conclude we don't even know if there are going to be changes, let alone what those are going to be. How can one look forward to something vague which isn't even sure it is coming? Be careful with false hope, you might become disappointed. In other words why do you assume 25m raiders and those playing 10m deep down preferring 25m would be happy with any change without knowing the details.

You get what you deserve. I say again, if you really want to save 25m raiding you need to put effort into saving it. Go walk the talk. Make some forum where you team up together for your 25m coming out, and ditch the 10m. We don't see that because those claiming they would switch to 25m are enjoying 10m enough to not warrant the required effort for the change. Else the effort would be worth it, and they'd go for it.

[Tiberria]

The easiest way to improve the logistics of 25 man raiding would be to allow 25 man current tier raids to be done cross-server but still restrict 10 man current tier raids. The biggest reason why 25 man raiding is dead on so many servers is that server populations have fallen to the point that there isn't a group of 25 people with the same scheduling availability/game goals to make it work. Open up cross realm 25 man raids, and suddenly getting the right fit becomes exponentially easier.

[Verain]

To be honest: We are way past the point of no return now.
There is nothing we or Blizzard could do to incentivize 25man raiding w/o the 10man format either dying out or the 10man community being upset.

Nailed it.

Blizzard should have done something after Tier 11 in Cata. They didn't, they saw the trend and did nothing, and now it's simply too late.

Blizzard would have to be convinced that switching back to 25s is better for the community, and how could they be convinced of that?

[Deleted]

Possibly. Daxx said something nice about data today, btw.

Another way to prove how far out of context you are.
You are linking me something about how they evaluate data to use it on a situation that the data IS EVALUATED and there are interviews and statements!

more specifically my favorite blue (/sarcasm off) said the following..

We know that raw data doesn't give us the whole story regarding why players are doing one thing or another in-game - we're always trying to fill in the context behind why players make the choices that they do. It's not enough to know that an activity or feature is popular, it's important to try to understand why.

But you fail to realize that here everything is evaluated and we have the CONCLUSIONS announced.
So what the blue is talking about, and regarding a different topic is IRRELEVANT!

Here are some of the results of their analysis like em or not.

"Overall, I'd say 25s have worked out to be harder. It's subjective for sure. I have seen a lot of 25s scale down to 10 and be able to beat a boss that stumped them."

It isn't a reflection of what our players want, but what is simplest for the guild leadership

So as you can see, you are out of context and off topic really.
Mabe you should post those links on a thread about CRZ, because here dear lolalola we are done

As for the rest of your drivel, there is nothing new. More cheap critisism from someone that will never do what he is advising others to do.

But dont worry, soon we will be raiding 25s again :P Start looking for subs for your empty slots!
It shouldnt be so hard, after all it is only 10 slots with you filling one already!
Especially when you are advising others to find 24 like minded people to raid 25s!
Easy busy, recruit recruit :P