Experts fear shortage of unprofitable cancer drug.

[Deleted]

Perhaps you could start with investing in a grammar book.

And i'll fund it by selling your organs.

[Banzhe]

Life is shit, money gets you stuff that arent shit.

Said the serf while slaving away the rest of his existence, in the delusion that money is making the world go around while the people behind the big companies were grinning they're asses of.

[Deleted]

Said the serf while slaving away the rest of his existence, in the delusion that money is making the world go around while the people behind the big companies were grinning they're asses of.

Because we all know that the people behind the big companies have a severe lack of money.

[Laize]

still a semantics game. it's a rebranding of the term "loss", plain and simple. and that "cost of opportunity" is assuming a profitable breakthrough in a timely fashion, far from a guarantee. producing the drug is a pretty solid investment compared to the crapshoot that is development. if they dont want to be in that game, then they can allow other manufacturers to make it

No... I'm not sure how to make this clearer.

Let's look at this from a perspective an average person can understand.

You earn $20/hour working for a company.

You're offered 1 hour of overtime this week at time+half ($30).

You opt not to take it. Your opportunity cost for that week is $30 since you had the opportunity to earn more but didn't take it. Your preference for leisure time (Or whatever you opted for) cost you $30.

[smelltheglove]

No... I'm not sure how to make this clearer.

Let's look at this from a perspective an average person can understand.

You earn $20/hour working for a company.

You're offered 1 hour of overtime this week at time+half ($30).

You opt not to take it. Your opportunity cost for that week is $30 since you had the opportunity to earn more but didn't take it. Your preference for leisure time (Or whatever you opted for) cost you $30.

except that is not what is happening. they are saying "producing this drug loses us money", when the truth is "we can make more money making other drugs". there is a major difference between those 2 statements.

and im still curious why other companies that arent into the r&d cant be making it. arent there plenty of companies out there that can produce this stuff that just want to make their money as a pill manufacturer and not a developer?

[conscript]

You know what would be great? One ultra rich billionaire with unimaginable wealth should take a portion of their massive fortune and create a not for profit pharmaceutical company that will produce these sorts of drugs and sell them at cost. You'd have to start with the no longer patent protected medicines but man wouldn't that just be an absolutely huge fuck you to the pharmaceuticals industry making trillions because they are literally the only source for something people need to survive.

[Laize]

except that is not what is happening. they are saying "producing this drug loses us money", when the truth is "we can make more money making other drugs". there is a major difference between those 2 statements.

That's precisely what's happening. They're halting production of a less profitable drug because they can make more from other drugs. They're eliminating the opportunity cost of continued production. They owe it to their shareholders to do exactly that.

and im still curious why other companies that arent into the r&d cant be making it. arent there plenty of companies out there that can produce this stuff that just want to make their money as a pill manufacturer and not a developer?

This is a drug that's been around for 60 years. There's no R&D involved in it. The manufacturers of it are already the generics.

[Deleted]

You know what would be great? One ultra rich billionaire with unimaginable wealth should take a portion of their massive fortune and create a not for profit pharmaceutical company that will produce these sorts of drugs and sell them at cost. You'd have to start with the no longer patent protected medicines but man wouldn't that just be an absolutely huge fuck you to the pharmaceuticals industry making trillions because they are literally the only source for something people need to survive.

Yeah! Let someone else do it!

[Laize]

You know what would be great? One ultra rich billionaire with unimaginable wealth should take a portion of their massive fortune and create a not for profit pharmaceutical company that will produce these sorts of drugs and sell them at cost. You'd have to start with the no longer patent protected medicines but man wouldn't that just be an absolutely huge fuck you to the pharmaceuticals industry making trillions because they are literally the only source for something people need to survive.

Yeah... damn those Pharmaceutical companies and their 15% profit margins and their lifesaving drugs and shit.

[Beefhammer]

Actually I didn't blame the socialist system. I'm simply fairly sure they enact price controls on drugs and services.

It does confuse me as to why there's a shortage in the US or why they don't simply negotiate with the national health systems over there.

Things that are as in demand as this drug don't simply stop getting made unless the company doesn't have price control.

I can tell you that American health insurance companies regularly deny patients drugs and procedures that cost a lot of money. Especially if they can send them to much less expensive treatments that may not work and/or shorten their life expectancy. I used to work for United Health and listened and heard stories from coworkers about this. So if a large enough pool of patients are denied this drug(not saying this is the case) it will not sell, they will slow down production, lower its price to move inventory, possibly to a point where profitability is out the window and be low on supply when demand picks back up.

[Spectral]

Scientists... vaccines.

Please don't go there... Or I'm going to have to crack open a can of science on this thread.

I'm curious where this is going. You know I'm an immunologist, right?

[Beefhammer]

That's precisely what's happening. They're halting production of a less profitable drug because they can make more from other drugs. They're eliminating the opportunity cost of continued production. They owe it to their shareholders to do exactly that.

This is what I have an issue with. Not profit, but things like essential health care and medicines that work for huge profits. Here in the US we get gouged upwards of 1000% for prescription drugs when they are being sold elsewhere in the world for pennies per pill. I know it has to do with greedy fro profit insurance. But we have no clue if their new drug that will make them a profit will work as well without a long list of potential side effects and drug contradictions. If this is the only manufacturer, pass along the recipe and let someone else make it.

[Spectral]

You know what would be great? One ultra rich billionaire with unimaginable wealth should take a portion of their massive fortune and create a not for profit pharmaceutical company that will produce these sorts of drugs and sell them at cost. You'd have to start with the no longer patent protected medicines but man wouldn't that just be an absolutely huge fuck you to the pharmaceuticals industry making trillions because they are literally the only source for something people need to survive.

Bill Gates funds massive amounts of not for profit research. The NIH funds massive amounts of not for profit research. Tons of life saving drugs are produced for little or no profit by non-profit companies. You're asking for things that already exist.

Eliminating patents is just about the absolute worst idea I can imagine. It completely disincentivizes innovation. Do that and the only innovation will be from government and charity.

[Laize]

I can tell you that American health insurance companies regularly deny patients drugs and procedures that cost a lot of money. Especially if they can send them to much less expensive treatments that may not work and/or shorten their life expectancy. I used to work for United Health and listened and heard stories from coworkers about this. So if a large enough pool of patients are denied this drug(not saying this is the case) it will not sell, they will slow down production, lower its price to move inventory, possibly to a point where profitability is out the window and be low on supply when demand picks back up.

You'd have a point if you weren't wrong.

Health insurers pay 13 out of every 14 claims filed... and more than half of denied claims (Which is only 1 in 14, remember) are approved on appeal.

That's a 96% approval rating in case you're bad at math.

And they don't dive into Scrooge McDuck-esque Money Bins either.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 12:23 AM ----------

This is what I have an issue with. Not profit, but things like essential health care and medicines that work for huge profits. Here in the US we get gouged upwards of 1000% for prescription drugs when they are being sold elsewhere in the world for pennies per pill. I know it has to do with greedy fro profit insurance. But we have no clue if their new drug that will make them a profit will work as well without a long list of potential side effects and drug contradictions. If this is the only manufacturer, pass along the recipe and let someone else make it.

You don't get gouged upward of 1000% for prescription drugs.

You've never read any reliable source that tells you that because it simply doesn't happen.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 12:26 AM ----------

I'm curious where this is going. You know I'm an immunologist, right?

I dunno. Do you know I'm a landlord and day trader?

I was afraid you were going to say vaccines (especially those containing thimerosal) caused shit like Autism and I was going to have to go punch a baby.

[smelltheglove]

Eliminating patents is just about the absolute worst idea I can imagine. It completely disincentivizes innovation. Do that and the only innovation will be from government and charity.

personally id be more for a longer patent, with no renewal for "other uses". imo they should get a period where they own it solely, but the search for other uses causes trouble and shenanigans. if direct r&d costs can be demonstrated accurately, id also be behind a variable patent duration based on dev cost and demand. i dont want to stifle research, but id like to cut out some of the potentially harmful bullshit

[Spectral]

I dunno. Do you know I'm a landlord and day trader?

Nope! But I'll probably remember that now.

I was afraid you were going to say vaccines (especially those containing thimerosal) caused shit like Autism and I was going to have to go punch a baby.

Yeah... no. I was being completely facetious in that line of posts. I consider vaccines one of the five best inventions of the 20th century.

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 07:32 PM ----------

personally id be more for a longer patent, with no renewal for "other uses". imo they should get a period where they own it solely, but the search for other uses causes trouble and shenanigans. if direct r&d costs can be demonstrated accurately, id also be behind a variable patent duration based on dev cost and demand. i dont want to stifle research, but id like to cut out some of the potentially harmful bullshit

Indeed, I'd like to see a number of changes in the patent system, I don't think it's very good at all. It's just the idea of disposing of patents that I'm wholesale against.

[Beefhammer]

You'd have a point if you weren't wrong.

Health insurers pay 13 out of every 14 claims filed... and more than half of denied claims (Which is only 1 in 14, remember) are approved on appeal.

That's a 96% approval rating in case you're bad at math.

And they don't dive into Scrooge McDuck-esque Money Bins either.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 12:23 AM ----------



You don't get gouged upward of 1000% for prescription drugs.

You've never read any reliable source that tells you that because it simply doesn't happen.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 12:26 AM ----------



I dunno. Do you know I'm a landlord and day trader?

I was afraid you were going to say vaccines (especially those containing thimerosal) caused shit like Autism and I was going to have to go punch a baby.

Not paying a claim is not the same as not paying for one service when there is a cheaper alternative. The claim still gets paid it's just not what the doctor originally wanted. My ex wife was on a mood stabilizer that without insurance would have cost us $200 a pill $6000 a month. We went to Canada and got the whole script for $75. DOn't tell me we are not gouged. We have bus tours in Metro Detroit that "tour" London and Windsor, Ontario so they can get seniors chap drugs that are way over priced here.

[Tradewind]

Not paying a claim is not the same as not paying for one service when there is a cheaper alternative. The claim still gets paid it's just not what the doctor originally wanted. My ex wife was on a mood stabilizer that without insurance would have cost us $200 a pill $6000 a month. We went to Canada and got the whole script for $75. DOn't tell me we are not gouged. We have bus tours in Metro Detroit that "tour" London and Windsor, Ontario so they can get seniors chap drugs that are way over priced here.

As a Canadian I am actually mad at that...since my taxes actually subsidize those cheap prescription drugs. But I don't do it for tourists :P

[Laize]

Not paying a claim is not the same as not paying for one service when there is a cheaper alternative. The claim still gets paid it's just not what the doctor originally wanted. My ex wife was on a mood stabilizer that without insurance would have cost us $200 a pill $6000 a month. We went to Canada and got the whole script for $75. DOn't tell me we are not gouged. We have bus tours in Metro Detroit that "tour" London and Windsor, Ontario so they can get seniors chap drugs that are way over priced here.

That doesn't mean the drug didn't cost $6000 a month. It means the (Canadian) government paid $5925.

[Beefsquatch]

And people wonder why those craaaaazy folk believe that these companies are holding back a cure for HIV and such because there are is no money in cures. While I do believe we don't have it, situations like this make me think about it more. Disgusted is an understatement to how I feel about this.