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  1. #1221
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    You mean, from a size perfect for family and friends but which was regarded as a joke and relatively unstable because 25s kept poaching the players to a size perfect for family and friends but which is regarded as an equal of the 25 man format and worthy in its own right

    And Blizzard decided 10 mans should be just as viable instead. That 10s needed to be equal to 25s. That the old model, with all its flaws and issues needed to go. No morewould Blizzard have to try and adjust content around two or three gearing speeds. No more would 10s be seen as feeding grounds for 25 man guilds. No more would players be "forced" to abandon their guilds and friends because the 25 man offered them a better deal.

    let the less hardcore/casual players a chance at raiding - LFR and Normal.
    still keeping the hardcore players happy - Heroic.
    10 man raiding was not a joke it was a fun format for family and friends in wrath and you could very well still raid in it with family and friends even if you did some 25 man raiding on the side.

    And the only reason 10 man had to be pushed was because a vocal minority of elitist 10 man raiders did not feel appreciated enough.

    And the current model is more like
    family and friends casual players-- LFR
    medicore raiders-- normal raiding
    hardcore raiders-- heroic raiding

    Casual and family and friends are more or less excluded from the fun social interaction of normal raiding.
    And sure i know there are some very good casual players but there are also a lot of not so good players in that segment. Whose skill level was good enough for normal raiding in wrath but are now damned to do lfr.
    Personally i probably schouldn't care because i am sitting pretty in my own raiding guild but maybe blizz schould care.
    I do remember a post earlier in this thread where someone had posted numbers of the decline of the amount of people doing normal raiding from wrath to now.
    And i think that a lot of those good old customers simply can't get into normal raiding anymore.

  2. #1222
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakkí View Post
    It certainly felt this way to me.

    I raided 25m Heroics from T8-T11 and 10m Heroics from T12-T14 and my own role in 25s felt decidedly simpler to fulfill in most cases. It certainly wasn't more complicated in any of them. The encounters also felt more forgiving to individual mistakes up to a point due to 3 brez and increased raid cooldowns & utility. Only getting peeps to come to the spot on time was more challenging sometimes.
    Any effect that requires the entire raid to do something correctly is much harder on 25s because there are 2.5x as many people to screw up. If a fight has a mechanic that causes a wipe if someone screws up on it, that mechanic is harder because there are more people to screw up. If a fight has an enrage timer or other mechanic that requires everyone to be up for most of the fight (and newsflash, many hard modes do), then it's going to be much harder in 25s. The extra battle resses do not compensate because the risk that someone will screw up on any given effect is multiplicative, not additive. And nevermind that Blizzard can tune enrage timers, HPS checks, and DPS checks to be much, much tighter in 25s.

    Of course, there are ways for Blizzard to counter the above, so I'm not necessarily saying that 25s are harder than 10s (although certain fights definitely have been). But the conventional 10s forum warrior wisdom that 10s require "greater responsibility" is total BS.

  3. #1223
    10s always been easier to 'break', since class stacking is much easier and encounter design doesn't assume using multiple immunities, knockbacks, high power aoe's etc. Of course, it also works in reverse - poorly set up groups can have much bigger issues than 25s, which generally have access to everything (and are balanced accordingly). And that's why we get those "but you have 3 combat reses and every single buff" thingys.

  4. #1224
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    Agreed. 10man can be cruel if your combo sucks for that fight.

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  5. #1225
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  6. #1226
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleric View Post
    The extra battle resses do not compensate because the risk that someone will screw up on any given effect is multiplicative, not additive. And nevermind that Blizzard can tune enrage timers, HPS checks, and DPS checks to be much, much tighter in 25s.

    Of course, there are ways for Blizzard to counter the above, so I'm not necessarily saying that 25s are harder than 10s (although certain fights definitely have been). But the conventional 10s forum warrior wisdom that 10s require "greater responsibility" is total BS.
    Firstly, they aren't multiplicative. The only case where it behaves that way is if you assume zero mistakes can be made in either raid type, then, you can just multiply the correct probabilities. Let's ignore the fact that what you said is wrong, and just address the issue that what you seem to be arguing actually proves the opposite of your conclusion for most fights. If we take, as a measure of individual skill, the frequency which an individual makes a mistake, the fact that you have 10 man raids taking the same order of magnitude in pulls to kill a boss would mean that the skill required is higher of each individual in the 10 man.
    Unfortunately it's very rarely the "skill" of an individual that determines how many pulls it takes to kill an encounter but much more likely it's how long it takes your slowest learning player to learn the encounter. That is something that depends only on your "weakest link" so to speak and if you're assuming 25 and 10 people of equal skill and learning abilities, you have the same value for your weakest link.

    Also, battle resses are not the only thing that is more "relaxed", let's take two examples from HoF. On Zor'lok, and the Noise Cancelling Zones, in 10H you get 4 zones, each can only hold 3 people. In 25H you get 4 zones, each can only hold 7. In 10 man you have 2 zones with 3 and two zones with 2, in 25 man you have only one zone with 7, the rest all have 6, thus allowing more "error" and yet still not causing a failure to that mechanic.
    Let's take another example, on Blade Lord and his Unseen Strike, if you have all 10 players or all 25 players in the cleave they all take 450k damage on heroic. Let's say each raid has one player not make it in, the damage taken becomes 500k on 10 man but only 469k on 25 man.

    In the end it all comes down to blizzard's tuning as to which fights are harder on 10 vs. 25 man but it is their goal that they are equally difficult and if you take that as their goal then if that goal is achieved, the only thing that needs to be addressed is a way to handle the logistics of getting 25 people together every week vs 10 people. This is a burden that falls only on the raid leaders or guild masters and I think we can all agree that these people shouldn't be rewarded more than a "normal" raider. This means that the only real solution for this problem is for blizzard to make it easier to gather together people who want to do the same type of content so that the difference between having to find 10 vs 25 are negligible.
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  7. #1227
    Quote Originally Posted by CDShaidar View Post
    Firstly, they aren't multiplicative. The only case where it behaves that way is if you assume zero mistakes can be made in either raid type, then, you can just multiply the correct probabilities. Let's ignore the fact that what you said is wrong, and just address the issue that what you seem to be arguing actually proves the opposite of your conclusion for most fights. If we take, as a measure of individual skill, the frequency which an individual makes a mistake, the fact that you have 10 man raids taking the same order of magnitude in pulls to kill a boss would mean that the skill required is higher of each individual in the 10 man.
    Unfortunately it's very rarely the "skill" of an individual that determines how many pulls it takes to kill an encounter but much more likely it's how long it takes your slowest learning player to learn the encounter. That is something that depends only on your "weakest link" so to speak and if you're assuming 25 and 10 people of equal skill and learning abilities, you have the same value for your weakest link.

    Also, battle resses are not the only thing that is more "relaxed", let's take two examples from HoF. On Zor'lok, and the Noise Cancelling Zones, in 10H you get 4 zones, each can only hold 3 people. In 25H you get 4 zones, each can only hold 7. In 10 man you have 2 zones with 3 and two zones with 2, in 25 man you have only one zone with 7, the rest all have 6, thus allowing more "error" and yet still not causing a failure to that mechanic.
    Let's take another example, on Blade Lord and his Unseen Strike, if you have all 10 players or all 25 players in the cleave they all take 450k damage on heroic. Let's say each raid has one player not make it in, the damage taken becomes 500k on 10 man but only 469k on 25 man.

    In the end it all comes down to blizzard's tuning as to which fights are harder on 10 vs. 25 man but it is their goal that they are equally difficult and if you take that as their goal then if that goal is achieved, the only thing that needs to be addressed is a way to handle the logistics of getting 25 people together every week vs 10 people. This is a burden that falls only on the raid leaders or guild masters and I think we can all agree that these people shouldn't be rewarded more than a "normal" raider. This means that the only real solution for this problem is for blizzard to make it easier to gather together people who want to do the same type of content so that the difference between having to find 10 vs 25 are negligible.
    Regarding mechanics that require the entire raid to do something correctly, the risk of failure is obviously multiplicative. If a mechanic will wipe the raid if one person fails to it, and x is the chance that any given raid member will fail to it, then the risk of failure is (1-x)^10 on 10s and (1-x)^25 on 25s. I guess you could call that exponential instead of multiplicative, but I think the point stands either way. Not sure why you're blathering on about mechanics that - don't - require the entire raid to do something correctly, as that isn't what I was talking about in the paragraph that you (partially) quoted and were apparently responding to.

    Regarding mechanics that don't require the raid to do something correctly - so like survivable raid damage or whatever - I think those fall in to the category of ways for Blizzard to counter the above effect. Potentially. Obviously whether a given effect is harder on 10s or 25s is specific to that particular effect. And it's hard to discuss whether these effects are harder on 10 or 25 objectively, highlighted by the fact that you seem to think having 12 noise cancellation spots for 10 people on Zor'lok is somehow more challenging than having 28 spots for 25 (if after re-examination you still need this explained to you, let me know!).

    Your reference to unseen strike, again, is based on poor math and poor overall comprehension of the subject. Yes, obviously one person missing it in 10 is more problematic than one person missing it on 25. But that's comparing apples to oranges. Given equal groups, one person missing it on 10s is as likely as 2-3 people missing it on 25s.

    And, of course, you tellingly totally ignored the part of my post about enrages, DPS checks, and HPS checks being much tighter on 25s.

  8. #1228
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleric View Post
    Regarding mechanics that require the entire raid to do something correctly, the risk of failure is obviously multiplicative. If a mechanic will wipe the raid if one person fails to it, and x is the chance that any given raid member will fail to it, then the risk of failure is (1-x)^10 on 10s and (1-x)^25 on 25s. I guess you could call that exponential instead of multiplicative, but I think the point stands either way. Not sure why you're blathering on about mechanics that - don't - require the entire raid to do something correctly, as that isn't what I was talking about in the paragraph that you (partially) quoted and were apparently responding to.

    Regarding mechanics that don't require the raid to do something correctly - so like survivable raid damage or whatever - I think those fall in to the category of ways for Blizzard to counter the above effect. Potentially. Obviously whether a given effect is harder on 10s or 25s is specific to that particular effect. And it's hard to discuss whether these effects are harder on 10 or 25 objectively, highlighted by the fact that you seem to think having 12 noise cancellation spots for 10 people on Zor'lok is somehow more challenging than having 28 spots for 25 (if after re-examination you still need this explained to you, let me know!).

    Your reference to unseen strike, again, is based on poor math and poor overall comprehension of the subject. Yes, obviously one person missing it in 10 is more problematic than one person missing it on 25. But that's comparing apples to oranges. Given equal groups, one person missing it on 10s is as likely as 2-3 people missing it on 25s.

    And, of course, you tellingly totally ignored the part of my post about enrages, DPS checks, and HPS checks being much tighter on 25s.
    Hey come on man, lets not use facts and common sense, that's unfair to 10m raiders.

    Also, about Blade Lord: they already have such a hard time to spread 10 whole raiders on the same room where we only have to spread a mere 25, I mean clearly this means 10m is harder and bears more responisbility to move in time. Its so unfair that they have to have all 10 people stack with that incredible space disadvantage while 25m can afford not to have 1 person stack and already have it so much easier in terms of space.
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  9. #1229
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    It's not necessary to reward the 25-man raiders.

    The only ones who do more work than their 10-man counterparts are the raid leaders/officers. And most of the work is the recruitment.

    Long-time 25-man raider here, gone 10 man since Mop launch to play with some cool people and lose some dead weight.

  10. #1230
    Quote Originally Posted by Seriss View Post
    It's not necessary to reward the 25-man raiders.

    The only ones who do more work than their 10-man counterparts are the raid leaders/officers. And most of the work is the recruitment.

    Long-time 25-man raider here, gone 10 man since Mop launch to play with some cool people and lose some dead weight.
    I am not criticizing your choice "to lose dead weight". I do criticize blizzard for allowing such a thing to happen though.
    That "dead weight" now and not only, will disband the guild or downsize (if you were not alone but a clique of people in that guild that left together). Or they will raid 10 man too.
    If you fail to see why this is neither right, nor promotes the modo "to let the people raid the size they want", i rest my case, there is nothing more i can say on the matter.
    You as an individual will prosper, while others will suffer. And there are thousand others in your place, and in the "ones that suffer" place.
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  11. #1231
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    I am not criticizing your choice "to lose dead weight". I do criticize blizzard for allowing such a thing to happen though.
    That "dead weight" now and not only, will disband the guild or downsize (if you were not alone but a clique of people in that guild that left together). Or they will raid 10 man too.
    If we were still playing in a time when 10-man wasn't an option for an ambitious raider, that clique of people would have gone to a better 25-man guild, leaving the result for the former guild to be the same - even though they do have more than enough people to keep raiding, albeit not as successfully anymore. It's not like many of us didn't try to talk to our ex-raid leader about things that need to be improved if we want to continue at about the same level in MoP where we knew from beta experience that encounters would be quite challenging compared to DS - whereas the majority of people in that raid didn't even have level 90 beta chars to stumble about in beta-LFR.

    Before we decided to do 10-man this expansion, we actually thought about applying to a really nice 25-man guild because it just feels more epic with so many people to herd around, and we even found one that had almost all our classes on high or medium. If our own little thing doesn't work out, we'll probably try to get in touch with that guild and see if they will have us. For now, we're sticking to our little experiment, even if it requires that each of us carry more weight on their shoulders in regards to responsibility. A tight 10-man roster makes reliability and dependability a much greater factor than they are for a 25-man with a large roster.

    For a 25-man guild to survive, for ANY guild to survive, all members must be on the same page. They must all be a homogenous group of goals and wishes. If interests are spread too widely in a guild - and a 25-man is far more likely to suffer from it - the more skilled guys will become unhappy with the situation because they want to push harder but are being held back. And the guys whose game isn't up to par will suffer from being pushed harder than they actually want to be pushed, because for them, having achieved xy is enough - whereas it is by far now enough for the other end of the spectrum that is sitting in the roster.

    It's way easier to maintain a homogenous mixture in a smaller group.
    Last edited by Seriss; 2012-11-28 at 03:17 PM.

  12. #1232
    Lets not forget:

    Room size stays the same in 25 mans as it is in 10 mans. That gives less room per person to work with when it is time to work with fight mechanics like debuffs, mechanics like defials, or fights like sinestra with the linked orbs.

    By definition 25 mans will always be harder just for that reason even if they manage to achieve the greatest of balance in boss difficulty.

    Then you got all the effort running that guild as it is, organizing raids etc which is much much harder and takes much much more effort than a 10 man guild.

    In my opinion they just need to do a revert to the icc model. Nothing else will work and sooner or later you will rarely see 25 man guilds.

    Giving flasks / gold etc is nothing really. They need to go back either to higher ilvls and/ or give different achievements.

    Hell! Just put them in different reset already!

  13. #1233
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Lets not forget:

    Room size stays the same in 25 mans as it is in 10 mans. That gives less room per person to work with when it is time to work with fight mechanics like debuffs, mechanics like defials, or fights like sinestra with the linked orbs.

    By definition 25 mans will always be harder just for that reason even if they manage to achieve the greatest of balance in boss difficulty.
    Ah but you mustn't forget that 25-man becomes easier in fights where you need a few people to fulfill a few tasks. Half of your 10-man raid can have their hands full, maybe even all of them in some cases, whereas your 25-man can select a small amount of people to carry the responsibility. That's why T11 was so annoying.

    Also, 15 people stacking on the same spot vs 5 people stacking on the same spot at Sinestra... gimme a break. I've done both raid sizes back then. People derped on both sizes, and it didn't depend on 'those other guys' that were standing in the same spot as you but didn't derp.

  14. #1234
    I think, in general, that this tier has been pretty evenly tuned. I haven't started mashing heroic modes on my alt yet (another reset or two of gearing up in normals should do it), but I'm sure I'll get a better view of what's harder then. So far, it seems quite even. Take the fights in MSV:

    First off, you have to remember that fights in 10 man are designed around having less raid cooldowns than 25 mans (an example would be how Tranq is capped at 30 heals total, which means it'll heal one person once per average in a 25 man, but one person 3 times in a 10 man, ensuring that they only need ONE raid CD, where 25 man needs 2-3).

    Stone guards -
    25 Man has an extra kitty, and far more players that can fuck up on bombs, less space, etc.
    However, 10 man "only" has 10 raiders, so while 25 man can afford two dedicated "tile runners" to light up tiles the entire fight for building up the dps/spirit buff, 10 man has to deal without that luxury.
    So while it's harder tactics-wise for a 25 man, it becomes easier in terms of "special" tasks.

    Feng -
    Afraid I see no downside on this fight for 10 mans. Less adds, much more space for the arcane phase to spread, and... Yea.

    Garajal -
    25 man was suspectible to an absolutly BRUTAL enrage timer when this was current content, while 10 mans had a much easier time handling it, so much so that 25 mans would drop to 4 (or 4 + 1 smite disc priest doing ~40k dps) to meet the enrage RIGHT on time, while 10 mans could use 3 healers and be well within the enrage (world firsts were done with -2 sec to enrage for 25 man, and 15 sec to enrage for 10 man).
    However, 10 man was suspectible to more RNG with the voodoo dolls, which means they pretty much HAD to use either two hybrids to help offhealing (if going with 2 healers), or 3 healers.

    Again, fight is harder in different aspects, due to mechanics not scaling well from 10 to 25 and vice versa.

    On Spirit Kings, there's the obvious contenders - it's easier in 10 man to deal with the space needed for volley/arrows, maddening shouts, and less people can trigger the shield from Ziang (it might be obvious to people, but there's a much higher chance of one person accidentelly hitting the shield in a 25 man than in a 10 man, purely due to the fact that there's 2.5 times more people. To whatever guy has been arguing some wierd nonsense mathematics that it means there's a higher skillcap in 10's, seriously. Get over it - 25 persons are more likely to fail a 1 shot mechanic like the shield than 10).

    Elegon I don't see any particular difference between the two sizes, except that I guess it was tuned to be slightly more healing and dps intensive in 25's (supported by the fact that dungeon journal says that most things do about 5-10% more dmg in 25 mans, like Elegon's Breath and the explosion you have to soak).
    As long as you used 18 dps in 25 man and 6 dps in 10 man, you get a 3/1 spread on the sparks, have the same relative amount of healers (1 healer per 5 persons), etc - sparks have slightly more HP in 25 man, but that's to offset the buffs you get from having 3 persons on one, instead of one.

    Will of the emperor is really the biggest difference between the two, and without having tried it in 10 man, I don't really want to speak up about it (especially as my 25 man so far has used the ring of frost tactic, so haven't even tried the "real" way with soaking and killing adds and what not yet). I could see it swinging either way - it's obviously easier to keep a wave of rages controlled, just through targetted CC and a minimum of communication, then blowing 4 up at once. While in 25 man, you'll have a harder time handling 8, two courages, strengths, etc... Dunno, can swing either way.


    CBA doing HoF or terrace, but all in all, I think this might have been the most balanced tier they've done "so far", which I guess we can attribute to the fact that buffs have been homogenized even more now.

    But as an officer of a heroic mode 25 man guild - alot of work is put into handling everything from internal disputes, to recruitment, to planning of tactics and strategies, along with a much more complex loot situation than any 10 man has (assuming loot council used, DKP etc can just get out, it's so inefficient for the raid as a whole and only a way out for lazy raid leaders).

  15. #1235
    Stood in the Fire Nakkí's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleric View Post
    Any effect that requires the entire raid to do something correctly is much harder on 25s because there are 2.5x as many people to screw up. If a fight has a mechanic that causes a wipe if someone screws up on it, that mechanic is harder because there are more people to screw up. If a fight has an enrage timer or other mechanic that requires everyone to be up for most of the fight (and newsflash, many hard modes do), then it's going to be much harder in 25s. The extra battle resses do not compensate because the risk that someone will screw up on any given effect is multiplicative, not additive. And nevermind that Blizzard can tune enrage timers, HPS checks, and DPS checks to be much, much tighter in 25s.

    Of course, there are ways for Blizzard to counter the above, so I'm not necessarily saying that 25s are harder than 10s (although certain fights definitely have been). But the conventional 10s forum warrior wisdom that 10s require "greater responsibility" is total BS.
    We have to keep in mind that mechanics that wipe the entire raid due to one (non-tank) player's mistake are quite rare - although they are to be found in every tier. This time it's really unforgiving stuff like Zian's shield on Spirit Kings or Amber-Shaper's last phase beacons. In these specific cases it is clear 25s will have more of a learning curve to get over these humps. If a mechanic is not as strict as that, though, the steep (2.5x) rise in difficulty just isn't there anymore.

    Enrage timers, then. It is true from observation that when new content ships, the guilds racing for 25M world firsts seem to historically have to deal with tighter (hard/soft) enrage timers than their 10M counterparts. Ultraxion, Baleroc, Elegon, Gara'jal come to mind off the top of my head. These DPS checks tend to disappear into obscurity over just a reset or two of gear, however.

    Individual responsibility. This (for the purposes of the topic at hand) depends largely on two factors:
    1) How often an average player gets assigned "special" tasks like interrupt rotations, utility usage, kiting and such.
    2) How much an individual's death affects the forecast for the pull's success.

    As we discussed earlier, the weight of these factors varies from encounter to encounter. Intuition directs me to think that a player is more likely to get placed in special "make or break" roles in 10s but I'd have to raid the current content in 25s to verify.
    Last edited by Nakkí; 2012-11-30 at 12:26 PM.

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