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  1. #681
    Brewmaster Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proteus View Post
    Your sig is cherry picking
    Please just re-read my sig. The question was about LFR, the answer was about 10 vs. 25 in general.

    It could not be more clear, unless you just want to miss it.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov

  2. #682
    Stop feeding the troll who is attempting to derail the topic.

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by Proteus View Post
    Nobody will care about trivial amounts of gold / mats that are dead cheap on AH anyway. It needs to be something unique and substantial or no dice.
    I would say that, I'm running a 25 man guild and find these suggestion rather brilliant as they aren't items that can tilt the community into saying that 25s now have a distinct advantage or anything. Like the nonsense we occasionally saw during Wrath

    The majority are very minor things that would (potentially) relieve 25s a slight amount of farming time which would be greatly appreciated in terms of overall investment throughout each reset, on the other hand without having read this entire thread.., I'm sure someone will raise the argument that 25s have more players to do these required chores and as such don't need the proposed lift, and rightly so I guess, but the sad truth is that there is always only a few that continuously pitch in in order to have a full stock for everyone. work, studies etc etc often being the prim culprit which I'm sure is the same for 10s on some occasions.

    Personally the only thing I'd say that was needed is separate achievements again with different mounts, titles for doing it on an up-scaled version, but keeping the loot tables as they are to avoid the cry from 10s feeling like the game is breaking.

    OP: I'd give your post a nice up vote on public forums if I was able to to, sadly I'll have to wait another 2 months before I can redo my appeal, lesson learned at least
    Last edited by Banzhe; 2012-11-20 at 05:38 PM.

  4. #684
    Brewmaster Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    Wait wait..
    All I'm saying is that my experience has matched up with what the WoW Devs have stated numerous times: 10m is harder to execute than 25m. I'm sorry that makes you so upset, but that is how the game is currently designed.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by McTurbo View Post
    because for the most part its not true.. while there are mechanics that require each individual to pay attention. the game is just flat out more forgiving in 25 mans rarely will you loose 1 or 2 people and fail an encounter.. try loosing 2 people in a 10 man.. its almost ALWAYS a wipe. as for your argument about heroic modes...your talking an extreme minority of an already small minority of players.. if you choose to do 25 man hard modes you do so with the understanding that its hard. for the broad larger group of wow players who mainly do normal modes with the occaional hard mode boss down.. 25 mans are flat out easier.
    LOL really? Losing 2 people on 10-man has the same probability as losing 5 on 25m given the chances someone fucks up is the same for everyone. You can't be serious about comparing it. And also, given progress raids, it IS very likely you will wipe the raid when someone dies due to enrage and/or lower healer mana. So in effect, 25m has a far larger chance of failing an attempt than 10m.

    In addition, tuning on nearly every 25m encounter is higher. Boss has higher damage abilities, tighter enrage timer and is more demanding in terms of space-management. Guess you didn't know (and yes, boo fucking hoo 25m has more raid cd's, guess what... those also require skill / coordination to use them correctly).

    To give you another example (repeating myself) about why everyone has responsibility on 25m: Guess what happens when someone stands in a wind bomb on 25m? Yes, you wipe. By 1 person's mistake/dc, just like on 10m. But the chance is 2,5x larger now isn't it?
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  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    All I'm saying is that my experience has matched up with what the WoW Devs have stated numerous times: 10m is harder to execute than 25m. I'm sorry that makes you so upset, but that is how the game is currently designed.
    And yet you can't bring to evidence anything to point it out, oh and nice cherry picking my experience after I voluntarily left a guild that's currently top 20 US because of University. But please, continue.

    You should probably check out the logs of my characters, you might find that I'm pretty good at what I do.

    You on the other hand, keep hiding behind your anonymity.

    By the way, nice trolling, I'm sure the mods will love all these reports coming in about your trolling and derailing of topics.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Please just re-read my sig. The question was about LFR, the answer was about 10 vs. 25 in general.

    It could not be more clear, unless you just want to miss it.
    Aww again the repeating of something that is untrue and completely out of context, you're so good at debating.

    Also, how much progress? Gonna keep avoiding that or will we get your 1/16HC character soon?
    Champion of the Naaru | Hand of A'dal | Twilight Vanquisher | the Astral Walker | the Light of Dawn | Dragonslayer | Firelord | Savior of Azeroth

  8. #688
    Scarab Lord Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proteus View Post
    LOL really? Losing 2 people on 10-man has the same probability as losing 5 on 25m given the chances someone fucks up is the same for everyone. You can't be serious about comparing it. And also, given progress raids, it IS very likely you will wipe the raid when someone dies due to enrage and/or lower healer mana. So in effect, 25m has a far larger chance of failing an attempt than 10m.

    In addition, tuning on nearly every 25m encounter is higher. Boss has higher damage abilities, tighter enrage timer and is more demanding in terms of space-management. Guess you didn't know (and yes, boo fucking hoo 25m has more raid cd's, guess what... those also require skill / coordination to use them correctly).

    To give you another example (repeating myself) about why everyone has responsibility on 25m: Guess what happens when someone stands in a wind bomb on 25m? Yes, you wipe. By 1 person's mistake/dc, just like on 10m. But the chance is 2,5x larger now isn't it?
    No, because theres still 25 people raiding.

    It does kindof irk me when people make a direct 10 - 25 man comparison. 25 man to 3 x 10 man is farier.
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  9. #689
    Brewmaster Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scadouche View Post
    Stop feeding the troll who is attempting to derail the topic.
    Sorry man, I will try to stop feeding him but I have a feeling he will just come back with more of his "25s deserve moar for less" trolling nonsense.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Again, the title of this thread is How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort". It isn't about which is more popular or which is harder to execute (hands down 10m). This thread is about how to reward 25m raiders for finding the extra warm bodies they need to fill out their raids. My argument is that they already have enough incentives to justify finding those extra bodies.

    Perhaps even too much, considering the lessened personal responsibility in execution. Check my sig for details.
    Having done both 10 and 25 your argument falls to the waistline, at present time MoP raids are designed for 10s and scaled up to 25 (which often accounts for unrealistic amounts of hp vs enrage timer vs room to manoeuvre on 25)
    Your sig and view point is so skewered and don't really belong in this thread mechano-duck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    All I'm saying is that my experience has matched up with what the WoW Devs have stated numerous times: 10m is harder to execute than 25m. I'm sorry that makes you so upset, but that is how the game is currently designed.
    That was true for Wrath and Cata (in some cases when raids was designed for 25 and down-scaled)
    Last edited by Banzhe; 2012-11-20 at 05:51 PM.

  11. #691
    Maybe I should post my cold hard statistics again.

    Oh and Espe, you might not know since you've been busy trolling, but I'm not saying 25s deserve any more, in fact I suggested 10man have a higher iLvl loot.
    But oh wai- you're too busy trolling.

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  12. #692
    Brewmaster Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    Oh and Espe, you might not know since you've been busy trolling
    Just because I disagree with you about 10 vs. 25 executional difficulty does not mean I'm trolling. The way you use that word, I'm not sure you know what it means. Again, from my personal experience 10m is much, much harder to execute than 25m, and that happens to match up with what the WoW Devs have stated over and over again. Makes sense.

    Also, again, I do think it takes more logistical (read: harder to get 25 players than 10 in the same place) coordination, but not enough to warrant any more rewards than 25m players already get.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Just because I disagree with you about 10 vs. 25 executional difficulty does not mean I'm trolling. The way you use that word, I'm not sure you know what it means. Again, from my personal experience 10m is much, much harder to execute than 25m, and that happens to match up with what the WoW Devs have stated over and over again. Makes sense.

    Also, again, I do think it takes more logistical (read: harder to get 25 players than 10 in the same place) coordination, but not enough to warrant any more rewards than 25m players already get.
    us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7178648110?page=1

    There's my stance on the topic.
    It has nothing to do with 25s getting more, half way through that post I suggest giving 10mans more loot actually.

  14. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Loot is already so much worse on 10 man than 25 man that if it isn't enough of an advantage yet for 25s, it's never going to be. On tier token dropping bosses, you get one token, and one piece of loot. In 7 months of farming H-DS in an hour every week, I never once got the mail agi boots off H-Hagara, and I was in for every kill against her.
    There's items on 25M that are the same. We had a hunter that got their bow off HC Madness on the last kill of the expansion and we killed HC Madness early (8 months of farming HC Madness).

  15. #695
    Quote Originally Posted by Proteus View Post
    LOL really? Losing 2 people on 10-man has the same probability as losing 5 on 25m given the chances someone fucks up is the same for everyone. You can't be serious about comparing it. And also, given progress raids, it IS very likely you will wipe the raid when someone dies due to enrage and/or lower healer mana. So in effect, 25m has a far larger chance of failing an attempt than 10m.

    In addition, tuning on nearly every 25m encounter is higher. Boss has higher damage abilities, tighter enrage timer and is more demanding in terms of space-management. Guess you didn't know (and yes, boo fucking hoo 25m has more raid cd's, guess what... those also require skill / coordination to use them correctly).

    To give you another example (repeating myself) about why everyone has responsibility on 25m: Guess what happens when someone stands in a wind bomb on 25m? Yes, you wipe. By 1 person's mistake/dc, just like on 10m. But the chance is 2,5x larger now isn't it?
    who's cherry picking now? ill stand and say confidently that that the vast majority of raiders care not one rats ass about heroic mode raiding beyond an occasional attempt on a boss thats already on farm. if your argument is strictly about heroic modes your yelling at the sky.. hello.. its pretty empty.. not a lot of people to talk to up there that will be available to argue back with you.

    Your arguing in a circle you want people to acknowledge your points but you want to scream back and be condescending when it comes to theirs. yes if your raid looses 5 people in a single event that's an issue and i acknowledge it and it will more than likly be a wipe. but at the same time you can recover from loosing 1 or 2 as you have 3 battlerez's i believe? i have 1 battle rez.. so if i loose one.. rez them then loose another. its almost always going to end up a wipe.. especially if its a healer or tank. i dare say that i might loose 2 and recover 1.. and might pull it off and might not depending on how soon.. but you can loose 6 and recover 3 and still have a good chance of winning.. i dont have that luxary in 10 mans. if you've got more than 8 people failing in 25 man to cause said wipe for you. that's a raid leader issue.

  16. #696
    Brewmaster Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    It has nothing to do with 25s getting more, half way through that post I suggest giving 10mans more loot actually.
    Yes, but you are suggesting that 10 man get different colors for gear sets or different mount drops, whatever. I totally disagree with that considering the fact that 10m are harder to actually execute. And once again, I think that 25m raiders are already rewarded for the slight logistical hardship they endure in order to raid.

    Yes, it is harder to get 25 people together, and for that hardship you get multiple battle rezes, more loot per person and a more forgiving raiding experience. I just don't see why you should be getting anything more than these things you already get. That is all I am saying, and I don't believe that opinion makes me a troll.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov

  17. #697
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Just because I disagree with you about 10 vs. 25 executional difficulty does not mean I'm trolling. The way you use that word, I'm not sure you know what it means. Again, from my personal experience 10m is much, much harder to execute than 25m, and that happens to match up with what the WoW Devs have stated over and over again. Makes sense.

    Also, again, I do think it takes more logistical (read: harder to get 25 players than 10 in the same place) coordination, but not enough to warrant any more rewards than 25m players already get.
    So you went from a shit 25 man to a shittier 10 man? Good for you. 10 is much much simpler to execute. Easier to wipe to, harder on the composition but execution? Haha, how does your assumption even make sense. Fewer people doing fewer things occupying less space.

  18. #698
    Fluffy Kitten Aciaedius's Avatar
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    Do keep it civil please, people.
    PvE:er to the bone. Plays a druid. Also plays DotA and a whole bunch of other stuff. Listens to mostly everything.
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  19. #699
    Just sounds like whiney entitlement. It's soooooo hard for me to manage this 25 man team that I think I deserve a special sticker to let people know how ace I am for doing all this work.

    If you don't like it, don't do them. The reason for doing any raid should be the enjoyment you get out of it. Again, if you think you are needing an extra incentive to do them, you shouldn't be in there.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Yes, but you are suggesting that 10 man get different colors for gear sets or different mount drops, whatever. I totally disagree with that considering the fact that 10m are harder to actually execute. And once again, I think that 25m raiders are already rewarded for the slight logistical hardship they endure in order to raid.

    Yes, it is harder to get 25 people together, and for that hardship you get multiple battle rezes, more loot per person and a more forgiving raiding experience. I just don't see why you should be getting anything more than these things you already get. That is all I am saying, and I don't believe that opinion makes me a troll.
    Wait wait wait. I'm suggesting different colours, how does that in any way insinuate that one colouration is better than the other.
    I'm suggesting both lockouts be available, both 10 and 25 have different sets colouration, 10man might have a cooler looking set in person A's opinion, and vice versa for person B.

    I never said anything about mounts.

    I'm saying we should get split lockouts back and have current tier cross realm raiding with reasonable restrictions to bring back 25man raiding as more people could experience it/find guilds appropriately without wasting their weekly lockout, all they'd be burning to try 25man runs would be a 25man lockout.

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