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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Yes, but you are suggesting that 10 man get different colors for gear sets or different mount drops, whatever. I totally disagree with that considering the fact that 10m are harder to actually execute. And once again, I think that 25m raiders are already rewarded for the slight logistical hardship they endure in order to raid.

    Yes, it is harder to get 25 people together, and for that hardship you get multiple battle rezes, more loot per person and a more forgiving raiding experience. I just don't see why you should be getting anything more than these things you already get. That is all I am saying, and I don't believe that opinion makes me a troll.
    Wait wait wait. I'm suggesting different colours, how does that in any way insinuate that one colouration is better than the other.
    I'm suggesting both lockouts be available, both 10 and 25 have different sets colouration, 10man might have a cooler looking set in person A's opinion, and vice versa for person B.

    I never said anything about mounts.

    I'm saying we should get split lockouts back and have current tier cross realm raiding with reasonable restrictions to bring back 25man raiding as more people could experience it/find guilds appropriately without wasting their weekly lockout, all they'd be burning to try 25man runs would be a 25man lockout.
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 587 Enh/573 Ele 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 14/14 HM SoO
    Oxyra - Semi-Main DK - 570 Blood 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 4/14 HM SoO
    Raiding with Fused - Illidan

  2. #702
    Mechagnome Dragore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    I'm saying we should get split lockouts back and have current tier cross realm raiding with reasonable restrictions to bring back 25man raiding as more people could experience it/find guilds appropriately without wasting their weekly lockout, all they'd be burning to try 25man runs would be a 25man lockout.
    It seems to me people are doing 10mans because its easy to manage less stressful on raid leaders/guilds. But so you think that we need to force them back to do 25mans? If people like doing 10mans more then 25mans, whats the wrong with that? You create double lock outs you will create another QQ fest of people saying they are forced to do A and B and forced to do C every day. 25mans should stay the same, as well as 10mans. 1 lock out. You decided what raid experience you want. If you guild decides to go to 10man and you want to raid in a 25man then find another guild that raids 25man.

  3. #703
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    I'm saying we should get split lockouts back and have current tier cross realm raiding with reasonable restrictions to bring back 25man raiding as more people could experience it/find guilds appropriately without wasting their weekly lockout, all they'd be burning to try 25man runs would be a 25man lockout.
    Again, I don't care what people find more visually pleasing, I don't agree with 10m and 25m gear looking different. Hardmode gear already looks different than normalmode gear, and I think that's fine how it is.

    I also disagree with unlinking the lockouts for 10 and 25. This was just a nightmare for progression guilds in WotLK, and that is the very reason the WoW Devs linked the two.

    On your suggestion of allowing current content to go cross-realm, I totally agree. I think there should be a cross-realm option for guilds as well.

    Did that really just happen... something we can actually agree on? Wonders never cease.
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    Totally cool with abortion in rape scenarios, but making it widely available or expecting employers to provide it incentivizes women to whore themselves out and creates a nuisance
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The reason many people are poor is because they DONT save any spare money they have. They blow it on things to entertain them or make them happy

  4. #704
    I would agree that they should split 10/25 man raiding. In wotlk you had so many options.

  5. #705
    i like your post oxyra. i agree with you on most of it.. bringing back split lockouts would be great and allow for more flexible raiding. i do remember having friends i raided with and helped in a 10 man while we were doing 25's in our guild. i agree that 25's should get more loot not better loot thats the reward faster gearing up for the headache of putting all those people together. both raids 10 and 25's have their moments where any particular encounter can be harder for one or the other so arguing about this is harder than that is really a waste of time. the community generally feels 25 mans are easier to raid but harder to manage. i agree with that.. so i also can see the need to give them more loot than a easier to manage but still difficult to raid 10 man.

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by stuntz View Post
    Well, it might not seem like much, but...

    With the new ilvl upgrades through valor coming in 5.1, 10mans could drop the current standard item (496 / 509), and 25's could drop the fully upgraded equivalent (504/517). What it would mean is that as a payoff for the extra logistical work of running 25man, you get to avoid the extra work of needing to chain cap valor with dailies every week.

    10's would still get equal quality loot, but would need the extra step.

    Just a random thought that came into my head, might be terrible.
    The first step to this is to split realm first into 10 man and 25 man. 10 mans getting to take realm first is bullsheet, and everyone knows it. The logistical input that goes into 25 mans requires their own Realm First, simply because a 10 man is more agile will in most cases eat the content faster. Realm and World firsts is a huge reason why guilds do 25 mans.

    In terms of actual incentive ingame. Honestly, give 25 man 3-6 ilvl higher than 10 man, or add special effects to 25 man, ie Challenge Modes. There is no denying it's harder to run a 25 man raiding guild, so why not make it that much easier to give the incentive to stick with it.

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragore View Post
    It seems to me people are doing 10mans because its easy to manage less stressful on raid leaders/guilds. But so you think that we need to force them back to do 25mans? If people like doing 10mans more then 25mans, whats the wrong with that? You create double lock outs you will create another QQ fest of people saying they are forced to do A and B and forced to do C every day. 25mans should stay the same, as well as 10mans. 1 lock out. You decided what raid experience you want. If you guild decides to go to 10man and you want to raid in a 25man then find another guild that raids 25man.
    You must have missed the entire thread talking about 25mans falling apart and people being unable to do them.

    Might wanna read back a bit.
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 587 Enh/573 Ele 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 14/14 HM SoO
    Oxyra - Semi-Main DK - 570 Blood 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 4/14 HM SoO
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  8. #708
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McTurbo View Post
    the community generally feels 25 mans are easier to raid but harder to manage. i agree with that.. so i also can see the need to give them more loot than a easier to manage but still difficult to raid 10 man.
    And that is exactly the system we have in place now. 25m raiders get more loot per person and an easier in-raid experience to make up for having to bring 25 people together in the first place. 10m raiders get less loot per person as well as fewer battle rezes and more personal executional responsibility to compensate for the fact that bringing 10 people together should be easier.

    The title of this thread is misleading because 25m raiders are already rewarded for getting those 25 people together.
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    Totally cool with abortion in rape scenarios, but making it widely available or expecting employers to provide it incentivizes women to whore themselves out and creates a nuisance
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The reason many people are poor is because they DONT save any spare money they have. They blow it on things to entertain them or make them happy

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by McTurbo View Post
    i like your post oxyra. i agree with you on most of it.. bringing back split lockouts would be great and allow for more flexible raiding. i do remember having friends i raided with and helped in a 10 man while we were doing 25's in our guild. i agree that 25's should get more loot not better loot thats the reward faster gearing up for the headache of putting all those people together. both raids 10 and 25's have their moments where any particular encounter can be harder for one or the other so arguing about this is harder than that is really a waste of time. the community generally feels 25 mans are easier to raid but harder to manage. i agree with that.. so i also can see the need to give them more loot than a easier to manage but still difficult to raid 10 man.
    They get more loot already.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdef View Post
    The first step to this is to split realm first into 10 man and 25 man. 10 mans getting to take realm first is bullsheet, and everyone knows it. The logistical input that goes into 25 mans requires their own Realm First, simply because a 10 man is more agile will in most cases eat the content faster. Realm and World firsts is a huge reason why guilds do 25 mans.

    In terms of actual incentive ingame. Honestly, give 25 man 3-6 ilvl higher than 10 man, or add special effects to 25 man, ie Challenge Modes. There is no denying it's harder to run a 25 man raiding guild, so why not make it that much easier to give the incentive to stick with it.
    Its already a little easier to gear in 25 mans. Any more unique rewards and 10 mans will be pigeonholed into doing 25s again like in Wrath.

    If 25 mans have a unique reward, it should be minor and something that can eventually be equal in 10 mans. This means no unique boss fights, no unique gear, or any of that.

    I kind of like the idea of allowing gear to be partially valor upgraded already, but I feel that the gear being that much stronger right away is a bit too much. Gear having three upgrade levels, and 25 mans getting the first one for free might be about right.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 06:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by svenforkbeard View Post
    They get more loot already.

    They don't get more loot, its just subject to less RNG thanks to a larger sample size and more class/spec variation.

  11. #711
    I'm not sure on your opinion, but my suggestion was to give 10mans higher iLvl loot and 25mans get say... two bonus upgrade tokens per boss that can be used on any loot in the current tier to upgrade it the 6 iLvls to the same as 10man.

    Maybe have say 25man pieces Unique as well, so you have to upgrade them and can't just run 10man to get your loots, or something of a similar sort.
    Some of the suggestions in the thread like unlocking both settings but not having loot available LFR style if you're already saved to one a) won't work, as you could sell 3 people all the gear they wanted in a 25man format or something, even though all your raiders are saved to 10man and the only 3 people available for loot get it all, etc. and b) remove any bonus from running both, which let's face it, this is an MMO designed to make you waste time on it, if you spend more time, you should get some kind of reward.

    And anyone who argues that they'll be forced to do this/that/the other, Blizzard has been telling you you're not forced to do anything with LFR and dailies, among other things, so why would they take a different stance to having split lockouts and not just tell people, you're not forced to do anything.
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 587 Enh/573 Ele 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 14/14 HM SoO
    Oxyra - Semi-Main DK - 570 Blood 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 4/14 HM SoO
    Raiding with Fused - Illidan

  12. #712
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdef View Post
    There is no denying it's harder to run a 25 man raiding guild
    Yes, there is denying, because it just isn't true.

    Is it harder to get 25 people together than 10? Yes, of course it is.

    Is it harder to execute 25m content than 10m? Absolutely not - in fact the way the current game is designed the opposite is true.

    25m gets more loot, more get-out-of-jail-free cards and less executional responsibility per person.

    Again, outside of the instance 25 is harder. Inside the instance is a completely different story.
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    Totally cool with abortion in rape scenarios, but making it widely available or expecting employers to provide it incentivizes women to whore themselves out and creates a nuisance
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The reason many people are poor is because they DONT save any spare money they have. They blow it on things to entertain them or make them happy

  13. #713
    Oh and different colouring of gear, I agree with personally because there's a lot of amazing looking tier sets in game that they never used. Blue Paladin Tier 12. Green DK Tier 11 to name two of them. Those sets look AMAZING. But they were never released and it's a shame.
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 587 Enh/573 Ele 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 14/14 HM SoO
    Oxyra - Semi-Main DK - 570 Blood 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 4/14 HM SoO
    Raiding with Fused - Illidan

  14. #714
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    And anyone who argues that they'll be forced to do this/that/the other, Blizzard has been telling you you're not forced to do anything with LFR and dailies, among other things, so why would they take a different stance to having split lockouts and not just tell people, you're not forced to do anything.
    This is actually really simple: because LFR and dailies are not that time consuming. Back in WotLK when there were no shared lockouts people felt the need to grind out the exact same content twice (or many, many more times with alts) every week, and that led to the largest exodus of the playerbase in any expansion.

    People weren't required to do it, but they definitely felt the need to in order to keep up in progression, and that definitely burned out a large portion of the raiding playerbase and made non-raiders never want to even attempt stepping up to the plate. LFR and dailies just don't even come close to the nightmare that was unlinked lockouts.
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    Totally cool with abortion in rape scenarios, but making it widely available or expecting employers to provide it incentivizes women to whore themselves out and creates a nuisance
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The reason many people are poor is because they DONT save any spare money they have. They blow it on things to entertain them or make them happy

  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    All good points, but from what I have experienced 25hm is much, much easier than 10hm. That doesn't surprise me whatsoever though, considering that is how the current game was designed.
    You haven't even tried 25hm and you have a sig that is taken out of context of a dev talking about LFR 25 man so everything you say is invalid and you keep talking and making false statements. You refusing to link your armory and say which guild you're in makes it even more funny.

  16. #716
    Suggestions are a nice idea, but they will in no way incentivize 25 man raids.

    All those elements (patterns, flasks and food) are easily obtainable if you maintain a roster of 25+ people. The cashflow means you could actually just buy all that stuff from AH and be left with leftovers, but for the sake of arguing, you can buy /farm mats and get procs.

    Just separate the lockouts, for a start.
    That shit in ICC reduced my gametime by 50% (no, i don't want to roll a fourth alt).

    Then, start adressing the issue on rewards vs effort put in.

    I still can't believe people still say both are as hard though. Just ... just do both and see for yourself.

  17. #717
    All of this arguing for nothing lol. Link this on the WoW forums where devs can actually read it, even though Im sure they have seen it.

    10 > 25 in terms of what part of the population plays what and its not even close. Less than what 10% of all raiders raid in 25 mans? 25s will be out the door come next expac if not sooner. It really makes this whole argument moot anyways.

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by svenforkbeard View Post
    They get more loot already.
    25 man guilds do not get more loot. 2 pieces of loot per 10 people equals 5 pieces of loot per 25 people its simple math. There is no loot advantage for 25 man guilds and even worse is the fact that currently 10 man guilds get their legendary gems just as fast as 25 man guilds (this was never the case with other legendaries).

  19. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Offering a reward kinda seems like saying "There are two raid formats, we consider one superior and bribe you to do it".

    I don't understand why people keep insisting that 25 man raiding must be "saved". We are talking about a game, a hobby, a nice way to pass the time. Play it as you like it. Apparently of the world best 20 guilds, the majority thinks 25 man work better. Beyond that, more and more favor 10 mans.
    by what you said they should have never cancelled the 40 man raid format and it still today should be the only raid format. because i liked it so much. and like the guy from the interview said, 25 man raiding IS more difficult, even if only on a logistical basis. i know that most 10 man raiders defend their format because they fear that blizzard might change their mind again and give 25 man instances the better (higher iLvl) loot. i would have no problem with that. you still would be able to chose to play what you like most.

  20. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonkaden View Post
    All of this arguing for nothing lol. Link this on the WoW forums where devs can actually read it, even though Im sure they have seen it.

    10 > 25 in terms of what part of the population plays what and its not even close. Less than what 10% of all raiders raid in 25 mans? 25s will be out the door come next expac if not sooner. It really makes this whole argument moot anyways.
    It's quoted from WoW forums.
    Here's a US version, not exactly the same topic, but pretty similar.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...8648110?page=1
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 587 Enh/573 Ele 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 14/14 HM SoO
    Oxyra - Semi-Main DK - 570 Blood 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 4/14 HM SoO
    Raiding with Fused - Illidan

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