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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Senjinone View Post
    Hunter - the reforging is all over the place. He/She reforges in and out of diffrent stats and dont seem to have a focused idea on what to do.
    The hunters reforging has got him exactly 7.50% hit, 7.51% exp, and crit on 14/15 items..

  2. #22
    Off the bat your dps for that fight is very low, not low very low. I am playing in a casual guild and we don't even struggle on that fight. It is a simple don't stand in bad things stuff,avoid bad things stuff kinda of fight.
    To make yourself an idea on how another casual guild does it this is the log for our kill http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i.../?s=740&e=1119

  3. #23
    There is no way easier way to put it, and it may be harsh. But all your DPS need to be replaced.

    Rogue: 45k
    Hunter: 43k
    Shaman: 42k
    Lock: 40k
    Warrior: 34k
    DK: 28k

    Don't use "not being a hardcore" as an excuse for being bad. If you cared enough to make a forum post you clearly care about the progression and with these numbers you're not getting anywhere.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    There is no way easier way to put it, and it may be harsh. But all your DPS need to be replaced.

    Rogue: 45k
    Hunter: 43k
    Shaman: 42k
    Lock: 40k
    Warrior: 34k
    DK: 28k

    Don't use "not being a hardcore" as an excuse for being bad. If you cared enough to make a forum post you clearly care about the progression and with these numbers you're not getting anywhere.
    It's not an excuse, it's just me telling you not to expect ranked dps, cause of the gear and cause of the players experience. Please bear in mind that those are not kills, dps is a lot lower than what it should be, due to people learning the fight and focusing more on surviving (hence why I made this post). Have a look at our MSV logs, I don't think the dps is that atrocious considering that we've never been stuck on a boss cause of low dps. (As for the DK, I did say at the start that he doesn't have any dps gear, we know his dps could be better.)

    I am glad that your raiders can manage to pop huge numbers, that surely makes the fights easier, but with our lower dps we have NEVER had a problem

  5. #25
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonlily View Post
    It's not an excuse, it's just me telling you not to expect ranked dps, cause of the gear and cause of the players experience. Please bear in mind that those are not kills, dps is a lot lower than what it should be, due to people learning the fight and focusing more on surviving (hence why I made this post). Have a look at our MSV logs, I don't think the dps is that atrocious considering that we've never been stuck on a boss cause of low dps. (As for the DK, I did say at the start that he doesn't have any dps gear, we know his dps could be better.)

    I am glad that your raiders can manage to pop huge numbers, that surely makes the fights easier, but with our lower dps we have NEVER had a problem
    I believe you came here looking for help but you just don't like the help being provided. The truth is your raid needs to up it's DPS and the reasons you provided are excuses that should not be holding you back at all!

    1) You say not to expect high DPS due to gear...

    This is an armory link to your prot war with 484 Ilvl http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Suture/simple
    This is my armory link to my prot war with 474 Ilvl : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Odina/advanced

    Your war has 10 I levels over me however

    This is your damage done on attempt 10 as it is the closes time wise to ours : http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4790&e=5220 he is doing 34k sustained DPS (always look at DPS(e)
    This is my WOL link to our kill : http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k...=13563&e=14018 I was able to hold 45k sustained dps.

    As you can see this is not a gear issue at all you have more than enough gear in your raid to get this boss dead easy.

    Another thing is you said that people would be more focused on learning the fight and avoiding stuff. this fight took us 2 pulls to kill and as you can see form our WOL learning it did not hinder DPS it's actually quite the opposite. New bosses tend to bring out the best in dps as they are eager and excited to rip it anew one.

    however I did go look at your MV as you stated your dps is not bad. I took a look at our Feng kill vs yours and again there is a 10k discrepancy between your war and I while he had allot more gear. The discrepancy between our lock and yours is 12k, your ele sham vs ours is 11k. Overall the difference of our two raids is 67kdps for the kill and our raids are about equally geared.

    I know you probably wanted a fix along the lines of "use cool down XY during transition B and save cd Z at transition C and you will get a kill!", however the truth of the matter is you need to up dps during all his platforms to reduce the amount of time you are there so you can get to P2. In P2 you need to up dps even more so you don't get overlaps an get the kill. The simple solution is to have your players up there personal game play. It sucks but you will be stuck on bosses due to low dps as these all seem to be dps check fights rather than things like stone guards where it was a communication check!

    We are by no means hardcore we raid Wednesday nights from 9-1 thus 4 hours total per week! Being on a casual sched is no excuse for lower dps.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    I believe you came here looking for help but you just don't like the help being provided. The truth is your raid needs to up it's DPS and the reasons you provided are excuses that should not be holding you back at all!

    1) You say not to expect high DPS due to gear...

    This is an armory link to your prot war with 484 Ilvl http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Suture/simple
    This is my armory link to my prot war with 474 Ilvl : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Odina/advanced

    Your war has 10 I levels over me however

    This is your damage done on attempt 10 as it is the closes time wise to ours : http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4790&e=5220 he is doing 34k sustained DPS (always look at DPS(e)
    This is my WOL link to our kill : http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k...=13563&e=14018 I was able to hold 45k sustained dps.

    As you can see this is not a gear issue at all you have more than enough gear in your raid to get this boss dead easy.

    Another thing is you said that people would be more focused on learning the fight and avoiding stuff. this fight took us 2 pulls to kill and as you can see form our WOL learning it did not hinder DPS it's actually quite the opposite. New bosses tend to bring out the best in dps as they are eager and excited to rip it anew one.

    however I did go look at your MV as you stated your dps is not bad. I took a look at our Feng kill vs yours and again there is a 10k discrepancy between your war and I while he had allot more gear. The discrepancy between our lock and yours is 12k, your ele sham vs ours is 11k. Overall the difference of our two raids is 67kdps for the kill and our raids are about equally geared.

    I know you probably wanted a fix along the lines of "use cool down XY during transition B and save cd Z at transition C and you will get a kill!", however the truth of the matter is you need to up dps during all his platforms to reduce the amount of time you are there so you can get to P2. In P2 you need to up dps even more so you don't get overlaps an get the kill. The simple solution is to have your players up there personal game play. It sucks but you will be stuck on bosses due to low dps as these all seem to be dps check fights rather than things like stone guards where it was a communication check!

    We are by no means hardcore we raid Wednesday nights from 9-1 thus 4 hours total per week! Being on a casual sched is no excuse for lower dps.
    I am not refusing anyone's suggestions here, everything has been taken into consideration, we have already discussed all the tips you and the other people have given us, and we really do appreciate it. I just get the impression that most of the people that post on MMO Champion are on a higher level than us, people used to see 60k in their logs, look at our 40k and instantly think that we'll never be able to kill the boss due to the low numbers.

    You see, your guild, even if you don't raid many hours per week, managed to get this boss down in 2 tries. We are sitting on 24 and while we have seen some progress, we are still struggling with it. This is very unusual for our guild, usually we dont get stuck on a boss for more than 2 nights, not on the very first bosses of an instance atleast. We are just on a different skill level, but I already know that. I didn't make this post to get answers like Glurps "You suck, replace all dps". How does that help us? We are already aware our dps could be better, I was just wondering, if other than that, there was something else that could help us, suggestion on how to deal with the mechanics, cd's, healing, etc... If the ONLY ONE reason why we are wiping is low dps, then that's another story, but I really doubt that's the ONLY problem.

    With that said, I did really appreciate your help, I didn't know that our warrior wasn't using all cd's, he's a great tank and he's gonna try what you suggested. I was looking for comments like yours, constructive criticism, problem + solution, not "here is your problem, DEAL WITH IT"

  7. #27
    i think part of the reason there's such an emphasis on your raid's dps is due to the fact that p2 is mostly a dps race as each ability starts getting popped off quicker, therefore if you up your dps, you lower the amount of time in p2, which is where wipes due to bad rng (lol@ MC 2 healers right before F&V) tend to happen at an increasing rate. my guild spent an entire evening on the fight with wipes around 2-15% and didnt wind up downing it due to a late start and our tank getting called in to work. I'm not sure if you guys know the trick on how to get him to start on one platform or another, but we had a few latency wipes from attenuates so we pushed him to the attenuate first and would do a quick wipe/reset if we had too many deaths off the bat... the way to do it is stand on one platform when you pull him, and he will fly to the opposite. it's more ideal to do attenuate 2nd due to little raid damage going out if ppl can dodge well, so healers can regen after the F&V platform, but if F&V is going easy, just practice doing attenuate first.
    so in summary, try pushing him to attenuate platform first for practice if ppl are still having difficulty, up that p2 dps and push him down quicker and you should find a win GL!

  8. #28
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonlily View Post
    If the ONLY ONE reason why we are wiping is low dps, then that's another story, but I really doubt that's the ONLY problem.
    Unfortunately the way this boss works it really is the issue. You can cycle CD's etc in different ways but so long as dps is lower then you will run into the same issues over and over. Increasing DPS is the way to control your CD's in this case and that is where the issue is. If say you get to the shield platform and you up your dps so he can only cast 2 then you only need to use 2 raid cd's and this saves CD's for the future / other platforms or they will be up in P2 again. However if your dps is lower you need to use more CD's to compensate for longer transitions. This will lead to CD starvation in P2 where they are really needed.

    I'm not suggesting upping DPS to flex eeping or to just kill it fast (though that is fun) I'm saying up dps to ensure you don't:
    a) Waste Deff CD's that can be saved for O shit moments
    b) transition faster to P2 so more deff CD's are avail
    c) healers will have more mana for P2 to keep people up
    d) chances are with faster transition less chance of pre P2 death and thus bres is up for P2

    You must look at this boss as a race between your available CD's and the boss overwhelming you. This is not a "wait it out and avoid bad shit till he's dead" boss due to the bubble's. Since you take quite a bit of raid wide dmg it's a race to get him dead before too many of those go off and you start running out of CD's to manage it.

    It's not about min maxing and being an elitist... my posts are trying to help out where I see the fault so please don't take them as a "you suck". I'm trying to point out gaps that are killing you is all and in this case it's just a race that the boss is winning and more dps would put you at an advantage for this boss rather than smashing your heads against a wall trying to find a CD rotation that would compensate for lower dps.

    Again it's little changes..

    Example if your war made a macro like the following
    /cast shield block
    /cast shield slam

    This may seem silly and insignificant but has helped me allot. it will cast my shield block but also cast shield slam right after if it is avail and I spam the macro... this ties right into the glyph that gives us 50% more dmg to SS when SB is up... who wouldn't want to hit for 50% more by doing nothing more than making a macro! Another one is tying heroic strike to deadly calm so that whenever you want to rage bleed with HS you wont be casting full cost HS. Little macro's and awareness like this over the course of a 7-8 min fight add up fast! It's not about replacing players as they are killing bosses but more about educating them on using all the tools avail to them to help the GROUP. This has to be point #1 Group > self thus don't be lazy 9 other people are counting on you to know what to do!

    Hope this helps
    ~odina~

  9. #29
    I tend to agree with you OP. More dps would be nice, but it's not the core issue. You rarely have the full raid alive going into P2. Combat rez is always burnt.

    Attenuation is the main issue. Greater comfort with that will improve the raid dps (will have to focus less on survival, will be dead less).

    A couple other points about attenuation. Sounds like Bigwigs will actually tell you whether to go CW or CWW (was posted in the H-Zor thread ... I use DBM, so can't validate). Also, I'm told the GTFO addon will give an audio warning when you get clipped by one. First few attempts I had a tendency to split an eye to my health bar if I thought one was close ... and that quick distraction can lead to more problems. The addon would be a nice queue to pop a healthstone (which your group seems to be fairly good at using). Other then that, hop a LFR and practice a little standing closer.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    Unfortunately the way this boss works it really is the issue. You can cycle CD's etc in different ways but so long as dps is lower then you will run into the same issues over and over. Increasing DPS is the way to control your CD's in this case and that is where the issue is. If say you get to the shield platform and you up your dps so he can only cast 2 then you only need to use 2 raid cd's and this saves CD's for the future / other platforms or they will be up in P2 again. However if your dps is lower you need to use more CD's to compensate for longer transitions. This will lead to CD starvation in P2 where they are really needed.

    I'm not suggesting upping DPS to flex eeping or to just kill it fast (though that is fun) I'm saying up dps to ensure you don't:
    a) Waste Deff CD's that can be saved for O shit moments
    b) transition faster to P2 so more deff CD's are avail
    c) healers will have more mana for P2 to keep people up
    d) chances are with faster transition less chance of pre P2 death and thus bres is up for P2

    You must look at this boss as a race between your available CD's and the boss overwhelming you. This is not a "wait it out and avoid bad shit till he's dead" boss due to the bubble's. Since you take quite a bit of raid wide dmg it's a race to get him dead before too many of those go off and you start running out of CD's to manage it.

    It's not about min maxing and being an elitist... my posts are trying to help out where I see the fault so please don't take them as a "you suck". I'm trying to point out gaps that are killing you is all and in this case it's just a race that the boss is winning and more dps would put you at an advantage for this boss rather than smashing your heads against a wall trying to find a CD rotation that would compensate for lower dps.

    Again it's little changes..

    Example if your war made a macro like the following
    /cast shield block
    /cast shield slam

    This may seem silly and insignificant but has helped me allot. it will cast my shield block but also cast shield slam right after if it is avail and I spam the macro... this ties right into the glyph that gives us 50% more dmg to SS when SB is up... who wouldn't want to hit for 50% more by doing nothing more than making a macro! Another one is tying heroic strike to deadly calm so that whenever you want to rage bleed with HS you wont be casting full cost HS. Little macro's and awareness like this over the course of a 7-8 min fight add up fast! It's not about replacing players as they are killing bosses but more about educating them on using all the tools avail to them to help the GROUP. This has to be point #1 Group > self thus don't be lazy 9 other people are counting on you to know what to do!

    Hope this helps
    ~odina~
    Thank you for explaining this, I never looked at the fight this way! I thought everyone who was saying the dps was too low, meant that we would have hit enrage timer. I'll make sure to tell our warrior to have a look at your post, I know nothing about warriors, but those seem to be pretty good macros!

  11. #31
    well.. looks like your having less problems with cooldown's than you are with keeping people out of the rings your dk in peticular did horrible damage because he was dying to the rings constantly we had this issue last night where the same 3 people were dying over and over and over to the rings... after the 5th attempt your raid leader has to grow a set and tell em enough.. its a set pattern that's announced via dbm right in the middle of your screen. after the first few attempts you got no excuses why your getting hit anymore its not like the rings are randomly moving about. tell the ones that are dying and getting hit that its time to pick it up or your gonna have to set em.. sorry guild leaders can be nice.. raid leaders dont have that option if they want things done.. and if your the guild/raid leader you set your own self up to have issues.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by McTurbo View Post
    well.. looks like your having less problems with cooldown's than you are with keeping people out of the rings your dk in peticular did horrible damage because he was dying to the rings constantly we had this issue last night where the same 3 people were dying over and over and over to the rings... after the 5th attempt your raid leader has to grow a set and tell em enough.. its a set pattern that's announced via dbm right in the middle of your screen. after the first few attempts you got no excuses why your getting hit anymore its not like the rings are randomly moving about. tell the ones that are dying and getting hit that its time to pick it up or your gonna have to set em.. sorry guild leaders can be nice.. raid leaders dont have that option if they want things done.. and if your the guild/raid leader you set your own self up to have issues.
    I am not the raid leader, but trust me, at every single death from those rings the RL got upset more and more everytime, he's not ignoring it. But that's all he can do, after that, it's up to the rest of the team to execute it properly, the RL can't go through the screen and play for us :P And we are only a small guild, we don't have many reserves, so we can't really bench anyone.

    Hopefully this week we'll all do better on that =/

  13. #33
    Brewmaster Kiry's Avatar
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    I couldn't tell if anyone mentioned it. In phase 2, the MCs, if you can't get them to 50% before the next Attune or F&V, just CC them (stun, sheep, whatever). They won't get hurt by the boss's phase and you'll do your raid more justice leaving them up while you deal with the mechanic. Then deal with them after it's over.
    Remember only 4 per shield for F&V.
    I strongly recommend not saving CDs for the MC platform or phase 2. Use em so they aren't used against the raid.
    Since the "nerf" last week, this fight is fairly easy to do with 2 healers if everyone is on their game.
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  14. #34
    Brewmaster Help ol Gil Out's Avatar
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    We've been having the same general issues on this guy as well. While our DPS was fine, for the most part, we usually had the same two to three people die during attenuation which simply boggles my mind at how easy it is to recognize the pattern and move with it. They would either run along with the spheres and get cork-screwed to the outer edge and demolished by a bounce back or....well...I don't know. I just run in as close to the boss as possible and move against the current which always has me within melee distance so on top of being able to circle-strafe, I'm also using my regular rotation whereas some just straight up and die within the first half of the first dance.

    Like you, we don't have reserves as we are a fairly small guild and the pugs are usually....less than stellar....so it ends up putting a lot of strain on the RL and those who can handle the mechanics. For me, attenuation is one of the easiest mechanics to avoid in the game and there should be little to no damage during that phase so I have a hard time trying to wrap my head around how we can expect ourselves to progress even further in HoF or even back in MSV.

    Some would say to join a new guild but this guild has some of the core players I've played with since TBC which makes it a tough decision.
    A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon.

  15. #35
    I am not an expert by any means, but looking at your logs, when you get to the last phase, it looks like you are often wiping to force and verve. Make sure people use their own defensive cooldowns for this one. Remind your warriors to use their demoralizing banners (raid wide 10% damage reduction), Rallying Cry and Die By the Sword. I also go defensive stance for them (25% damage reduction). You should also get your healers to rotate their cooldowns for this.

    We had our first kill of this yesterday which was by no means clean (healer died near the start due to no mouse batteries which led to a solo heal), and our dps was between 42 and 49k. Our wipes sound similar since we had way too many people dying to attenuation. All I can say for that is to get people to focus on staying alive rather than dpsing the boss.

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