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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I wasn't comparing it to a DPS stat.
    It doesn't matter what kind of stat it is. It's a stat.

    A stat needed for a certain event or threshold. That's all that matters in gameplay terms.

    Take for example, the d20 roll. It is random...but within a constrained range(1-20) and can be augmented by +/- alterations by the players.
    Isn't this essentially at work under the hood of many CRPGs?

    That +10 to armor is just as well -10AC.

    Yes, it does. Because an increase in the number of stats does not directly correlate to an increase in gameplay quality or game enjoyment.
    Not quality- too subjective. Depth of play is not. Depth of play can not logically go down by adding more stats to a stat driven rule system.

    Unless for example a single or set of stats [attributes] undermine or contradict another. Though that would simply be an issue of poor design. Not a particular stat, resistance in this case, being "bad" in of itself.

    What I am driving at here is implementation. I don't see any reason for players to balk at the concept as a matter of course.

    This is one of those bell curve things. It is a not a perfect linear relation.
    Perhaps not. I don't want to bring in specific MMOs into the discussion because things go off track easily.

    Though it should be consistent in any rules system based on stat +/-. Because the only way one can defeat the fire elemental with no legs is to meet X fire resistance, Y damage output, K blahblah, etc.

    The gameplay isn't based, and doesn't even allow option, having a conversation or trapping the fire elemental dude in a bag of holding via ingenuity.

    I'm sorry, but unless you have some sort of statistical backup to this, what you are saying here is your opinion.
    It's not. Gameplay is objective. I don't care about enjoyment at all.

    The game presents a set of rules. Players work within those rules to accomplish a goal. The more variables those rules allow the greater the degree of options a player has to accomplish those goals.

    In the case of EQ and the like those rules are completely numbers driven. One can not even interact with the game in a way that is not driven by stats in many cases.

    Perhaps I should have clarified. I do not think that number manipulation alone is grounds for better gameplay. There is a happy medium where there are enough stats to effectively represent in-game variables, but not so many as to overwhelm players, or too few to lose detail and some level of depth.
    I don't have too much argument with that honestly. And would tend to agree for the most part. Noting that some games or rules systems are driven by different factors.

    Many of the MMOs of modern era are drive by the factor of stats/gear.

    There's essentially no input from the players in pure dice rolls, and when the entirety of the game is decided by something outside the player's control, then that's boring.
    But one is influencing the outcome of the dice. That is the entire point of these stats in many cases. +5 to your roll one way or the other. It doesn't matter if players find it fun or boring. In gameplay terms that is how you are expressing a sword swing, parry or constitution for a certain condition.

    It's like if someone said you were playing football by watching someone else run down the field.
    What if the game one was playing was not predicated on running down the field but on creating the variables that make running down the field a success.

    That is a valid gameplay model.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-11-20 at 09:12 AM.

  2. #82
    I think the problem is that there are two different aspects:

    1) The gear is better. That has an aspect of the "gear treadmill" in it. No one can dispute that.

    2) Is the gear required to play all of the content. No, I don't think any can dispute this either. There is an exception here, and that's the agony mechanic. The exception is that people won't be able to do the same content on a higher level until they have completed the easier levels first. That will be a natural progression. I can't log off today and come back on in 6 months and try and do level 40 of fractals. But that's level 40 of the same dungeons. I can still experience the content, just not at the high levels.

    Yes, it's a change in the A/Net mantra but I still don't believe it impacts players to the extent that some are complaining about, if at all.

    The problem is this. There is a large variety of people playing the game. Some people are complaining that the content is too easy, others that it's too difficult. Some are saying that there is plenty to do, others say that there is nothing to do. A/Net are trying to balance the game to applease everyone and it's not easy.

    To all of those complaining about the Ascended gear. How would you propose that A/Net add longevity to the game? How can they, with limited resources because all companies have that restriction, create a system where players can repeat the same content and still feel some kind of accomplishment without adding something like agony? As I said in another post, there are only so many boss skills that you can add to a fight before it becomes too complex.

    People are more organised then they ever were when it comes to MMO games. Teamspeak, Mumble, etc are now standard practice, even for dungeons. This organisation cost WOW a large number of subscribers with Firelands (I know because I saw all of my friends quit). The balanced the fights around the highly organised guilds to the extent that a lot of casual raiders couldn't handle it. A/Net are in a difficult position. How do they answer the calls for tougher fights without having the same problem?

  3. #83
    These are the interesting parts.

    Why?

    I understand that the value of say haste might be more commonplace than Shadow Resistance. However the gameplay is based on meeting X criteria Y situation(s).

    What X is should be irrelevant to you. As the value of X is required as minimum goal in situation Y.

    It seems more a personal feeling that Haste [or whatever] should be "your stat". But in gameplay terms your stat should be whatever is required for Y.
    Well, once again, because they're uninteresting stats and have historically only been used as a gating mechanism. (Farm a bunch of it before you can do X boss, just because we said so.)

    If they were presented differently, implemented differently, whatever...then yes, it might be interesting to balance how much resistance you have versus other stats. Especially for tanks (I think Rift puts a big focus on resistance % for tanks?) But that's just not the case right now in most games, instead it's just a stat that does nothing 99% of the time and is a gating mechanism the other 1%.

    This organisation cost WOW a large number of subscribers with Firelands (I know because I saw all of my friends quit). The balanced the fights around the highly organised guilds to the extent that a lot of casual raiders couldn't handle it.
    I still think it had more to do with Firelands being a tad boring than being too hard....Firelands was one of the easier raid tiers (aside from H-Ragnaros) and even my friends in casual guilds got to 6/7H.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2012-11-20 at 02:06 PM.

  4. #84
    I'm on Tarnished Coast. I haven't seen anyone in the game complaining about the new Ascended armor or fractals dungeon. It seems the only people complaining are the ones on the forums. To be honest, they haven't made an impact on how full our server is. If I hadn't read the forums, I wouldn't have known they left.

  5. #85
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    They added a new tier of gear and scaling difficulty so that there would be at least some form of end game. As it stands, you can get full exotic gear in a week after hitting 80 by running dungeons. Hell, that's what I did. I don't do fractals for the gear anyways, I find the dungeons themselves fun as hell.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I still think it had more to do with Firelands being a tad boring than being too hard....Firelands was one of the easier raid tiers (aside from H-Ragnaros) and even my friends in casual guilds got to 6/7H.
    You may want to look at numbers for the entry level bosses from wowprogress.com: 84k guilds killed Marrowgar, 71k guilds killed Magmaw, 65k guilds killed Shannox, 63k guilds killed Morchok. The big loss, of course, occurred between T10 and T11, but overall WoW seems to have lost about a quarter of its raiding population over the course of Cataclysm. It is relatively irrelevant what you and your friends (or I and mine) think about the difficulty of the content: When Blizzard bumped the difficulty level for 10-player raids from being below that of 25-player raid levels to be on par, they did exclude a large number of players who just couldn't handle that.

    And, mind you, these are numbers after nerfs. Right now, we have less than 30k guilds who actually have a normal mode Stone Guards kill. We'll likely see more once the nerfs are being phased in, but at the moment, we're probably having less than half a million people outside China who are raiding actively. Organized progression PvE is simply not an activity with a lot of mass appeal.

  7. #87
    I really wish I didn't have to explain why using wowprogress as a census tool is flawed every single time the topic of raiding comes up around here. =(

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I really wish I didn't have to explain why using wowprogress as a census tool is flawed every single time the topic of raiding comes up around here. =(
    Which is why I was comparing relative numbers (which should not be affected much by selection bias) and made generous assumptions for it undercounting.

    In any event, it's certainly better than any anecdotal data you may have.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I still think it had more to do with Firelands being a tad boring than being too hard....Firelands was one of the easier raid tiers (aside from H-Ragnaros) and even my friends in casual guilds got to 6/7H.
    Was that before or after the nerfs? My whole guild literally dissipated. We had a lot of fun during ICC. It would take us a couple of weeks but we would progress past a boss, etc. Cata changed a lot of that. The problems started with Magmaw. It's exactly what people were complaining about with GW2 bosses one shotting people. The fights started to have too many points of failure. One person makes a mistake and it's a wipe. We often ended Lady DW with a couple of players standing in the beginning. About 8 weeks on Shannox and a few on Beth and it was over. I played through DS but I was 1 of 3/4 left. The rest of the people all quit.

    Boss fights must be interesting, but they should also be a bit forgiving. Losing a player should not spell the end of the fight. That's why I like the situation in GW2 where there are no enrages. It's still possible to finish with 4 (or even 1 if it's for a short time). You should be able to make a call. "We have 3 people left, lets ignore the adds and try and kill the boss." or "Maybe we can get one to kite the adds around and the other two focus on the boss." or even "We can still fight normally it will just take a bit longer.".

  10. #90
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    I like the fact that there are new dungeons; as in new maps, new bosses, new encounters.

    I couldn't care less to do the same instance over and over to beat an artificial / gimmick mechanic called Agony.
    That in my mind is as pointless as it gets... is there other mechanics coming at play at "higher difficulties"?
    From my understanding "no".

    You need infusions just to survive an ever present AoE (for lack of a better term).
    Can I react to it / nullify it / mitigate it in some other way? through "skill"? No, I can only outgear it, the rest of the encounter remains the same.

    Bottom-line (and this is entirely my personal take on it although that shouldn't need saying):
    As long as they feed me content and I have something to do I'm going to ignore gimmick mechanics like Agony and all it entails.
    If said gimmick becomes their way of "cheap" updates... I already got my money's worth, they lose any potential cash purchases as I'm just dropping the game.

    Simple as that

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    Boss fights must be interesting, but they should also be a bit forgiving. Losing a player should not spell the end of the fight.
    The problem is more that there is a really wide spectrum of proficiency among players and most MMOs only account for a fairly narrow part of that spectrum. So, the above is not really a universal solution, either: It makes the fight more interesting if you're struggling, but more boring if you aren't. And the at most 2-3 difficulty levels that you find in MMOs these days don't really do a good job of accounting for a sufficiently broad part of the overall spectrum.

  12. #92
    Was that before or after the nerfs? My whole guild literally dissipated. We had a lot of fun during ICC. It would take us a couple of weeks but we would progress past a boss, etc. Cata changed a lot of that. The problems started with Magmaw. It's exactly what people were complaining about with GW2 bosses one shotting people. The fights started to have too many points of failure. One person makes a mistake and it's a wipe. We often ended Lady DW with a couple of players standing in the beginning. About 8 weeks on Shannox and a few on Beth and it was over. I played through DS but I was 1 of 3/4 left. The rest of the people all quit.
    Well, to be honest I would write up a bit of discussion about my feelings in regards to Cataclysm normal and heroic, but I don't want it to start looking like a pissing match, which is invariably where these things go. It'll suffice to say that I loved Tier 11 and thought most it could actually have been harder. Tier 12 on the other hand was pretty easy, but a goddamned snoozefest on most of the fights.

    Boss fights must be interesting, but they should also be a bit forgiving. Losing a player should not spell the end of the fight. That's why I like the situation in GW2 where there are no enrages
    Enrage timers are a double edged sword I think. The downside is that yes, losing a few people early in a really close fight generally means you lose, no matter how flawlessly the survivors play. (Although if it's a tough fight and you lose some people early, I guess you kinda deserve to wipe?)

    On the other hand, enrage timers create a situation where DPS performance actually matters and raid composition can't just be cheesed with 18 healers. (Yes, people used to do such shenanigans.) Some DPS players actually appreciate the enrage mechanic because it encourages groups to actually bring more DPS players and gives DPS players a more important role rather than just being the guy that does damage while the tanks and healers carry the fight.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 06:55 PM ----------

    The problem is more that there is a really wide spectrum of proficiency among players and most MMOs only account for a fairly narrow part of that spectrum.
    What I never get about players attitudes toward MMO development is that somehow it's acceptable for a single player game to have easy parts and really, really ball busting parts, but an MMO absolutely must be this featureless, bland bowl of mush or else risk having some piece of content somewhere that someone will be unhappy with, or see as "not for them".

    Clock Tower in GW2 for example. Challenging? Sure. But people were so maaaaaaaaad about it. Why? Why can't we have challenges? Why must everything be so damn mediocre? I mean, I didn't complain that Pumpkin Carving was simple and boring. Great, let people roam around and just click stuff, but why are challenges so bad? I hate how MMO's in general just seem to be moving slowly but surely toward this Farmville style where all that matters is that you log in and tend to your crops (dailies) or something. =/

    And yet, it's ok for single player games to still be tough....Super Mario World can still have the tough secret levels and no one whines, but put a dragon in an MMO that takes some effort to kill and people act like the developers are killing the game. =O

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I never know what to think...one thread people will say that if you're bored you "went too fast" and the game doesn't have enough content to support you. In another thread people will rave about how much content there is.

    Me? I wish I knew where all this "content" is that I hear people like you raving about. I mean, there's "stuff" around, but unless I turn into a compulsory completionist, very little of it is actual content that I want to sit down and do. Now, I'm not going to say that no one likes it, because that's obviously untrue. But I just don't see where all this content is.

    I'm sure this is where someone will chime in with a list of such things as "map completion" and "grinding for legendary"...which are about as good excuses for "content" as entering your password at the login screen.
    Yes because you've made up your mind that "there is no content" and now have determined yourself to endlessly drive your anti GW2 campaign ahead, for christs sake find another hobby dude this is worrying.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 01:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Yeah, see...things like "map completion" being passed off as content just annoys the hell out of me. It makes me wonder how long people will accept, "Hey, we threw some darts at the map, go to the places where the darts landed." as actual content. =(
    This is nothing but trolling...
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2012-11-21 at 07:41 PM.
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  14. #94
    Relax, sir. No one is kicking your dog or anything.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Manekk View Post
    Yes because you've made up your mind that "there is no content" and now have determined yourself to endlessly drive your anti GW2 campaign ahead, for christs sake find another hobby dude this is worrying.
    He's actually made valid points throughout every discussion he's been part of, whether you (or I) agree with them or not. That you consider it a "campaign" or what others would call a "crusade" or anythign else, and rather than dispute his points fall to this? This itself is more worrying that people can't accept criticism of their favored activity.

    This is nothing but trolling...
    No, it's really not. Giving up on the point and directing frustrations at the person making them is a lot closer to trolling than that post is.
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  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    He's actually made valid points throughout every discussion he's been part of, whether you (or I) agree with them or not. That you consider it a "campaign" or what others would call a "crusade" or anythign else, and rather than dispute his points fall to this? This itself is more worrying that people can't accept criticism of their favored activity.
    It's not that I can't accept criticism, he really does have an abnormal amount of it, apperantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    No, it's really not. Giving up on the point and directing frustrations at the person making them is a lot closer to trolling than that post is.
    I disagree with you at best you can call it a straw man argument, I already pointed that out to him that it's obviously the hearts, vistas etc that's the content, but having a tally run for the entire world makes it something to aim for if you like exploration and rather than say I aim to do all of it you can sum it with I want "map completion"

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 12:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Relax, sir. No one is kicking your dog or anything.
    I am relaxed, it's just a comment.
    When in doubt, mumble...

  17. #97
    well people on reddit say that the y can reach level 20(more or less) without pinks so to me the gear thing is not an issue any more.

    To the people that said about the population thing.Well yes of course is the total registered users on a server i mean you register 5000 players in peak times and all of those people leave the server at non-peak times...

    the hight/medium/low tag means people currently playing as simple as that.Hence the solution to create new characters in full servers is to wait till they stop being full.

    Also to the people that say that there is no content...just say what you actually mean THERE IS NO RAID and stop beating around the bush.Since that is what you people regard as content.
    Last edited by antonatsis; 2012-11-22 at 03:39 AM.

  18. #98
    This game has by far the least content of any MMORPG I've ever played, including classic Everquest. There's just so little substance to GW2.

    1) Some leveling zones, generally with two or maybe three areas for each level bracket. Totals something like 25 zones, all of them square and some of them rather small.

    2) Eight dungeons at launch, nine now with the new one which they'll keep adding to as a means of extending the endgame.

    3) One WvW map where the placenames are altered a little from game to game, five mostly similar sPvP maps.

    4) A non-repeatable and extremely underwhelming personal storyline.

    And that's it. That is the extent of GW2's content. Some will try to argue that achievements or collectibles are content, but come on.

    I have never heard of an MMORPG of noteworthy production/publishing that had so little content. It's equivalent to one of vanilla WoW's two continents, minus the raid content and half of the dungeons. GW2 effectively has no quests, certainly has no content for guilds to do as guilds, and almost everything you can accomplish is just an enormous, unimaginative grind for ridiculous amounts of crafting materials, tokens or karma. It is possible to compliment some of the game's features, I still do so myself despite having quit the game in disappointment, but there can be no disputing the fact that GW2 has so little content that its longevity is highly questionable.

  19. #99
    Well it certainly doesn't have the type of content that you are looking for, that seems obvious.

    Plenty of stuff in there to do but if it isn't what you are looking for then yeah, there won't be much.

  20. #100
    For me the idea of getting progressively more powerful is great. I love it in all games, suppose i will continue to enjoy my hero getting stronger and stronger, saving the world!!! etc etc

    In my humble opinion GW2 has made a mess of progression / treadmill and it will bite them hard.

    Why introduce a gear treadmill when if i go to a low level zone i scale back!!!! I loved GW2 until i started to go back to low level zones and i was killing low level enemies for unimportant events and it took ages to do so.

    I want to go back and stop all over the bears as max level.... anyway, rant over.

    To summarise....

    If they want a gear treadmill then let your character remain more powerful. Dont scale up, down, up and down. Surely it cant go both ways?

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