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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by zorben View Post
    However, contrary to most peoples thinking, frost striking even if it uses up a KM proc (Frost 2H) is a dps gain over waiting even 1 second to obliterate.
    If i understand this correctly, you're saying that just waiting 1 second for runes to OB with KM is DPS loss? This is actually NOT correct according to EJ Topic: Advanced Frost Priority Tactics (2hand)

    Quote:

    With KM, but not enough runes to obliterate:

    Every second you wait, there is a chance that KM is overridden. So how long is it worth waiting before the override renders waiting not worth it?
    KM has 6 ppm, and fully raid buffed most dks have around 50% haste. That's 9 actual ppm, or .15 pps. Therefore, every 6.666 seconds, on average, you will get one KM proc. If FS gets an x boost of damage from KM, obliterate gets about 2x. Therefore, with average luck, waiting the full 6.666 seconds makes you break even, whereas waiting less becomes a bigger gain the less time you wait, assuming you get KM to actually proc. This is also assuming you continue to not allow the other resources to overcap.

    So that basically means that its worth waiting 6 seconds with a KM proc to use on OB. If you wait LONGER then 6.6 seconds it`s considerd a DPS loss to not use Frost strike on a KM proc.

  2. #22
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorben View Post
    However, contrary to most peoples thinking, frost striking even if it uses up a KM proc (Frost 2H) is a dps gain over waiting even 1 second to obliterate.
    Explain this a bit further, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naughtý View Post
    So that basically means that its worth waiting 6 seconds with a KM proc to use on OB. If you wait LONGER then 6.6 seconds it`s considerd a DPS loss to not use Frost strike on a KM proc.
    Imho waiting 6.6 seconds (or more than 3 seconds for that matter) is way way way too much.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by zorben View Post
    sitting on runes, runic power, or blood charges and waiting, even when those things aren't capped is a dps loss.
    I fail to see how that is true, as long as you don't cap then you have wasted nothing. You could always burn the extra resources at the end of the fight. If you just go full out and burn all your resources you will end up with dead time in your rotation which seems like a larger dps loss then spreading out the dead time to gain extra KM Obliterates. Maybe if RNG is perfect than using your abilities instantly will be a dps gain but that is never the case.

    I've noticed higher and more coincident dps by using a swing timer and timing KM correctly. I would also consider KM a resource and wasting any potential procs by waiting a dps loss. So I will use KM on a frost strike if I cant obliterate before the next swing and potential KM proc or if waiting means the next obliterate will cause me to cap a resource. Otherwise I fail to see what I have lost by waiting for the swing.

  4. #24
    Lets be honest though, to truly make Plague Leech ahead of Unholy Blight you have to be able to master how to use it and it is actually quite complicated for the normal dk out there. I was trying it out myself earlier today and I must say it took quite some time to get use to it, not only that but it is really hard to nail it down. For 90% of the normal DK player base Unholy Blight will be the best talent. There is already such much to micro manage as it is for DKs and adding PL to the list doesn't help.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by GamerLCD View Post
    Lets be honest though, to truly make Plague Leech ahead of Unholy Blight you have to be able to master how to use it and it is actually quite complicated for the normal dk out there. I was trying it out myself earlier today and I must say it took quite some time to get use to it, not only that but it is really hard to nail it down. For 90% of the normal DK player base Unholy Blight will be the best talent. There is already such much to micro manage as it is for DKs and adding PL to the list doesn't help.

    That's the point though, this is an ADVANCED DK DPS guide. Not a beginners, I yelled at our guild DK the other night because he was whining about plague leech. Yes you can take the idiot proof talent, no it's not a DPS increase.

    A side note my DK is my main alt I'm playing right now he's 6/6 MV and 2/6 HoF. I just started playing him this expansion and I am perfectly able to deal with plague leech.
    Last edited by Bonsaii; 2012-11-20 at 10:25 AM.

  6. #26
    Pushing 1 extra buttons every ~30 secs is not complicated. This only slightly more complex than reapplying your diseases using Plague Strike and Howling Blast, something people are very familiar with. The only complex bit is hitting Plague Leach before this.

    You get a rime proc and PL is off CD? Hit plague leach, plague strike, howling blast.
    Outbreak is off CD and PL is off CD? Hit Plague Leach and then hit Outbreak.

    It only takes maybe 20 mins of dpsing to really get into the rotation. It's really decent and well worth the 2300dps upgrade.

  7. #27
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talindra View Post
    That's the point though, this is an ADVANCED DK DPS guide. Not a beginners, I yelled at our guild DK the other night because he was whining about plague leech. Yes you can take the idiot proof talent, no it's not a DPS increase.
    UB it's a free unholy rune every 90 seconds while PL it's a free death rune every 60 seconds. You are right this guide should provide better information but you are overrating PL too much tbh (at least for 2h). On a patchwerk fight it's an easy choice, other than that I really don't know if PL is really a dps increase.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    other than that I really don't know if PL is really a dps increase.
    It doesn't need to be 100% patchwerk to expect high performance when you are talking about 'advanced' players. There are plenty of fights that allow for PL to be a dps increase without being a perfect human machine. As others have said, PL isn't extremely hard to use and any player wanting to get the most out of his/her class (i.e. someone looking for advanced tips) should be able to get the hang of it without too much effort.

  9. #29
    Moderator Fnx-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GamerLCD View Post
    Lets be honest though, to truly make Plague Leech ahead of Unholy Blight you have to be able to master how to use it and it is actually quite complicated for the normal dk out there. I was trying it out myself earlier today and I must say it took quite some time to get use to it, not only that but it is really hard to nail it down. For 90% of the normal DK player base Unholy Blight will be the best talent. There is already such much to micro manage as it is for DKs and adding PL to the list doesn't help.
    Will have to agree with the others, if this is "Advanced DK Guide" PL should be the first choice. I'm not a big fan of PL myself tho, but that isn't very relevant since it's not my guide What you maybe should have done was saying you personally would pick UB over PL and explain why. Same case if we talk BT, a massive amount of players just use a macro with BT in a few strikes, cause its easier, but far from the best way to max dps.

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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by PowerGamez View Post
    Pushing 1 extra buttons every ~30 secs is not complicated. This only slightly more complex than reapplying your diseases using Plague Strike and Howling Blast, something people are very familiar with. The only complex bit is hitting Plague Leach before this.

    You get a rime proc and PL is off CD? Hit plague leach, plague strike, howling blast.
    Outbreak is off CD and PL is off CD? Hit Plague Leach and then hit Outbreak.

    It only takes maybe 20 mins of dpsing to really get into the rotation. It's really decent and well worth the 2300dps upgrade.
    I'm not sure I'm following how you're coming up with this dps number you're giving for plague leech. You're assuming using PL on cd every single time and obliterate doing more damage than it actually does. Obliterate seems to average about 150k for the very highest parses on fights without damage modifiers. Using PL on cooldown that would be 150k/50 = 3000 dps. But you can't use PL on cooldown every time without screwing other things up. You're clipping at least 1 dot tick off of one of the diseases and may be forced to apply frost fever manually if Rime or outbreak aren't up with PL. Outbreak will only be available every 3rd plague leech if you're using it on cd. You're also forcing yourself to use Plague Strike quicker than you would otherwise need to (which isn't a huge deal, but it's an extra one over a 6 minute fight that you otherwise wouldn't have used and we're really arguing down in the margins where stuff like that counts). Of course you can delay PL to lessen some of these issues, but that also lowers the claimed dps amount a fair bit. Using it twice a minute drops the dps to 2500, using it once a minute with outbreak drops it to 1250. If we're saying UB is 900 dps, PL is maybe a 1600 dps gain, to almost gain at all, and that's still assuming fairly good use of it.

    I'm not arguing that it's perhaps a dps gain, but I'm having trouble seeing how it's as big as being claimed.
    Last edited by Nellise; 2012-11-20 at 02:52 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by GamerLCD View Post
    Using this macro you will pop all of your major cool downs as well as trinkets and racials at the same time. /use 13 and /use 14 represent your trinkets which are the number of the slots in your character profile they represent. It is very important that your stat increasing CDs are casts before Raise the Dead. Your ghoul even in frost, gains a portion of all stats and buffs on you at the time you cast him; thus the more buffs and stat increasing things such as potions on you the more damage your ghoul will do as a result for the 1 minute duration he is out. Pillar of Frost is only a 1 minute CD which means you will be able to use it again before your 2 minute CDs come off CD thus meaning you should always use PoF as soon as it comes off CD. Save a rune if you see it is coming off cool down.
    as off 5.0? your pet now updates stats so this is not needed anymore and would be dps loss if you would wait for POF to use your ghoul.

  12. #32
    Nellise, the difference between PL and UB is based on numerous sims that were run. Of course this assumes perfect play and is only for single target. But yes... it really is that big of a dps difference in most cases.
    Last edited by kaelleria; 2012-11-20 at 03:28 PM.

  13. #33
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    Nellise, the difference between PL and UB is based on numerous sims that were run. Of course this assumes perfect play and is only for single target. But yes... it really is that big of a dps difference in most cases.
    PL goes from 1k dps gain on patchwerk fights to 300 dps loss on heavy movement fights with my actual gear, 50k iterations, with a good player skill (I'm nowhere elite). And we are talking about 76k dps on patchwerk and 60k on heavy movement fights.

    [sarcasm]Yes it's really a BIG dps increase.[/sarcasm]

    But that's not the point tho. They are arguing about this and the fact that the guide is meant to be advanced so even if PL would give 100 dps more than UB it should be considered mandatory in any case.
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  14. #34
    Even in heavy movement situations PL is ahead by quite a bit in Bis gear... like 1.5k DPS ahead.

    Even in my gear PL is still 1k+ ahead on heavy movement fights... Basically if you're confident that you can do PL you should do PL... If you're not then you shouldn't.

    It's the same thing with blood tap... If you can do it without the macro, go for it... If not due to insanity on fights like heroic zorloc, you should just macro it.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    Nellise, the difference between PL and UB is based on numerous sims that were run. Of course this assumes perfect play and is only for single target. But yes... it really is that big of a dps difference in most cases.
    I have a problem trusting sims for something like this that requires millisecond perfection to get right. Sims can easily do that, people can't. The sim can see that the diseases just ticked and can hit PL as soon as that happens and can avoid clipping them perfectly.

    For example, here's the condition I found to use Plague Leech for the sim:
    (cooldown.outbreak.remains<1)|(buff.rime.react&dot.blood_plague.remains<3&(unholy>=1| death>=1)))

    The advice given in this thread of using PL on cooldown already disagrees with how the sim uses it. This is what PowerGamez said to do:
    You get a rime proc and PL is off CD? Hit plague leach, plague strike, howling blast.
    That is not what the sim is doing. It's close, but not correct. The sim is also checking the time left on blood plague and if you have a free rune for Plague Strike before using PL (which is actually probably why Blood Tap works so well). It makes sense what the sim is doing, but it's definitely not easy and can actually lower your dps if you do it incorrectly.

  16. #36
    Of course... Like I said earlier. It's a matter of your confidence you can pull it off... If you can't you're better off using UB until you can train yourself to make it work.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnx- View Post
    Will have to agree with the others, if this is "Advanced DK Guide"
    You are right but I was just stating a point. But I will agree with you that I should have explained why I choose UB over PL and I will do that now.

    As I stated a few posts above, adding another ability in the rotation is something most people are not willing to do especially if it can be a dps loss if they don't do it the right way. Putting PL into the rotation makes it so that you have to re-apply FF with HB and BP with PS way to often thus complicating things. Not only this, but it also means on fights with add phases that I end up having to spend another rune on pestilence when all I had to do was spend no runes on unholy blight and if I had shrooms too then it actually ends up being more dps then PL. To deplete diseases to to get a death rune that you instantly have to spend another just sounds weird to me thus I choose UB.

  18. #38
    The numbers I posted were rough napkin math numbers and general ways to use it. Yes, you have to be more strict in it's use and what resources you have available to fully optimise it's use.

    Full BiS gear you'll be looking at 160K+ avg Oblits.

    3K dps gain is a pretty generous estimate it's probably closer to ~2-2.5K but it's still pretty safe to assume it'll be a small dps upgrade compared to UB.

  19. #39
    I updated this guide with another video explaining the differences between unholy blight and plaque leech and which one would be a better dps increase for your play style.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Nellise View Post
    (cooldown.outbreak.remains<1)|(buff.rime.react&dot.blood_plague.remains<3&(unholy>=1| death>=1)))
    I play DW where it's much easier to manage plague leech, so I haven't kept up with 2h stuff, but I don't understand this. Why would you need a free rune available if you have a rime proc and use Plague Leech? Plague Leech will give you a death rune which you can use to apply Blood Plague. HB with the rime proc for frost fever. Am I missing something here? It's kind of late so it might be something obvious and I just can't see it lol.

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