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  1. #61
    some nice e rage right there

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    Except in terms of WoW iLvL there is a much larger gap, 10-12% on average. It's also much more feasible to obtain a full set of Heroic gear in a very short amount of time, as opposed to Ascended gear. You're comparing apples to oranges...
    Forgive me, oh wise one, for using the word Viable instead of "Valid". But you know what? Point still stands. The difference between the shown Exotic Gear with a Gem and the shown Ascended Gear, per ring, is 5 Power, 5 Precision, 3% Magic Find (This is not even counting the possible bonus stats given to you by the Infusion Slot).

    Go back to tier 10 heroic gear in Icecrown Citadel. How much of an upgrade was it? 10 Haste rating, 10-14 spell power depending on the slot. A couple pieces doesn't look like a big deal. Put that over the course of your entire gearset, and there is a sizable difference, which is why it's done.

    It's not Apples to Oranges, it's the Golden Apples to the Red Apples. And you're blindfolded, telling me one's a pear because it tastes slightly different.
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2012-11-20 at 02:23 AM.
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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Forgive me, oh wise one, for using the word Viable instead of "Valid". But you know what? Point still stands. The difference between the shown Exotic Gear with a Gem and the shown Ascended Gear, per ring, is 5 Power, 5 Precision, 3% Magic Find.

    Go back to tier 10 heroic gear in Icecrown Citadel. How much of an upgrade was it? 10 Haste rating, 10-14 spell power depending on the slot. A couple pieces doesn't look like a big deal. Put that over the course of your entire gearset, and there is a sizable difference, which is why it's done.

    It's not Apples to Oranges, it's the Golden Apples to the Red Apples. And you're blindfolded, telling me one's a pear because it tastes slightly different.
    Be patronizing if you want, but you still don't get it. It was still an upgrade of 12%+ or more from just ilvl 264 to 277, up to 14% on some items in terms of primary stats. That makes a difference in a game like WoW where everything is tuned around having certain stat plateaus satisfied...having the dps/healing throughput/tank HP etc to complete it. Which, thus far, doesn't factor into GW2 at all, that is until you start handling Agony.

    You're right in that a larger amount of it adds up, but you're not going to be getting a large amount of Ascended gear for a very, very, long time. Even right now you're limited to a back that you can craft to get beyond level 10 before you even begin to see ring drops. At this point we don't know how long it is even until armor starts appearing and what it will take to get it. Also if it has rune slots or not. But the fact remains they exist for infusion slots, to add Agony Resistance, which has only one purpose, progressing through Fractals. If the armor does in fact not have rune slots, then all of this whining is for nothing because Exotics will still be better overall for everything outside of Fractals.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by zurgs View Post
    Because Arenanet spent years selling the game in everything from their manifesto to interviews / Q&A sessions, that "progression" would be horizontal (titles, cosmetic gear, achievemetns, etc), that there would not be a gear treadmill, in the space of 3 months they have done a total u-turn, so people feel they have been lied to / falsely advertised to, etc and are rightly annoyed.
    Would you please provide a link and reference to where ArenaNet stated the progression would be horizontal? In looking back to the GW2 manifesto trailer, I don't see that. Colin Johanson stated that ArenaNet doesn't want the player to grind, is that what you're referring to?

  5. #65
    The stat upgrade being 12% instead of 7-8% (what Guru's threads were making them out to be) makes that big of a difference? In a game that was sold on the premise it was never going to have gear escalation?

    You should also take note, however, that they're slowly nerfing and not buffing each rune-set. Speculation on my part, of course, but it seems like they're trying to bring them in line so people don't notice "too big a loss" when going with the higher statted gear. Making the rune choice inconsequential. Considering quite a few builds are already running Divinity Runes as soon as you can afford them, or gems if you can't, it kind of is pushing the idea that "This gear will be better, period". Speculation, natch, but it's there nonetheless.


    The amount of time it takes to get a set, or the amount of time before it even becomes available is completely irrelevant. Its presence alone is enough to warrant an objection to what is essentially power-creep.


    And I was saving the Agony/Infusion factor for later, because it feels really good to be back in 2006 with resistance mechanics aga-- wait.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 07:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
    Would you please provide a link and reference to where ArenaNet stated the progression would be horizontal? In looking back to the GW2 manifesto trailer, I don't see that. Colin Johanson stated that ArenaNet doesn't want the player to grind, is that what you're referring to?
    First one I thought of was this, with the emphasis being mine.
    Fun impacts loot collection: The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.
    http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-...cess#more-8572
    Back in June.
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2012-11-20 at 02:48 AM.
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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    No I ignored the rest of it in my response because it's more uneducated derp and didn't warrant a response.
    Translated - you don't have an answer for it, because you are either ignorant on the matter or simply want to stand there with your fingers in your ears stamping your feet.

    Anyway, time for some education, this is what Colin Johanson (he is the lead dev for the content team) stated on the Arenanet blog before release:

    "We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too."

    source - http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-...asures-success

    This and similar messages were repeated in many interviews, videos, Q&A sessions & in their manifesto pre-release, by multiple high ranking Anet personel (including co-founders/game director), I am sure you can find the thread in the GW2 general discussion forum for more, they sold a game on one premise and 3 months in have done a u-turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    If you're outnumbered, small increments in stats on gear isn't going to turn the tide.
    Sure it does I've won & lost encounters by sometimes tiny margins (under 100 HP even), the difference is only going to get worse as they add higher levels of infusions and ascended items to more slots, that was not the game sold to me by the frankly dishonest Arenanet / NCSoft.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 02:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Prepared View Post
    Would you please provide a link and reference to where ArenaNet stated the progression would be horizontal? In looking back to the GW2 manifesto trailer, I don't see that. Colin Johanson stated that ArenaNet doesn't want the player to grind, is that what you're referring to?
    See my reply to Tradewind above this, further to that go to the GW2 general discussion forum and read through the relevant thread, people have posted links to other examples, you can't miss it, it has about 10,000 replies.

    P.S - I'm not sure whether Anet use the term horizontal, but that is what everyone else calls it, the point being before they released the game, they stated numerous times there was not going to be a mandatory gear grind (because exotics would have the same stats as legendaries), that the "grind" was on optional things like wanting a certain cosmetic, gaining titles, achievements, etc.
    Last edited by zurgs; 2012-11-20 at 03:35 AM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by zurgs View Post
    Translated - you don't have an answer for it, because you either ignorant on the matter or simply want to stand there with your fingers in your ears stamping your feet.

    Anyway, time for some education, this is what Colin Johanson (he is the lead dev for the content team) stated on the Arenanet blog before release:

    "We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too."

    source - http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-...asures-success

    This and similar messages were repeated in many interviews, videos, Q&A sessions & in their manifesto pre-release, by multiple high ranking Anet personel (including co-founders/game director), I am sure you can find the thread in the GW2 general discussion forum for more, they sold a game on one premise and 3 months in have done a u-turn.



    Sure it does I've won & lost encounters by sometimes tiny margins (under 100 HP even), the difference is only going to get worse as they add higher levels of infusions and ascended items to more slots, that was not the game sold to me by the frankly dishonest Arenanet / NCSoft.
    Grats you can't even read the shit you quote. Specifically where it says, optional....where people who want to chase prestigious gear can do so, but are under no obligation to.

    Whatever, running explorables right now so I don't have time to argue with people who quit the game but still whine about it.

  8. #68
    Grats you can't even read the shit you quote. Specifically where it says, optional....where people who want to chase prestigious gear can do so, but are under no obligation to.
    Wow, did you even read it?

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Wow, did you even read it?
    Yes? Next question.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    Grats you can't even read the shit you quote. Specifically where it says, optional....where people who want to chase prestigious gear can do so, but are under no obligation to.

    Whatever, running explorables right now so I don't have time to argue with people who quit the game but still whine about it.
    Oh my word, try learning to read, the bit in bold is a clue.

    P.S - Also on a more PvE note, you might want to read up on what a gating mechanism is, because 'agony' is one and then see if you can work out why a gear dependent gating mechnism is directly opposed to what I quoted from Mr Johanson.
    Last edited by zurgs; 2012-11-20 at 03:52 AM.

  11. #71
    Wow, so now it's come to this...you have quotes copy pasted to you and still deny that the quotes even say what they say.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Wow, so now it's come to this...you have quotes copy pasted to you and still deny that the quotes even say what they say.
    No but when you bold only one part of it and ignore the rest of it, kind of makes you look like a tool.

  13. #73
    No but when you bold only one part of it and ignore the rest of it, kind of makes you look like a tool.
    "No" nothing...you're blatantly just ignoring the quote. This is completely absurd. If you're going to just sit there and deny that they said what they said or these quotes are from them or that this change is a shift in the stated design of the game, then just say so.

    It's like you have a phobia of just admitting that this is a change. You can still play the game, you can still like the game, admitting the change doesn't mean you have to stop liking the game. But right now you just have your fingers in your ears saying, "NO NO NO NO" over and over.

  14. #74
    No, I just don't think it's as big of a deal as you people are making it out to be...

  15. #75
    Don't think it's a big deal even though a lead developer is stating exactly the opposite of the current situation?

    Doesn't seem to be a case of player making this gating mechanic out to be anything-- the developers themselves are stating it for us.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 12:43 AM ----------

    Side note: Why do people dislike resistance mechanics in stat driven games? It makes no sense as depth of play in such games is based on manipulation of those stats.

    If I have 10 factors to contend with and balance that is deeper gameplay/consideration than if I had 5 or 2. In stat driven games, of course.

    I actually greatly dislike the lessening of these stats in modern games. Thus why I enjoy Path of Exile, Rift, Everquest or Radiant Arcana. I love having to consider these variables carefully. Wouldn't be playing such games if I didn't-- I'd b playing Diablo 3 or World of Warcraft for streamlined simplicity.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-11-20 at 06:32 AM.

  16. #76
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Side note: Why do people dislike resistance mechanics in stat driven games? It makes no sense as depth of play in such games is based on manipulation of those stats.
    I personally don't have an issue with them, but I believe that any form of "resistance" that is, something that reduces the total damage done by a given value or percentage should have a converse "penetration" stat. It's no fun if it's simply a way to reduce player damage. If player damage levels are a problem relative to the health or defenses of an enemy, then that's what needs to be looked at. Adding a "spell resistance" or "damage reduction" value without giving the players ways to get around it just annoying.


    If I have 10 factors to content with and balance that is deeper gameplay/consideration than if I had 5 or 2. In stat driven games, of course.
    Not necessarily no. "Deep" gameplay means a lot of things to a lot of people. It doesn't just mean more stats to contend with(though it does to some). It could come in the form of more mechanics, more complicated mechanics, adds, and so on. 10 factors as opposed to one or two also makes balanced gameplay more difficult to achieve, and severely unbalanced gameplay because certain stats hold a more significant role for one class or against another does not create "deeper" gameplay. In such a case "deeper" gameplay would likely be created based on fewer stats and more interesting mechanics based on them.

    Compared to some other games, I feel that GW2 actually uses fewer stats, even fewer than WoW currently does. While some people find number-crunching in games to be a lot of fun, I don't think that number-crunching is a good basis for deeper gameplay.

    I actually greatly dislike the lessening of these stats in modern games. Thus why I enjoy Path of Exile, Rift, Everquest or Radiant Arcana. I love having to consider these variables carefully. Wouldn't be playing such games if I didn't-- I'd b playing Diablo 3 or World of Warcraft for streamlined simplicity.
    I think it's a given that different people like different things. Games should always seek to find ways to balance out people's likes.
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  17. #77
    If I have 10 factors to content with and balance that is deeper gameplay/consideration than if I had 5 or 2. In stat driven games, of course.
    The problem that people (generally) have with resist stats is that they're outside the normal stat interactions in most cases. Sure, as a Healer in WoW I might have Intellect, Haste, Mastery, Spirit and Crit to work with and balance to my taste and optimize...and then I have Shadow Resist.

    Why do I have Shadow Resist? Presumably there's a fight that says, "Have this much Shadow Resist, or screw you." So...I have that much. It doesn't interact with any of my other stats, it doesn't even impact my role. There's really no interaction at all from me as the player.

    All it does is subtract from my role and force me to farm a particular set of gear, and only for this one fight.

    Now, if the usefulness of resistances were more widespread, and there wasn't such a hard requirement on when you had to use it and games were more oriented toward personal survival being more important than role performance and it didn't take away so much from the item budget and....you get the idea. There's a lot that would have to change just to properly accommodate resistances and make them...well, not suck.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2012-11-20 at 06:07 AM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    Adding a "spell resistance" or "damage reduction" value without giving the players ways to get around it just annoying.
    Why?

    What makes the function of mitigation more annoying the function of a DPS stat. That are essentially the same thing. It just a change in the direction of the boss/enemy health bar.

    Is it a purely psychological thing such as in Asura's Wrath?

    Elaborate.

    Not necessarily no.
    It can only be "no" if the gameplay is not based on stat gain/loss.

    While I agree that GW2 is far less dependent on opposing stat outcomes than say, Path of Exile or League of Legends. Damage in/out is a factor partly determined by stats all the same.

    And in games where stats manipulation is the principle gameplay and drive than it makes no sense to be opposed to the inclusion of more stats.

    Where to use Path of Exile as an example again, more stats can only deepen the gameplay presented to the player. Because the only method of expressing gameplay is via stats.

    "Deep" gameplay means a lot of things to a lot of people.
    It can't. Depth of play can only come for the systems and rules of the game.

    I don't think that number-crunching is a good basis for deeper gameplay.
    This could not be objectively true. Entire genres are built around "number crunch", so to speak. Or manipulating the outcome of numerical values in your favor within a system expressly designed to cheat you.

    From pen & paper's THAC0 to modern day X-com.

    I think it's a given that different people like different things. Games should always seek to find ways to balance out people's likes.
    Noted. But I am trying to understand what would make someone interested in game where ALL the gameplay is based on numerical outcomes +/- to be against more variables in the dice roll.

    It makes no sense.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 02:55 AM ----------

    The problem that people (generally) have with resist stats is that they're outside the normal stat interactions in most cases. Sure, as a Healer in WoW I might have Intellect, Haste, Mastery, Spirit and Crit to work with and balance to my taste and optimize...and then I have Shadow Resist.

    All it does is subtract from my role and force me to farm a particular set of gear, and only for this one fight.
    These are the interesting parts.

    Why?

    I understand that the value of say haste might be more commonplace than Shadow Resistance. However the gameplay is based on meeting X criteria Y situation(s).

    What X is should be irrelevant to you. As the value of X is required as minimum goal in situation Y.

    It seems more a personal feeling that Haste [or whatever] should be "your stat". But in gameplay terms your stat should be whatever is required for Y.

  19. #79
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Why?

    What makes the function of mitigation more annoying the function of a DPS stat. That are essentially the same thing. It just a change in the direction of the boss/enemy health bar.

    Is it a purely psychological thing such as in Asura's Wrath?

    Elaborate.
    I wasn't comparing it to a DPS stat. Damage reduction stats such as armor and resistance make players feel lame, especially if they have no way to counter it and it's randomly generated. Predictability is as important as randomization, this is classic TTRPG logic. Take for example, the d20 roll. It is random...but within a constrained range(1-20) and can be augmented by +/- alterations by the players.

    It can only be "no" if the gameplay is not based on stat gain/loss.

    While I agree that GW2 is far less dependent on opposing stat outcomes than say, Path of Exile or League of Legends. Damage in/out is a factor partly determined by stats all the same.

    And in games where stats manipulation is the principle gameplay and drive than it makes no sense to be opposed to the inclusion of more stats.
    Yes, it does. Because an increase in the number of stats does not directly correlate to an increase in gameplay quality or game enjoyment. I play D&D on a regular basis, among other TTRPGs. Lots, or few numbers have almost no bearing on the quality of play.

    Where to use Path of Exile as an example again, more stats can only deepen the gameplay presented to the player. Because the only method of expressing gameplay is via stats.
    This is one of those bell curve things. It is a not a perfect linear relation.

    It can't. Depth of play can only come for the systems and rules of the game.
    I'm sorry, but unless you have some sort of statistical backup to this, what you are saying here is your opinion.

    This could not be objectively true. Entire genres are built around "number crunch", so to speak. Or manipulating the outcome of numerical values in your favor within a system expressly designed to cheat you.

    From pen & paper's THAC0 to modern day X-com.
    Perhaps I should have clarified. I do not think that number manipulation alone is grounds for better gameplay. There is a happy medium where there are enough stats to effectively represent in-game variables, but not so many as to overwhelm players, or too few to lose detail and some level of depth. A lot of people don't like THAC0 at all.


    Noted. But I am trying to understand what would make someone interested in game where ALL the gameplay is based on numerical outcomes +/- to be against more variables in the dice roll.

    It makes no sense.
    Pure RNG is not fun, it's boring. There's essentially no input from the players in pure dice rolls, and when the entirety of the game is decided by something outside the player's control, then that's boring. It's like if someone said you were playing football by watching someone else run down the field.
    Last edited by smrund; 2012-11-20 at 08:08 AM.
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  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The problem that people (generally) have with resist stats is that they're outside the normal stat interactions in most cases. Sure, as a Healer in WoW I might have Intellect, Haste, Mastery, Spirit and Crit to work with and balance to my taste and optimize...and then I have Shadow Resist.

    Why do I have Shadow Resist? Presumably there's a fight that says, "Have this much Shadow Resist, or screw you." So...I have that much. It doesn't interact with any of my other stats, it doesn't even impact my role. There's really no interaction at all from me as the player.

    All it does is subtract from my role and force me to farm a particular set of gear, and only for this one fight.

    Now, if the usefulness of resistances were more widespread, and there wasn't such a hard requirement on when you had to use it and games were more oriented toward personal survival being more important than role performance and it didn't take away so much from the item budget and....you get the idea. There's a lot that would have to change just to properly accommodate resistances and make them...well, not suck.
    Why even the need for resistances in the first place in FOTM? Is Anet telling us they can't make a progressively harder dungeon with progressively better rewards without resistance?

    Resistance = bad idea, pure and simple.

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