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  1. #421
    Legendary! Digglett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fengore View Post
    Nor is that an indication of failure. See my post on the previous page about the shift in market.
    When it's the most expensive MMO ever made, and in only a year it's free to play (you can hit level cap without spending money), that's a pretty big failure.

    Especially since we're talking about EA here, can't get more money grubbing than that, you know times were desperate when EA makes their most expensive MMO free.


  2. #422
    Pit Lord
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    Except that is no longer an indicator of failure.

    Please try to keep up...
    ^ The above should be taken with two grains of salt and a fistful of "chill the F* out".

  3. #423
    Mechagnome Sfidt's Avatar
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    1: WoW: Cataclysm
    2: SW:TOR
    3: Diablo 3

    Pretty much standard ones
    S.H.

  4. #424
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digglett View Post
    When it's the most expensive MMO ever made, and in only a year it's free to play (you can hit level cap without spending money), that's a pretty big failure.
    It stays above the required number of subs to break even, and the F2P is highly restricted with microtransactions allowing you to enhance your gameplay without committing to a subscription.

    That's not failure, that's adapting to the shift in the market. F2P no longer constitutes failure, hell, look at LoL.

  5. #425
    Fengore, sorry, but you are more or less as objectively wrong as you can get.

    F2P is a very viable buisiness model for many games, and companies like Valve and Riot have benefited hugely from making many popular games with this model. Sucessful MMOs can also be free to play.

    But do consider that SWTOR is estimated as the single most expensive game ever made, at over 300 million estimated spent on the game alone, and more on advertising. Going F2P so early for a game designed for the subscription model, from a company well known for wringing every cent or penny out of whatever they can, is pretty telling that the game did not do as well as they wanted it to. F2P no longer has to constitute failure, but in this case, it is a pretty good indicator. If going F2P was simply the game trying to adapt to the market, then why havn't all the other large MMOs done so recently? Because in most cases in which a game was not designed to be F2P, converting from subscription to F2P is generally an awkward process, and a last ditch effort to get something extra out of a game. In SWTOR this is particularly evident when you look at the state of the F2P itself in SWTOR; it is so ridiculously restricting (reduced exp, limited ui, limited loot rolls in instances, limited instance/warzone runs per week...) that it is clearly not designed in any sense to be properly played without paying. It seems more like a way to get attention to the game, to attempt to hook people in and force them to sub. Is this the action of an MMO which is a thriving success? No.

    I will not deny that I was dissapointed by SWTOR, and I knew very little about it until 2 months before release, so I had little time to buy into any hype, but that did not stop me enjoying it for what it was. I am not a jaded fanboy desperate for it to fail because I feel betrayed by EA, but I personally do not see how it can be viewed as anything other then a fail in an objective light.
    "English doesn't so much borrow words from other languages as follows them into a dark alley, hits them over the head and goes through their pockets for loose vocabulary."

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeforumuser View Post
    I won't call D3 a failure though, at least Blizzard patched away most of the godawful gameplay problems pretty swiftly with 1.04.

    The closest thing IMO would be Oblivion, everything was so lazy and sloppily done.
    You must be mental Oblivion and Morowind were revolutionary

  7. #427
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migey View Post
    Fengore, sorry, but you are more or less as objectively wrong as you can get.
    The game is over the break even point for subscribers to where it turns a profit, how am I wrong? Before it even reaches out to the F2P/Microtransaction market, it's making money.

    It extends itself to the non commital market by offering a F2P microtransaction option. Why is it considered a failure to branch out your business options?

    If they were losing money on subscribers alone and requiring F2P to balance the books to stay afloat, you'd have a point. But if it's financially justifying it's costs and then offering a F2P/Pay as you Go alternative to an untapped market you were otherwise never going to get no matter how good your game is, that's not a failure, that's smart business.

    An F2P which allows you to play in your own time, and if you suddenly get a few days free, spend a small amount of money to enhance the gameplay of your free time, without the costs of a subscription, is a completely different market to the people who pay to subscribe. Yes it also will hook people in to subscribe, but a large consumer base will use it for what it is, a play in your own time - no strings attached - alternative to subscription gameplay.

    I am not a jaded fanboy desperate for it to fail because I feel betrayed by EA, but I personally do not see how it can be viewed as anything other then a fail in an objective light.
    It's making a profit, I still stand by my point that WoW will take up this model in the days to come, just because you're making a profit doesn't mean you shouldn't look to make more of a profit, why restrict yourself?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 11:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Conor View Post
    You must be mental Oblivion and Morowind were revolutionary
    I'll give you Morrowind, but Oblivion? What was revolutionary about essentially a rushed sandbox that requires player support to be good?

  8. #428
    Dreadlord Oogzy's Avatar
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    Blizzard destroyed Diablo 3. Decimated it. In multiple ways even. Lets just go through the garbage pile of the game:

    • Always Online DRM: Sorry Blizzard, this was a huge mistake. If my internet goes down, I can't play. I rarely, and I mean rarely, played with others, yet I can't play. It was obviously for the RMAH as well as a horrible, horrible form of DRM.
    • Weapon Enchant Attributes Cut: All but frost from weapons was removed. Yes, they have elemental damage still, but all the modifiers but frost were removed. Why? Who knows why it was removed, except that it was. There's no reason to go for enchants anymore except for extra damage.
    • Random Quests and Encounters: Back about 4, maybe 5 now, years ago we were promised with a great video that there would be random quests and random encounters. Those looked fantastically fun. Except they don't exist. At all. What random quests and encounters? Elite packs don't count, either.
    • Randomized Dungeons: Haha... No. Man, if you've played the game enough, there's barely any tile pieces that are used that make the game any different. There's really not much to the "randomness" of the zones. The roads are always in the same place. The dungeon floor plans are rarely much different and generally have 3-5 floor plans. Random? Yeah, right.
    • PvP: Oh, what's that, it's been 6 months and this STILL isn't in the game? It was announced and playable in 2010? Weird, I played a very working version of it at Blizzcon. It was incredibly fun and you could set up some great, great plays. I must have gone through this line 10 times over with a few friends, yet it's STILL not in the game. Weird.


    Hell, the biggest reason the game took so bloody long was because of economic laws around the world. Diablo 3 was, hands down, the worst game for all the hype of the year. This game was hyped for years upon years, but man was the game not nearly as good as it could have been. Just looking at the things that were cut out, it really shows what we, the players, could have had.

    I still regret spending money for this game's Collector's Edition to this day.


    Sources:
    Weapon Enchants: http://youtu.be/5K0YkUH6r6c?t=2m20s
    Random Quests, Encounters, Dungeons: http://youtu.be/pMAyxY7mjzI?t=2m
    PvP: http://youtu.be/XCKtBR91KsY?hd=1
    Last edited by Oogzy; 2012-11-23 at 11:30 PM.

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  9. #429
    Pit Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migey View Post
    Fengore, sorry, but you are more or less as objectively wrong as you can get.

    F2P is a very viable buisiness model for many games, and companies like Valve and Riot have benefited hugely from making many popular games with this model. Sucessful MMOs can also be free to play.

    But do consider that SWTOR is estimated as the single most expensive game ever made, at over 300 million estimated spent on the game alone, and more on advertising. Going F2P so early for a game designed for the subscription model, from a company well known for wringing every cent or penny out of whatever they can, is pretty telling that the game did not do as well as they wanted it to. F2P no longer has to constitute failure, but in this case, it is a pretty good indicator. If going F2P was simply the game trying to adapt to the market, then why havn't all the other large MMOs done so recently? Because in most cases in which a game was not designed to be F2P, converting from subscription to F2P is generally an awkward process, and a last ditch effort to get something extra out of a game. In SWTOR this is particularly evident when you look at the state of the F2P itself in SWTOR; it is so ridiculously restricting (reduced exp, limited ui, limited loot rolls in instances, limited instance/warzone runs per week...) that it is clearly not designed in any sense to be properly played without paying. It seems more like a way to get attention to the game, to attempt to hook people in and force them to sub. Is this the action of an MMO which is a thriving success? No.

    I will not deny that I was dissapointed by SWTOR, and I knew very little about it until 2 months before release, so I had little time to buy into any hype, but that did not stop me enjoying it for what it was. I am not a jaded fanboy desperate for it to fail because I feel betrayed by EA, but I personally do not see how it can be viewed as anything other then a fail in an objective light.
    Your measurement for failure is obsolete, and I suspect driven by a pinch of schadenfreude.

    The game is alive and well, with a vibrant if not conspicuously "WoW-killing" player community. If it had shut its doors 8 months in then you could call it a failure without any honest objection. But it hasn't. It soldiers on -- maybe not in the direction you'd like, but soldiers on all the same. That is the exact opposite of failure.

    Please pull your head out of your backside.
    ^ The above should be taken with two grains of salt and a fistful of "chill the F* out".

  10. #430
    Legendary! Digglett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Profyrion View Post
    Your measurement for failure is obsolete, and I suspect driven by a pinch of schadenfreude.

    The game is alive and well, with a vibrant if not conspicuously "WoW-killing" player community. If it had shut its doors 8 months in then you could call it a failure without any honest objection. But it hasn't. It soldiers on -- maybe not in the direction you'd like, but soldiers on all the same. That is the exact opposite of failure.
    The fact that it's still alive, doesn't mean its not a failure.


  11. #431
    Bloodsail Admiral rashen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oogzy View Post
    Blizzard destroyed Diablo 3. Decimated it. In multiple ways even. Lets just go through the garbage pile of the game:

    Always Online DRM: Sorry Blizzard, this was a huge mistake. If my internet goes down, I can't play. I rarely, and I mean rarely, played with others, yet I can't play. It was obviously for the RMAH as well as a horrible, horrible form of DRM.
    This alone made me disappointed in D3, Having DRM screws with the hardcore section of the game as you only got 1 go and could lose characters because of the server.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Oogzy View Post
    Always Online DRM: Sorry Blizzard, this was a huge mistake. If my internet goes down, I can't play. I rarely, and I mean rarely, played with others, yet I can't play. It was obviously for the RMAH as well as a horrible, horrible form of DRM.
    A lot of people don't understand that if Blizzard stripped "always online" from Diablo 3, that doesn't mean you can just play your character when not connected. Diablo 2 had an offline mode, but it was entirely different from battle.net mode. If Diablo 2 style was what you personally wanted, then I'm sorry, but I have not seen many complain about that. It's mostly just "I want to play my toon when battle.net goes down", and if *that* was to be implemented, it would be an absolutely disastrous joke. I don't think I even need to explain why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oogzy View Post
    Weapon Enchant Attributes Cut: All but frost from weapons was removed. Yes, they have elemental damage still, but all the modifiers but frost were removed. Why? Who knows why it was removed, except that it was. There's no reason to go for enchants anymore except for extra damage.
    This was already explained by Blizzard: they thought that even with added utility, the one that players end up picking is the one that does most damage. Now look at what happened to frost damage. Not a huge success.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oogzy View Post
    Random Quests and Encounters: Back about 4, maybe 5 now, years ago we were promised with a great video that there would be random quests and random encounters. Those looked fantastically fun. Except they don't exist. At all. What random quests and encounters? Elite packs don't count, either.
    Random quests? You mean like getting the merchant's stuff back before the jail event in act 1, or the timed dungeon event in act 2, or the one where you have to defeat the beast that a guard managed to lock in a room, or the ever-changing encounters with the ghosts of NPCs you've encountered in previous acts in act 4? Just to give an example from each act. There's tons of more. Also there are hundreds of named unique monsters in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oogzy View Post
    Randomized Dungeons: Haha... No. Man, if you've played the game enough, there's barely any tile pieces that are used that make the game any different. There's really not much to the "randomness" of the zones. The roads are always in the same place. The dungeon floor plans are rarely much different and generally have 3-5 floor plans. Random? Yeah, right.
    I agree. But that's how it was in Diablo 2 as well. Roads always led to the next zone and the dungeons had patterns that when memorized, made navigating pretty easy. No idea what you're talking about with floor plans. Diablo 3 has no floor plans, it has "tiles" and game randomizes in what way they are arranged. This was exactly the same in Diablo 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oogzy View Post
    PvP: Oh, what's that, it's been 6 months and this STILL isn't in the game? It was announced and playable in 2010? Weird, I played a very working version of it at Blizzcon. It was incredibly fun and you could set up some great, great plays. I must have gone through this line 10 times over with a few friends, yet it's STILL not in the game. Weird.
    If you bought this game for PvP, then I'm truly sorry. No idea where your delusions of a great PvP came, but certainly not from Diablo 2, where PvP was more of a bad joke than anything.

    On topic:
    3. Bioshock. The game was not that bad, but since it was supposed to be a spiritual successor to System Shock, I may have set my bar too high. The game was far too simplified all the way from gameplay to story to map design. The worst is the praise it gets, while it's predecessor is something the new gaming community hasn't even heard of, despite it being one of the best games ever made. Kind of similar to Fallout 3 in that regard.

    2. Diablo 3. Again, not all that bad game but seeing how great the last installment was, it's a big disappointment. My main gripe is the storytelling and dialogue, as well as couple of butchered characters.

    1. Dragon Age 2. They totally butchered the tactical gameplay in favor of console hack'n'slash. That's like making a half assed fighting game and naming it Nascar '12, makes no sense whatsoever. Dialogue was god awful and the way conversation interaction was implemented has to be one of the worst game mechanics ever created.

  13. #433
    is it even a contest? the 3 greatest failures that had build-up leading to their release are

    Duke Nukem Forever
    Final Fantasy 14(I would use Final Fantasy 12 but 14 beats it by a large margin)
    Perfect Dark Zero

  14. #434
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meintastic View Post
    is it even a contest? the 3 greatest failures that had build-up leading to their release are

    Duke Nukem Forever
    Final Fantasy 14(I would use Final Fantasy 12 but 14 beats it by a large margin)
    Perfect Dark Zero
    What?! No!

    I'm about as much of a Final Fantasy snob as you can be (FFVI was better than FFVII, btw. Kefka>Sephiroth) and I absolutely loved FFXIV. Parts of it were a little meh, but it has my favorite soundtrack of any Final Fantasy game, and visually it was one of the most beautiful games I've ever played (rivaling even Baiten Kaitos)

    Edit: Good lord, I was thinking of Final Fantasy 13 >.<
    Yes, Final Fantasy 14 is blatantly awful
    Last edited by Kalyyn; 2012-11-24 at 05:21 AM.

  15. #435
    SWTOR made it's money back of course. So not failure financially. But it's a failure as an MMORPG. Other than the story and questing, the game is mediocre in almost every way.

    EA wanted a WoW, so they made a clone but with a Star Wars theme. If your going to try to compete with WoW, then please don't make the game worse than it.

  16. #436
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digglett View Post
    The fact that it's still alive, doesn't mean its not a failure.
    It's alive and making a profit.

    If that's failure, your standards of success are exceedingly high.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 05:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Meintastic View Post
    is it even a contest? the 3 greatest failures that had build-up leading to their release are

    Duke Nukem Forever
    Final Fantasy 14(I would use Final Fantasy 12 but 14 beats it by a large margin)
    Perfect Dark Zero
    I don't recall any marketing for FFXIV.

    Daikatana however....

  17. #437
    Legendary! Digglett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fengore View Post
    It's alive and making a profit.

    If that's failure, your standards of success are exceedingly high.
    Failure isn't always financial.


  18. #438
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digglett View Post
    Failure isn't always financial.
    This makes zero sense. It's a business venture and it makes money, it still has a stable income and supports itself and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.


    The game was disappointing, but it wasn't a failure. A failure would be closed servers, record losses, offices shutting, Bioware culling staff from other divisions to fund the debt and EA not going near the online market.

    Y'know, like Ion Storm.

  19. #439
    Legendary! Digglett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fengore View Post
    This makes zero sense. It's a business venture
    Right. We're not just talking business here. But, if we are, for the amount it was made for, it should be making waaay more than it currently is.


  20. #440
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digglett View Post
    Right. We're not just talking business here. But, if we are, for the amount it was made for, it should be making waaay more than it currently is.
    It paid itself off and made a profit. There are varying degrees of success, and it might not have been as successful as they hoped, but that doesn't make it a failure.

    I can't see any other critique to calling a game a failure, it's still alive, running with an active subscriber base and making a financial gain.

    Can it be a disappointing game that lacks content at the endgame and is full of bugs? Yes. Can it be added to the evergrowing list of games that were overhyped and didn't deliver to the gibbering masses the nirvana of genre gameplay they'd hoped for? Yes. Is it still buggy and infuriating to play like nearly every other MMO in their first year because people had unrealistic expectations that bugs were a thing of the past? Yes.

    If anything, TOR is guilty of having short vision developers who made a massive oversight at the end game, and a raving fanbase that really thought this time WoW would have real competition.

    It was a disappointment for people who expected too much, or who lacked foresight in what they were creating. But a game that was critically acclaimed with great reviews and high marks, and continues to fill the bank accounts at EA? Well actually that's a failure I suppose in some people's eyes, another game helps EA get rich.

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