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  1. #1

    Angry 10 man normal Imperial Vizier Zor'lok - any suggestions?

    Hey all,

    I'm here to ask for help, because we have spent 2 nights now on this boss, and we still can't kill him, I think best attempt so far was 18%. Bear in mind, that we are just an average friendly guild, so far our progress in MSV is 4/6. Nothing hardcore ^^

    - Most of our wipes were caused by people getting hit by Attenuation. I guess you can't do much about it, if not just practice.

    - We have tried both 2 healing it and 3 healing it with a smiting Disc priest. Looks like the 2nd way got us further, any suggestions?

    - This isn't our usual composition, usually our healers are a Paladin, a Shaman and a Disc priest. Also, instead of 2 dps warriors we usually have 1 dk and 1 warrior.

    - The DK usually tanks, and doesn't have full dps gear yet, that may be way his dps is lower.

    - We are quite unsure on how to use cds/hero. Some of us would prefer to pop hero as soon as phase 2 starts, to be able to use it all before the boss casts anything. The problem with that is that would mean that some of us would have to delay our cd's to be able to use them during hero.
    Personally I think that we should use the cd's on the MC platform, as most of the times when you get MC'd the game will likely pop your cd's, wasting them. And then again use them at around 10% with hero, when everything (apart from the 5 min cd's) will be ready to use.

    Our usual dps composition is:
    -Combat Rogue (1 min cd)
    -Affli Warlock (2 min cd)
    -Elemental Shaman (3 min cd)
    -Arms Warrior (3 min cd)
    -BM hunter (2 min and 3 min cd)
    -Frost DK (1 min and 2 min cd)

    Based on our best attempt last night (Try 11) it took us 8:23 mins to get to 20%.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-92ab3nu0nio8x2ja/

    So, what do you guys think we should change, to be able to kill this biatch?:P (Also, if you would like to suggest anything class related, please do! Would be much better than posting in every single class forum to get help ;P)
    Last edited by Moonlily; 2012-11-19 at 03:57 PM. Reason: Meant Attenuation, not Force and Verve, sorry!

  2. #2
    Your dps seems to be pretty low. Especially the DK, you might want to replace him for that fight (until your other DPS'ers gets better). But the others as well, nobody should be below 50k.

    However, your healers seem also to have some problems. In try 11, half the raid dies from F&V after about 7 minutes, this looks like a healing problem. Were they out of mana? All healers should start phase 3 with full mana, or you're doing something wrong.

    Force&Verve has been nerfed very hard last week and shouldn't pose a big problem for any healer combination. Do you make sure people are standing in the bubbles, and only 4 per bubble? The fight can easily be done with 3 healers, I guess switching to two would be more difficult for you.

    We blow BL in phase 2, as soon as the first F&V starts. This guarantees at least a bit time to stand still and dps, and helps the healers. Yesterday we did the fight with 9 people (3 healers), it's not that difficult any more. However, all our dps do 50-70k. World of Logs

  3. #3
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Have your healers rotate their raid cooldowns for F&V. Pop BL when he goes into the middle (after he lands). Make sure everyone uses cooldowns that mitigate PHYSICAL damage since there is no magic damage in this fight (so things like DK's AMS are completely useless except to reduce damage when running through the gas).

  4. #4
    Your damage is incredibly low for a start. I as a prot warrior was pushing 37k DPS, our Disc priest managed 25k. I can't remember what the enrage timer is if there is one, but the force and verve that killed your raid at the end, the early deaths look like they was too many in a bubble or they were far too late moving. CD should be managed individually unless there is a really massive need for burst (there isn't in this case). Also people should not be dying to sonic rings.

    We save hero in P2 for the first force and verve, saving healing CDs for the later ones (ususally feral tranq, tranq, power word barrier, spirit link)

  5. #5
    Over 9000! Hyve's Avatar
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    Your healers are also not pulling the required numbers either, even for three healing it. Your best bet is to sort the healing so you can use just two healers and then bring another DPS. Force & Verve is not a difficult thing to heal through if you use your cooldowns wisely.

    Although we have a different set up, we handled Force & Verve by using Tranquility & Personal Cooldowns on the first one when he is on his platform. We'd push it so we only get one due to more DPS. In the final phase it is Tranquility on the first with personal cooldowns, then on the second we use Revival & Healthstone.

    Here is our World of Log report. We wiped a few times to having new players with us as Trials, so it wasn't our best night, but you can see the difference between my up-time on healing, and your healers. Our Druid healer shown also has a lower uptime, but I covered for that. Comparing classes is hard, but generally this is the level of healing needed to get a kill:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f...m/healingDone/

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    Your dps seems to be pretty low. Especially the DK, you might want to replace him for that fight (until your other DPS'ers gets better). But the others as well, nobody should be below 50k.

    However, your healers seem also to have some problems. In try 11, half the raid dies from F&V after about 7 minutes, this looks like a healing problem. Were they out of mana? All healers should start phase 3 with full mana, or you're doing something wrong.

    Force&Verve has been nerfed very hard last week and shouldn't pose a big problem for any healer combination. Do you make sure people are standing in the bubbles, and only 4 per bubble? The fight can easily be done with 3 healers, I guess switching to two would be more difficult for you.

    We blow BL in phase 2, as soon as the first F&V starts. This guarantees at least a bit time to stand still and dps, and helps the healers. Yesterday we did the fight with 9 people (3 healers), it's not that difficult any more. However, all our dps do 50-70k. World of Logs
    Yes, as I've said, the DK was in tank gear and usually doesn't dps, that's why his dps was lower than the others. As for the rest of us, our ilvl ranges between 470 and 485 I think, what ilvl has your guild got?

    Yes, we do rotate cd's for Force and Verve, assign people to bubbles, and use any defensive cd and offheals, though I'm not sure how was the healers' mana situation though.

    So you blow BL as soon as he lands in Ph2, do you suggest to delay cd's and pop them during hero then, or use them before and after?

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Simulacrum's Avatar
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    Your damage is extremely low for that ilvl of gear. Nobody should be below 60k in 470 on a fight like this, but you don't have anyone ABOVE 60k in better gear than 470? There's barely one pushing 50k? This is extremely bad.

    Here's our first kill the 6th, with the top dps in ilvl 475 gear at the time (the top monk didn't even have tradeskills the slacker).
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7578&e=7994
    The bottom one (Cuteball) is our warrior tank, in his, at the time, ilvl ~465 dps gear (he just hit 90 two weeks before before), not having any experience dpsing.

    We used a shadow priest to go disc (for the first time ever, he said) for the force and verve, but since that kill we've started using just the paladin and resto. If you survive for 7+ minutes then you clearly have the healing; your problem appears to be the extremely low dps.
    Last edited by Simulacrum; 2012-11-19 at 04:21 PM.
    Dr Johnson, they said: “we are delighted to find that you’ve not included any indecent or obscene words in your dictionary.”
    “Ladies, said dr Johnson, “I can congratulate you on being able to look them up.”

  8. #8
    We usually lust after the first attenuation in phase 2, and use three healers. Waste your random CCs (Blinding light, Dragons Breath, etc) before the MC. Healers rotate CDs during F&V. We assign a couple dps for each MC target to get them out quickly.

    Everyone staying alive during attenuation and quick reactions to MCs and there shouldn't too much issues, you just have to survive.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    Your damage is extremely low for that ilvl of gear. Nobody should be below 60k in 470 on a fight like this, but you don't have anyone ABOVE 60k in better gear than 470? There's barely one pushing 50k? This is extremely bad.
    Hmm it could be that we are just focusing more in surviving and learning the fight than making better dps, if you compare the logs that I linked, to the last week tries, pretty much has improved of atleast 2k, and I don't think that's just due to 1 or 2 new pieces of gear.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonlily View Post
    Yes, as I've said, the DK was in tank gear and usually doesn't dps, that's why his dps was lower than the others. As for the rest of us, our ilvl ranges between 470 and 485 I think, what ilvl has your guild got?
    Fire Mage (66k): 488
    Ele Shami (65k): 484
    SV Hunter (59k): 490
    Shadow (55k): 483
    Frost DK (55k): 480

    However, a few item levels won't give you 10k dps difference, this is a L2P issue.

    BL in P2 is correct, and matching your CDs is always a good idea. I don't think it's important when exactly you blow it, since you will get an Attenuation phase in it anyway. So use it either at start of P2, or when the first F&V phase begins.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post

    However, a few item levels won't give you 10k dps difference, this is a L2P issue.
    Ok I see, I was a bit sceptical because this would be the first time that we can't down a boss because we don't have enough dps, it has never been amazingly high, but we always managed to get bosses down without any dps problems (see the MSV logs if you want to compare). Ah well, we'll look into it!

  12. #12
    Sometimes people having trouble with attenuation are standing too far back. The rings split somewhere around 20 yards. They also ricochet off the walls.

    The general idea with attenuation is to circle the boss (either CW or CWW). Even if you aren't far enough back to get hit by splits, you make your circle around the boss bigger when you are further away. Get kinda tight, and deduce as quickly as possible if you are going CW or CWW.

    In P2, the attenuation after F&V can catch people, as you will have a few folks farther back using the most distant shell. When F&V ends, make a point of getting back to your comfortable attenuation distance asap.

  13. #13
    We are in a similar position to you progression wise (current 5/6 and 1/6) this boss took us way too many attempts (over 20) considering that after maybe the first 5 we had pretty much got it sorted. Our biggest problem was people not dodging the discs. Even on our kill, 2 people got killed by them on the first platform so after a battle rez we 9 manned the rest.

    We 2 healed it, resto shammy (myself) and holy pally and used a single DK tank, leaving 7 dps 2 melee 5 ranged on our kill.

    The F&V platform is pretty easy to deal with, what we had was pally stacking with tank and melee dps on the boss, me in the middle distance shell with 3 ranged dps, then in the one furthest away we had shadow priest and elemental shammy, they were specifically chosen due to their ability to self heal if needed. We rotated cooldowns and apart from the occasional person running to the wrong shield and therefor dying it was an easy platform, nothing much changes in final phase, although often you have enough deaths that you only need 2 shells anyway. One important thing for final phase is discs frequently follow shells so those in the middle need to be ready to spread or they get one-shot by the discs forming.

    Discs were problematic. My way of handling them was to stand at the top of the stairs, as they start coming out you strafe and slowly move forward, this gives you plenty of time to see them and spot the openings, if one does come across from the side then just move forwards a bit quicker. This technique can be easily applied in the final phase, you tank him on the green mark on the floor and then move to the grey line that roughly circles him, that is about the distance they will split so if you start walking in as he casts you will be ahead of the split point. The other strategy being used was to circle the boss, the melee seemed to like doing that. We did experiment with using the warlock gate for 2 people to avoid it (you can't do more than that as you run out of charges), the idea is you place the gate between the two platforms (discs an F&V) and when discs come up the two worst can skip to the other platform and wait for it to be over before coming back, this will only work a specific number of times due to the charges taking too long to come back. We didn't use that tactic in the end but if you have a couple of people really struggling that might be the best option.

    Mind control could be awkward, first pop any CC you can on the boss so that when mindcontrolled you don't have people feared into gas. Our priority was healer first, then DoT class then any other dps. Try not to place DoTs on the target you are breaking out and it is an easy platform. The problem comes in the final phase, if shells come up stop all dps on the mind controlled, either they stay mind-controlled throughout the whole thing or they break out due to dots and hopefully have enough health and self cooldown to run to their shell. The one exception to this was if the healer got mind controlled, if that happened the other healer goes to the middle distance shell the dk death grips the mind controlled healer into the boss shell and dps burst them down while they sit with a finger hovering over whatever the best cooldown they have available is. We did find that if the tank got mindcontrolled (I think that can only happen if there is no other choice) it will change their presence/stance, this is normally indication of a wipe but it does mean if your tank isn't paying attention the next pull can go horribly wrong.

    As said by others bloodlust at the start of the final phase.

    Hope that helps, good luck

  14. #14
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    I can't comment on the others but I can comment on a Prot war POV.

    Your tank needs to go read up on some stuff as he seems to be outdated on his gearing methodology. He seems to be going for a hybrid avoidance + mitigation build getting as much parry dodge and mastery as possible... this would have been great in Cata to get CTC but since that is now gone and we are in active mitigation he is really gimping himself and the healers by having such low hit and expertise. He wants 7.5% hit and at minimum 7.5% exp (more is good up till 15%). This will allow a nice flow of rage to have a steady amount of shield blocks (He's using glyph of heavy repercussions) as right now he's probably rage starved and not able to use shield block that often (he had 7 on try 11 with 8mins 23 seconds compared to my 28 shield blocks in out 7:35 min kill).

    Second I see you have 3 Warriors in the raid but I can't seem to find a buff being applied to the raid for skull banner at all... they should really be rolling them as much as possible for the dmg boost!

    Third he/she took avatar but only used it 5 times total in the 11 pulls, the same for recklessness only used 2 times. These abilities should be used right at the beginning on this fight as they will all be back up for hero at the end. I would suggest getting him a macro that uses Avatar, reck, skull banner, and pops a potion. Prepotting right at the pull will also benefit him. Another thing is Deadly Calm is on a 1 min cd... in your 11 attempts he used it twice... I was able to use it 7 times in one attempt ... it's little things like this that are adding up across all the raid!

    Here is my POV on our 2nd ever pull of the boss. If you or the tank have any questions about things I do please pm me as I would love to help. I am by no means an amazing player just the avg Joe in a casual guild (we raid 4 hours a week) but reading up and understanding your class should be prio # 1 to raid with less stress!




    ---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 07:08 PM ----------

    For the discs just try to be in melee range when he is about to cast them. If you are close enough you can just runaround in a circle and avoid it 100% of the time. At times it gose countre clockwise others clock wise but once they start comming out you can see the pattern really fast and just strafe around the boss avoiding them!
    Last edited by Odina; 2012-11-19 at 07:33 PM.

  15. #15
    I made this video a while ago... might help



    If you're having problems with dancing, just don't DPS on the platform. Let everyone just dance(and heal) for the whole pull.

  16. #16
    This looks very much like a issue of learning your classes better.
    Looking at the dps you have:
    Hunter - the reforging is all over the place. He/She reforges in and out of diffrent stats and dont seem to have a focused idea on what to do.
    Rogue - needs better enchant on those weapons. Also i would like to know why he/she has a int gem in the legs

    This was just a very quick look, it seems to me like you need to do some reading on your classes and may use this site:
    http://www.askmrrobot.com

  17. #17
    Looks to me like a heals problem or people running into shit problem that they shouldn't be. Analyzing your dps data on wipes is borderline retarded since the circumstances during a wipe usually cause HUGE fall off from what you had been doing at peak during the fight itself. I'm surprised that people jumped on the dps numbers knowing it was not a kill.

    Youd do better to compare it to numbers from a closer fight in msv to ensure that you're on target for the kill. But the rest of the info is correct, so work on people getting stuck on stupid and manage cd's better. My 2 cents.


    FYI, Ive found mrrobot to be awful and usually wrong.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinsoul View Post
    Sometimes people having trouble with attenuation are standing too far back. The rings split somewhere around 20 yards. They also ricochet off the walls.

    The general idea with attenuation is to circle the boss (either CW or CWW). Even if you aren't far enough back to get hit by splits, you make your circle around the boss bigger when you are further away. Get kinda tight, and deduce as quickly as possible if you are going CW or CWW.
    Yes that's true, I have been watching a few videos and it does look much much easier! I used to stay in the mid, but then I had to "change lane" because I couldnt keep up with the rings and I would get too close too the wall, risking to get hit by the rings that were bouncing off.

  19. #19
    Stood in the Fire Gum's Avatar
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    Whats actually causing deaths? is it people not being able to dance? Or is it healing during FnV? Is MCed targets being a pain? healers going OOM?

    Figure out whats wrong, and then work towards a fix of one problem at a time. obviously, if dps is an issue, dont make one improve at a time

    keep going at it, you wont learn anything from sitting on the forums obviously getting pointers are good, but the boss aint tactically that hard. Theres no fancy tactic that makes the boss alot easier..

    We personally value speed over personal dps, so i tell all my dps to pop their silly Cds, like dragon roar fears, all that stuff, just so they dont end up fearing the entire raid or whatever. Keep dps high, dont stand in silly stuff, and otherwise keep going at it,

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Gum View Post
    Whats actually causing deaths? is it people not being able to dance? Or is it healing during FnV? Is MCed targets being a pain? healers going OOM?

    Figure out whats wrong, and then work towards a fix of one problem at a time. obviously, if dps is an issue, dont make one improve at a time

    keep going at it, you wont learn anything from sitting on the forums obviously getting pointers are good, but the boss aint tactically that hard. Theres no fancy tactic that makes the boss alot easier..

    We personally value speed over personal dps, so i tell all my dps to pop their silly Cds, like dragon roar fears, all that stuff, just so they dont end up fearing the entire raid or whatever. Keep dps high, dont stand in silly stuff, and otherwise keep going at it,
    I did say at the start, most of our wipes are caused by people getting killed during Attenuation. Though in the few tries where that didn't happen, we still didn't manage to kill the boss, and we don't know why exactly, lack of dps, lack of healing, lack of coordination, we don't know! That's why I gave you the link to our WoL logs, so that people more experienced with the fight and log reading could help us understand what we are doing wrong.

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