How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Espe]

Heroic raiders still aren't relevent when talking about popularity issues.

Again, the title of this thread is How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort". It isn't about which is more popular or which is harder to execute (hands down 10m). This thread is about how to reward 25m raiders for finding the extra warm bodies they need to fill out their raids. My argument is that they already have enough incentives to justify finding those extra bodies.

Perhaps even too much, considering the lessened personal responsibility in execution. Check my sig for details.

[Deleted]

Heroic raiders still aren't relevent when talking about popularity issues.

If you want 25 man to be more popular, then the easiest way is to dumb them down to LFR level for normal level loot.

Not true, im a heroic raider but not a top end raider, my guild is about top 10% 25 man guilds. We have done 4 heroic bosses and we suffer from these issues aswell.

[Oxyra]

@Espe 10chars

You are reported for nitpicking a line to misslead people!

The extra effort is required only to find warm bodies.

The actual execution of fights are much, much harder on 10m. If you can't understand why the people who make this game and most of the playerbase agree with me, I guess you never will.

Your Sig mister, is a part of what the dev said and the discussion on the matter WAS LFR!!!

Here is the full thing so anyone can see what a fake, sorry excuse of a poster you are!

Q:The new LFR system you have in WoW now seems like a great way for people who dont have alot of time to donate to raiding guild environments a chance to see content that was most of the time closed to them, however I'm not a big fan of 25man raids. Is there any plans to add a 10man choice to the LFR system?
GhostCrawler: We think 25 works better for Raid Finder. The ratios of DPS to non DPS more matches the player population and there is less risk of getting an unviable group. In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.

So basically you snapshotted a part of the thing that Ghostcrawler said, while he was actually talking about FACEROLABLE content that you can 15 man!!!

GG, go hide in a cave or something!!!

And regarding what Ghostcrawler actually said regarding REAL difficulty you may read this to educate your self!

"Q: Sure, personal responsibility is high in 10 mans but its offset by logistics of organization and spacial requirements. I still think that you're looking at it fairly biased. Just as many 25 man players look down at 10 mans just the same
A: 10s do have more individual responsibility. 25s have more logistical problems. Overall, I'd say 25s have worked out to be harder. It's subjective for sure. I have seen a lot of 25s scale down to 10 and be able to beat a boss that stumped them."

What a joke really!!!

[Deleted]

I did both 10 and 25 heroic this tier and in previous tiers and I can tell you when our alts go to 10 man heroic it looks like a different world out there. Relaxed, stress free, less dps requirements, less responsibility raiding.

HC modes are irrelvent to popularity discussions.

We are talking about making 25 man raids occur for more people. HC raiders are a minority and not worth even mentioning in this context.

[Espe]

I did both 10 and 25 heroic this tier and in previous tiers and I can tell you when our alts go to 10 man heroic it looks like a different world out there.

And I have had the exact opposite experience. My raiders are pushed to their limit in 10m, but we can fill out the last few spots of a 25m pug and just coast through on our alts. And that should be no surprise to anyone as that is how the current game was designed.

[Deleted]

Yes, but the question was about logistics. Yes, it is clearly harder to get 25 people together than 10.

Once you step into that instance though... well, read my sig.

Couldn't have said it more clearly if I had designed the game myself

Its a load of crap, which I've already countered earlier this topic with numerous examples of how boss mechanics place the same amount of responsibility on every player in 25s. Yet you choose to ignore responding to that, because obviously it doesn't suit your point.

The only time the point has some truth in it, is on normal modes (and even then its debatable) and those matter even less than 10 mans.

[Heathy]

its funny that this whole problem with 25s being considered easy now simply because the loot reflects that, if 10s and 25s are both getting the same drops, the difficulty is going to be about on par, because lets face it you don't need the extra ilvl on your 25 loots if the tier your on or the next tier is balanced around that gear boost.

the 10 man guilds caused this problem, whining about wanting to be on equal footing with 25s, when lets face it, your 15 ppl short of being on equal footing so, why they made the changes to 25s based on the feelings of the 10manners is just /facepalm in and of itself.

quite fitting that they are killing off their bigger raids in the name of fairness and accessibility. ill take your fairness with a dash of accessibility get 10 ppl and just do 10mans, is what i would say if i was raiding right now.

[Deleted]

Not true, im a heroic raider but not a top end raider, my guild is about top 10% 25 man guilds. We have done 4 heroic bosses and we suffer from these issues aswell.

If you've done HC bosses at all this tier, you are in the top end of raiders.

I know guilds who still can't kill stone guards on normal with any consistency.

[Oxyra]

And I have had the exact opposite experience. My raiders are pushed to their limit in 10m, but we can fill out the last few spots of a 25m pug and just coast through on our alts. And that should be no surprise to anyone as that is how the current game was designed.

Link armory please. Ty.

[McTurbo]

well. we can now do cross ream dungeons/raids through friend invites.. how much longer till we can do cross realm guilds?

[Oxyra]

well. we can now do cross ream dungeons/raids through friend invites.. how much longer till we can do cross realm guilds?

Current content can't be done cross realm.

[Deleted]

Its a load of crap, which I've already countered earlier this topic with numerous examples of how boss mechanics place the same amount of responsibility on every player in 25s. Yet you choose to ignore responding to that, because obviously it doesn't suit your point.

The only time the point has some truth in it, is on normal modes (and even then its debatable) and those matter even less than 10 mans.

Normal modes are th only thing that matters when talking about popularity issues as that#s what most players will be doing.

Seriously, hardcore raiding is a niche activity within a niche activity within wow. Forget about it if you want to make 25 man more popular.

[Espe]

Link armory please. Ty.

The random whos highest progressed character is only 2/6 MV is asking for a link to MY armory... priceless.

I've made an effort to not reveal what characters I play and who I am in real life for a reason. You want to spew unverifiable garbage and jump on everything everyone else says? Get a clue.

In any case, my sig speaks for itself.

[McTurbo]

Its a load of crap, which I've already countered earlier this topic with numerous examples of how boss mechanics place the same amount of responsibility on every player in 25s. Yet you choose to ignore responding to that, because obviously it doesn't suit your point.

The only time the point has some truth in it, is on normal modes (and even then its debatable) and those matter even less than 10 mans.

because for the most part its not true.. while there are mechanics that require each individual to pay attention. the game is just flat out more forgiving in 25 mans rarely will you loose 1 or 2 people and fail an encounter.. try loosing 2 people in a 10 man.. its almost ALWAYS a wipe. as for your argument about heroic modes...your talking an extreme minority of an already small minority of players.. if you choose to do 25 man hard modes you do so with the understanding that its hard. for the broad larger group of wow players who mainly do normal modes with the occaional hard mode boss down.. 25 mans are flat out easier.

[Deleted]

The random whos highest progressed character is only 2/6 MV is asking for a link to MY armory... priceless.

I've made an effort to not reveal what characters I play and who I am in real life for a reason. You want to spew unverifiable garbage and jump on everything everyone else says? Get a clue.

In any case, my sig speaks for itself.

Your sig is cherry picking a statement about LFR, get a clue.

Also: avoidance... so much fun. At least tell us how much your awesome 10m has down.

[temp2021ph]

Nobody will care about trivial amounts of gold / mats that are dead cheap on AH anyway. It needs to be something unique and substantial or no dice.

spoken like a true DPS class, with that fck the rest attitude.

[Espe]

because for the most part its not true.. while there are mechanics that require each individual to pay attention. the game is just flat out more forgiving in 25 mans rarely will you loose 1 or 2 people and fail an encounter.. try loosing 2 people in a 10 man.. its almost ALWAYS a wipe. as for your argument about heroic modes...your talking an extreme minority of an already small minority of players.. if you choose to do 25 man hard modes you do so with the understanding that its hard. for the broad larger group of wow players who mainly do normal modes with the occaional hard mode boss down.. 25 mans are flat out easier.

All good points, but from what I have experienced 25hm is much, much easier than 10hm. That doesn't surprise me whatsoever though, considering that is how the current game was designed.

[Oxyra]

The random whos highest progressed character is only 2/6 MV is asking for a link to MY armory... priceless.

I've made an effort to not reveal what characters I play and who I am in real life for a reason. You want to spew unverifiable garbage and jump on everything everyone else says? Get a clue.

In any case, my sig speaks for itself.

Wait wait.. you're trying to call me out without showing us anything about you?
K, nice 1/6 normal modes you've got there.

[Espe]

Your sig is cherry picking

Please just re-read my sig. The question was about LFR, the answer was about 10 vs. 25 in general.

It could not be more clear, unless you just want to miss it.

[scadouche]

Stop feeding the troll who is attempting to derail the topic.