How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Deleted]

And I have had the exact opposite experience. My raiders are pushed to their limit in 10m, but we can fill out the last few spots of a 25m pug and just coast through on our alts. And that should be no surprise to anyone as that is how the current game was designed.

Read his post again and see why you failed.

[Espe]

the best way to bring interest back to 25-man raiding is to add incentive for 25-man raids.

But 25m are already incentivized. They get more loot per person, more battle rezes per attempt and all-around easier to execute encounters with far less personal responsibility required. They get all of these gifts for one reason - it is harder to get 25 people together than 10.

Once you actually step foot into the instance, however... well, just check out my sig.

[Radalek]

But 25m are already incentivized. They get more loot per person, more battle rezes per attempt and all-around easier to execute encounters with far less personal responsibility required. They get all of these gifts for one reason - it is harder to get 25 people together than 10.

Once you actually step foot into the instance, however... well, just check out my sig.

Wow, more rezes per attempt is an incentive? Please elaborate on that. It can't be 2.5 more rezes, it's 2 or 3. They decided it's 3 and then they decided there's only 2 mounts that drop on heroic bosses so there's more incentive to do 10 man raiding in that department for example.
And again, your sig is missleading since it's out of context and developer you're quoting was talking about 25 man LFR and later it's added that 25 man on higher difficulty is more complex. But you won't quote that, will you?
Stop spreading false informations.

[JudgePayne]

Personally I think the idea of a chest similar to the sha or anger chest should drop in 25 man and it can contain bonus gold + either an extra item or materials such as blood spirits, sha crystals. the bonus item would be from that bosses drop pool ofc, and on bosses that drop mounts or tier it could be an extra chance for the mount to drop.

[Samurai]

And again, your sig is missleading since it's out of context and developer you're quoting was talking about 25 man LFR and later it's added that 25 man on higher difficulty is more complex. But you won't quote that, will you?
Stop spreading false informations.

You don't want to let the facts get in the way of a good story.

[Oxyra]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...8648110?page=1

http://i.imgur.com/Pju1d.png

[Deleted]

You don't want to let the facts get in the way of a good story.

If he was in favor of 25s and he was doing such a "special" editing, you would see him smitted with "the righteous hammer" in a blink of an eye.

Instead, this troll is allowed to wave a snapshot of ghostcrawler's words that creates a totally different impression in the eyes of mmo champ readers.

[Deleted]

15 mans! Work on it Blizzard

Why do people keep regurgitating this demand for 15 man raids? They're still too small for people that prefer the epic feeling of 25s, all they would do is cause problems for those 10 man guilds that are already having attendance or recruitment problems. Nobody wins. 15 man raids are the worst possible solution they could come up with.

[Heathy]

sorry espe, but your crusade on the empowerment of 10mans being superior won't work, fundamentally 10s do indeed make each person work slightly harder, but there is more damage being dealt in a 25man, so there is a greater chance of getting one shot by something or getting unluckily hit by multiple sources of aoe damage, yes they have more chances to CR, but they need it to make up for the increase in chance that someone will fail or be unlucky.

it costs half as much to wipe a 10 man, 25 man is usually more complex to make up for the extra players running around, in 10 man if there is 1 add with the boss in 25 man there is usually 2 or 3 adds with the boss..

25 man scales upward it is actually the harder size raid when you couple length of fights, chance to get one shotted by something and the ability to keep forming 25mans and not move down to 10s, i would say 10s are the cake walk because they are easy to form, on that principle alone are they the easier raid because its more accessible to everyone not just guilds but pugs too. you can slack a bit in 25s if your raid has a boss on farm, but if your learning the fight it can take longer to execute a perfect strategy with more players, it takes longer for everyone to grasp the execution. it really comes down to the boss fight aswell, if there was a 10 man mount hyjal, archimonde would still be harder on 25man, because of the mechanics of the fight. having more ppl usually means that there is more chance someone will get killed which could then lead to a wipe.

[Angella]

Go back to better gear dropping from 25s and be done with it IMO. 25s are harder therefore they should drop better gear. Du.

[dokilar]

good start but i have to agree with the 2nd or 3rd poster. the lure of 25 mans has to be something significant i.e. higher ilvl like it was back in WOTLK.

i dont think adding more pieces of loot to the 25 man loot table is the answer either because that will only allow people to gear faster and thus lead to faster burnout as there will be nothing to do once theyre geared. i can honestly say that i never cared about the difference in ilvl back in WOTLK and didnt feel like i was pressured to do both 25 and 10 mans. in fact i felt the complete opposite. i main tanked for our guild back during wrath and while we were a predominant 10 man guild we did do 25 mans with another guild every week, but never once did i feel like i letting my 10-man guild down or anything if i missed the 25 man raid.

i dunno, maybe make 10 man heroic and 25 man normals the same ilvl and have 25 man heroics a few ilvl higher, maybe not as much as WOTLK but anywhere between 5-8. maybe make it within range that you can upgrade your 10 man heroic gear to the same as 25 man heroic with the valor upgrade

[Tepesch]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...8648110?page=1

http://i.imgur.com/Pju1d.png

Please post me that raiding graph versus subscribers, versus arena relase, versus people doing arena, and we can talk again about well argumented statistics

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 09:31 AM ----------

sorry espe, but your crusade on the empowerment of 10mans being superior won't work, fundamentally 10s do indeed make each person work slightly harder, but there is more damage being dealt in a 25man, so there is a greater chance of getting one shot by something or getting unluckily hit by multiple sources of aoe damage, yes they have more chances to CR, but they need it to make up for the increase in chance that someone will fail or be unlucky.

it costs half as much to wipe a 10 man, 25 man is usually more complex to make up for the extra players running around, in 10 man if there is 1 add with the boss in 25 man there is usually 2 or 3 adds with the boss..

25 man scales upward it is actually the harder size raid when you couple length of fights, chance to get one shotted by something and the ability to keep forming 25mans and not move down to 10s, i would say 10s are the cake walk because they are easy to form, on that principle alone are they the easier raid because its more accessible to everyone not just guilds but pugs too. you can slack a bit in 25s if your raid has a boss on farm, but if your learning the fight it can take longer to execute a perfect strategy with more players, it takes longer for everyone to grasp the execution. it really comes down to the boss fight aswell, if there was a 10 man mount hyjal, archimonde would still be harder on 25man, because of the mechanics of the fight. having more ppl usually means that there is more chance someone will get killed which could then lead to a wipe.

Yeah you're totally right. But if you take 10 equally skilled people who down a boss in 10man and you take 25 equally skilled people they down the same boss on 25man, and it will be more or less equally difficult.
That's the system, and it's really well balanced at the moment.
The problem is not the game, the problem is finding 25 equally skilled people. But you can't give better loot just for the sake that a 25 man raid has the higher possibility of having a guy who fails. It's like that, and it will always be like that. The more people you have, the higher is the chance of having someone who doesn't play right.
The system is alright, in theory, in practice it's the people who make the system bad.
In my opinion, merging some low population servers together would come to the rescue of many 25man guild, because they have more players available to recruit, which is imo really a problem at the moment.
At the moment, if somebody fails it's a wipe in 10man and 25man, and that's okay.

[fengosa]

good start but i have to agree with the 2nd or 3rd poster. the lure of 25 mans has to be something significant i.e. higher ilvl like it was back in WOTLK.

i dont think adding more pieces of loot to the 25 man loot table is the answer either because that will only allow people to gear faster and thus lead to faster burnout as there will be nothing to do once theyre geared. i can honestly say that i never cared about the difference in ilvl back in WOTLK and didnt feel like i was pressured to do both 25 and 10 mans. in fact i felt the complete opposite. i main tanked for our guild back during wrath and while we were a predominant 10 man guild we did do 25 mans with another guild every week, but never once did i feel like i letting my 10-man guild down or anything if i missed the 25 man raid.

i dunno, maybe make 10 man heroic and 25 man normals the same ilvl and have 25 man heroics a few ilvl higher, maybe not as much as WOTLK but anywhere between 5-8. maybe make it within range that you can upgrade your 10 man heroic gear to the same as 25 man heroic with the valor upgrade

As a 10 man raider I wouldn't mind if they implemented what they did on Korean servers. 25 mans raids with ilvl half a tier above 10 man. Just make sure that the gear is the same so you don't have attractive trinkets drop from the format you don't run. 10 extra valor or so per boss would be fine as well. It's a nice incentive for those who want to organize 25 mans but at the same time i wouldn't feel pressured into running them.

From there, just make it so you can loot in both formats but only if you haven't done the boss yet that week. You get locked out once all bosses have been looted to prevent tanks from having to run people through 6 times a week.

[Heathy]

Yeah you're totally right. But if you take 10 equally skilled people who down a boss in 10man and you take 25 equally skilled people they down the same boss on 25man, and it will be more or less equally difficult.
That's the system, and it's really well balanced at the moment.
The problem is not the game, the problem is finding 25 equally skilled people. But you can't give better loot just for the sake that a 25 man raid has the higher possibility of having a guy who fails. It's like that, and it will always be like that. The more people you have, the higher is the chance of having someone who doesn't play right.
The system is alright, in theory, in practice it's the people who make the system bad.
In my opinion, merging some low population servers together would come to the rescue of many 25man guild, because they have more players available to recruit, which is imo really a problem at the moment.
At the moment, if somebody fails it's a wipe in 10man and 25man, and that's okay.

I agree, having a better pool of players would help tremendously in keeping the roster stocked, although I do actually believe the incentive should exist because currently there is no reason to expand into 25 beyond it looking more epic and only if you can easily get that many ppl together.

the length of time you spend wiping and learning in 25 should equal the extra reward, 10's should want to move into 25s and it should not be the other way around unless you simply don't have enough players one day. the main reason why 25s were more prevalent is not only because guilds have been downsizing since tbc but because of the greater ilvl, what i've seen is lots of guild just splitting into 2 10 mans because that previous incentive is no longer keeping them doing it in 25 it really does seem that the only reason you would want to actually do 25mans these days is masochism and little else..

[Tepesch]

I agree, having a better pool of players would help tremendously in keeping the roster stocked, although I do actually believe the incentive should exist because currently there is no reason to expand into 25 beyond it looking more epic and only if you can easily get that many ppl together.

the length of time you spend wiping and learning in 25 should equal the extra reward, 10's should want to move into 25s and it should not be the other way around unless you simply don't have enough players one day. the main reason why 25s were more prevalent is not only because guilds have been downsizing since tbc but because of the greater ilvl, what i've seen is lots of guild just splitting into 2 10 mans because that previous incentive is no longer keeping them doing it in 25 it really does seem that the only reason you would want to actually do 25mans these days is masochism and little else..

That's true unfortunately. And though I like raiding 25man, I still think that you shouldn't make up an "unfair" system just to get the 25man raids going again.

I am still a great supporter of different looking gear, different achievements, different mounts, different for 25man and 10man, maybe with the opportunity only to get one of both. However, higher itemlevel for 25man is not an option imo.

The proposed solution of dropping single upgraded gear in 25man is also too extreme, but I think having the chance (like 10%) of getting single upgraded loot or (1%) fully upgraded loot wouldn't be all that bad to motivate 25man.

Also it shouldn't be that harsh to farm mats for 25man. Blizz should really include cauldrons again, and just make them the same (also bufffood etc.) for 10man and 25man to reduce the work for raid leaders of 25man raids.

[Grishnok]

HERE IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE:

Scrap 10 man raiding. Scrap 25 man raiding. (25 man raiding is now running into the same problems 40 man raiding did.. thus getting scrapped.) 25 man raiding is a pain in the ass for raid leaders and with wow bleeding subs and 10 man being easier in the minds of most its just not what it used to be nor will it ever be again.

SOLUTION:

CHANGE ALL RAIDS TO A SINGLE 15 MAN LOCKOUT. Scale the fights appropriately. Add an extra item of loot to the table. 3 items drop. 4 on end bosses of each raid instance.

Its a win win situation.

Slightly increases raid leader responsibility of 10 man guilds.
Fixes the problem where 10 man guilds have 15-20 people who want to raid but the remainder get shafted and have to look elsewhere or have to make multiple 10 man teams that compete and cause guild drama because of what team players end up on.
Greatly reduced raiding responsibility for 25 man guilds. Have to recruit and find less people. Still get a decent amount of loot. Not quite as easy at 10 mans but not as unforgiving as 25.

25 man raids should only exist at this point as an LFR option to get as many people there as possible.

This would also open up the window for more time for blizzard to work on more content. Now they would only be tuning each instance to 3 difficulties (LFR and 15 man normal/heroic raids) as opposed to 5.

Problem solved.

[Heathy]

I guess this is where we differ in opinion, i am totally of the mindset that, it is not unfair because 10 mans are not being deprived of anything, the option to grow a 25man component (even if you can't get everyone online for every set raid day) should be a goal, instead of sitting comfortably doing 10's while the players who have exerted that extra effort and time are stuck being rewarded the same simply because its somehow considered immoral that 25mans have a separate tier balanced around their separate raid size.

I don't know about 15 mans either, they already pissed off a lot of ppl when they practically cut guilds in half with the change to 25 man, this could be a stake in the heart sort of change. some ppl simply like doing larger raids, i know i will always miss 40s even if they usually were just clusterfks. the TS excitement was hilarity at its finest. so many ppl so much lols.

[Deleted]

I say, if you don't find 25 man fun enough to do it without needing an extra reward, just don't do it. It's very obvious that people think the extra fun doesn't outweigh the extra effort you need to put into it, so they demand extra 'payment' to do it anyway. I just think they should stop doing it and let 25 man die. It's obviously not fun.

[Deleted]

HERE IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE:

Yes, that's what needs to be done if you want to kill off the last 25 man guilds and a large number of small 10 man guilds.

Its a win win situation.

For whom? A few 10 man guilds that have overrecruited win, everyone else loses.

I guess this is where we differ in opinion, i am totally of the mindset that, it is not unfair because 10 mans are not being deprived of anything, the option to grow a 25man component (even if you can't get everyone online for every set raid day) should be a goal, instead of sitting comfortably doing 10's while the players who have exerted that extra effort and time are stuck being rewarded the same simply because its somehow considered immoral that 25mans have a separate tier balanced around their separate raid size.

I don't know about 15 mans either, they already pissed off a lot of ppl when they practically cut guilds in half with the change to 25 man, this could be a stake in the heart sort of change. some ppl simply like doing larger raids, i know i will always miss 40s even if they usually were just clusterfks. the TS excitement was hilarity at its finest. so many ppl so much lols.

Agree with everything you say.

[Deleted]

Problem solved.

Nice that you can post as if it's the ultimate truth, but of course it's not. I don't like more then 10man raids and will stop raiding if I suddenly have to go 15man. We also only have 11 people on our roster, forcing me to recruit again, which I don't want. If 25man raids have/are a problem, why would you make 10man raids suffer in order to solve that? It's ridiculous. Just do 25man if you like it or don't if you don't and leave 10man out of it.