1. #1

    10/25 Lockouts, Cross Realm Raiding and the Community

    Here's a thread from US forums, about split lockouts, cross realm raiding, and how it affects the community.
    This thread is meant to be constructive, please don't troll or post replies such as "awful idea" etc.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...8648110?page=1

    Here's the thread.

    For those who don't want to click the link

    *NOTE*: Please do not reply unless you have read the entire thread including all reasoning.
    Please do not reply with one word answers that disagree with anything in this post. If you wish to disagree, please give reasoning as to why my ideas and/or other's ideas do not work, and whether they should be scrapped or perhaps modified.
    Please be constructive.


    Let me start off by saying that I feel, having 10/25 split lockouts AND Cross realm raiding for current tier content (with certain restrictions to prevent deaths of guilds etc.) would be beneficial to both Blizzard AND the community as a whole.

    One of the strongest times in WoW's raiding scene was during Wrath, when we had split lockouts, allowing people to do so much more content, communities were exploding with pugs of all sorts, guild recruitments were at an all time high. With the release of Cata, from my personal experience on the server of Blackrock, the community that Blackrock had built over the years, completely died. Let's face it, to do well in Cataclysm, you had to be in a guild, an idea that Blizzard promoted with their new guild structuring etc. This absolutely killed off the pug scene, that and not having split lockouts meant that people couldn't pug raids every day of the week.

    During Wrath, as anyone from a decent sized server would know, every day of the week, you'd be able to find multiple 10/25man raids running, GDKPs, pugs killing Heroic bosses, everything. The moment Cata dropped, all trade is filled with these days is guild recruitment spam for 10man guilds that are all crumbling and dying. Even major 25man guilds are dying these days, guilds that have been around for a long time. It's suffocating the raiding in WoW, which may not seem like such a big deal on its' own, but as an MMO, this game is built around playing in a community, and if the community is not there, the game becomes stale.

    I believe this could be fixed with some minor adjustments that wouldn't take much effort at all, the coding is already in the game in both Korea and China. Split lockouts again for all raids (Old content as well) as well as Cross Realm raiding for current content.
    These changes would do the following, a) allow a greater number of players to merge with the community again, instead of being 'stuck' in guild raids, players would be able to pug so much more content; b) cross realm raiding via websites such as www.OpenRaid.US, or even a Blizzard promoted method (Something to be worked upon), would forge friendships and allow players to find guilds/groups that are better for them personally.

    This would be beneficial to both Blizz as it would increase the number of server transfers, as opposed to decreasing, via a few methods, restriction to benefits of being in a raid group would be one, if there were guild perks that applied specifically to raids/BGs when in a guild group, I can't think of any, but I'm sure there are ways, obviously realm first achieves would require everyone on the same server, or maybe preventing people from using bonus rolls unless the player is on the same server as the majority of the group, and if there's no majority, the same server as the leader.

    eg. Players 1-7 are from realm A
    Players 8-10 are from realm B.
    Players 8-10 are unable to use their bonus roll, or even set the host realm as the group leader's realm for the method of deciding whether they can use bonus rolls or not. Small things like that, that wouldn't really affect much as a whole, but would encourage people to group up on the same server.

    Obviously also the other benefits of being on the same server as other players, being in a guild as a whole.

    I may have rambled on a bit, but I can only see this as a positive improvement if re-implemented correctly.

    On the topic of loot being a higher iLvl in 25man, my personal belief is that it should be, but 25man should maybe even drop less loot per person than 10man, so the loot is stronger in 25man, but there's less of it, or some other solution that prevents favouritism, but also prevents players feeling the 'need' to run both modes every week unless they're in the top 10 in the world.

    Maybe have 10man loot be able to be upgraded to 25man standards via a cost of 500-1000 VP per piece, whilst having 25man drop less loot.

    Another method for loot would be to simply have both modes as the same iLvl, but have a tag on the items to denote whether it's a 10man or 25man piece for the purpose of gear colouration. There are so many gear colouring options that aren't used ingame but have been designed, Green DK Tier 11 comes to mind, options like this could be split into 10/25man with the addition of transmog, thus adding more reason for people to get out in the community and do the other mode because they find one colour's version particularly 'siiiiiiiiiiiiiick'.

    I'm sure there are many ways to do this, but the main point I'm trying to make is, there needs to be some kind of change as lots of guilds are dying, communities as a whole are dying.

    The cross realm change would also assist highly with raiding on dead servers, servers where there's only 10-20 level 90s on at any one time could then find groups for current content instead of being walled in to only having LFR available.

    This is just my opinion, but I know a LOT of people, both those currently playing WoW, as well as previous players that believe split lockouts and/or similar changes to be highly beneficial and that they would like to see them re-implemented.

    I think maybe also for players that have trouble running 25man, there should be a video option for 25man raiding on a low end computer that can turn off spell graphics hitting the boss, atmospheric effects, things that aren't really necessary, it auto turns down your settings to minimums, but is set to the correct settings for showing ground/spell effects/mechanics that matter to the boss in particular. Like a toggle switch on the Ultra slider scale thing at the bottom, or a checkbox.
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  2. #2
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    It's a bit confused, I think.

    Wants to increase community by reducing the need to interact with others on a long term basis and instead favour pugging.

    And seems to have missed that the reason cata killed pugging was due to increased raiding difficulty and that the reason the lockouts came in was because of burnout. He's also missed that we already have the system he wants minus the extra ilvl, automated - LFR.

    Confused at best, won't work.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    It's a bit confused, I think.

    Wants to increase community by reducing the need to interact with others on a long term basis and instead favour pugging.

    And seems to have missed that the reason cata killed pugging was due to increased raiding difficulty and that the reason the lockouts came in was because of burnout. He's also missed that we already have the system he wants minus the extra ilvl, automated - LFR.

    Confused at best, won't work.
    LFR is not raiding.
    Split lockouts being removed causes more problems than it fixes.
    And how does it not increase the community via interacting with your server.
    Pugging =/= short term basis. Play on a server where reputation matters.
    Interacting with players in LFR is a short term basis which kills community.
    Hakushi - Main Shaman - 587 Enh/573 Ele 8/8 HM DS (5% Nerf Spine/Madness), 7/7 HM FL, 6/6 HM MSV, 6/6 HM HoF, 4/4 HM ToES, 13/13 HM ToT, 14/14 HM SoO
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  4. #4
    I agree with Cross realm raiding of current tier, probably the different colouring could be doable.
    Disagree on shared lockouts and different ilvl.

    I also think that the post is way too dramatic, "there needs to be some kind of change as lots of guilds are dying, communities as a whole are dying"... there are dead servers but they surely aren't the majority.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    LFR is not raiding.
    LFR difficulty level is a requirement for your idea to work.
    Split lockouts being removed causes more problems than it fixes.
    Hasn't caused any problems at all, afaik.
    And how does it not increase the community via interacting with your server.
    People on a server can already technically do what you suggest. They can't really atm because the raid difficulty is too high to allow for it.
    Pugging =/= short term basis. Play on a server where reputation matters.
    Nah, behave. Remember the trinket from saurfang? Arena players stealing it because it was that good and then paying for a rename. Plus your idea is cross realm, reputation would be irrelevent.
    Interacting with players in LFR is a short term basis which kills community.
    And it's exactly the same as the above idea. SO yeah, won't work.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Stannis View Post
    I agree with Cross realm raiding of current tier, probably the different colouring could be doable.
    Disagree on shared lockouts and different ilvl.

    I also think that the post is way too dramatic, "there needs to be some kind of change as lots of guilds are dying, communities as a whole are dying"... there are dead servers but they surely aren't the majority.
    Different iLvl is my personal belief, hence why I also suggested what could be done differently if iLvl was the same (colouration options etc.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    LFR difficulty level is a requirement for your idea to work.


    Hasn't caused any problems at all, afaik.


    People on a server can already technically do what you suggest. They can't really atm because the raid difficulty is too high to allow for it.


    Nah, behave. Remember the trinket from saurfang? Arena players stealing it because it was that good and then paying for a rename. Plus your idea is cross realm, reputation would be irrelevent.


    And it's exactly the same as the above idea. SO yeah, won't work.
    LFR is there as a means for people who don't have the time to do pugs, to see the content. It's there for people who don't feel confident doing normal mode, to see the content.

    Current content isn't difficult, pugs can be successful, the problem is, most people can't pug because they're raiding with a guild, in Wrath, people who had set groups even as a 10man guild, were still able to pug 25mans, whether this meant joining with another 10man guild to do a 25man run, any number of things, now you can't interact with your community, as you have no open raid lockout to use for pugging.

    Split lockouts being removed, removed most of the players on a server from being able to pug for reason above.

    Trinket from Saurfang for PvP? Pointless with the new PvP system. Cross realm, reputation still applies, as chances are, the people you're recruiting cross realm are for purposes of guild recruitment, friends on a different server, or they could be random pugs, the same reputation applies cross server as it does on the same server. That's why sites like Openraid.US or Openraid.EU exist, to allow people to point out the bad apples in a group.

    See above about LFR.
    No one interacts in LFR.
    There's no need to interact in LFR.
    In a proper raid environment, regardless of how theoretically easy it is, there's a need to interact to at least point out who's doing what.
    LFR is a zergfest.
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  7. #7
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post


    LFR is there as a means for people who don't have the time to do pugs, to see the content. It's there for people who don't feel confident doing normal mode, to see the content.
    it's also the only way to get large amounts of the community raiding.
    Current content isn't difficult, pugs can be successful, the problem is, most people can't pug because they're raiding with a guild, in Wrath, people who had set groups even as a 10man guild, were still able to pug 25mans, whether this meant joining with another 10man guild to do a 25man run, any number of things, now you can't interact with your community, as you have no open raid lockout to use for pugging.
    No, current content is difficult and people are raiding with guilds because it's too tricky to pug. For your idea to work, content would have to be tuned lower.
    Split lockouts being removed, removed most of the players on a server from being able to pug for reason above.
    LFR means there are 5 minute queues for a pug at all times, day or night.
    Trinket from Saurfang for PvP? Pointless with the new PvP system. Cross realm, reputation still applies, as chances are, the people you're recruiting cross realm are for purposes of guild recruitment, friends on a different server, or they could be random pugs, the same reputation applies cross server as it does on the same server. That's why sites like Openraid.US or Openraid.EU exist, to allow people to point out the bad apples in a group.
    SO you want blizard to solve a problem that's already been fixed (and which doesn't matter to enough people anyway.)
    See above about LFR.
    No one interacts in LFR.
    There's no need to interact in LFR.
    In a proper raid environment, regardless of how theoretically easy it is, there's a need to interact to at least point out who's doing what.
    LFR is a zergfest.
    And if you want raids to be puggable to enough people for it make a dent in the community, raids will have to be LFR level.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    it's also the only way to get large amounts of the community raiding.


    No, current content is difficult and people are raiding with guilds because it's too tricky to pug. For your idea to work, content would have to be tuned lower.


    LFR means there are 5 minute queues for a pug at all times, day or night.


    SO you want blizard to solve a problem that's already been fixed (and which doesn't matter to enough people anyway.)


    And if you want raids to be puggable to enough people for it make a dent in the community, raids will have to be LFR level.
    I think you severely underestimate the skill of pugs.
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  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    I think you severely underestimate the skill of pugs.
    I think you are mistaking a pug where you dismiss 90% of the playerbase with something that has an impact on the community.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I think you are mistaking a pug where you dismiss 90% of the playerbase with something that has an impact on the community.
    I spent the entirety of Wrath, pugging raids, I've seen good pugs, bad pugs, ninjas, everything, I was on the biggest server in the world. It held the title as the largest server in the world. US-Blackrock.

    I'd say I'm pretty intimately familiar with how pugs are.
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  11. #11
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    My experience of pugs in wrath were a blast, I do miss the old lockout system, cata pretty muck destroyed pugs on our server, you raid with your guild and thats it. Shame really. I would like to see the changes OP has suggested.

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    I spent the entirety of Wrath, pugging raids, I've seen good pugs, bad pugs, ninjas, everything, I was on the biggest server in the world. It held the title as the largest server in the world. US-Blackrock.

    I'd say I'm pretty intimately familiar with how pugs are.
    Ok, so your experience of pugs was when raiding was a minority interest and when pugs were a minority interest within that sphere.

    But you've made the mistake of thinking that it had some impact on the community. That's all.

    Minus LFR level difficulty, the Op ideas aren't going to have an impact. That's just how it is.
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  13. #13
    Just wanted to say that Im unhappy that Blizzard is forcing me to be in a guild when i prefer to stay guildless for some time.I'm also unhappy that Blizzard is almost forcing me to "raid" that retarded 10 mans due to 25 mans consequently dying.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Ok, so your experience of pugs was when raiding was a minority interest and when pugs were a minority interest within that sphere.

    But you've made the mistake of thinking that it had some impact on the community. That's all.

    Minus LFR level difficulty, the Op ideas aren't going to have an impact. That's just how it is.
    You don't know anything about US-Blackrock.
    It wasn't known as the biggest and best server. In the world. For no reason.
    Pugs there ranged from the lowest, to being able to pug Heroic LK during Wrath. Yes. Pug heroic LK. Pug 25 Heroic Anub. etc.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-18 at 09:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorn View Post
    Just wanted to say that Im unhappy that Blizzard is forcing me to be in a guild when i prefer to stay guildless for some time.I'm also unhappy that Blizzard is almost forcing me to "raid" that retarded 10 mans due to 25 mans consequently dying.
    If you're on EU, start up similar threads. The more notice there is that people aren't happy about these things, the more we can work as a community to improve.
    Being negative like the other guy in the thread and saying, THIS WON'T WORK NANANANANANA, doesn't really help anything.
    Promote ideas to help improve raiding, because right now, lots of guilds and servers are dying.
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  15. #15
    Another "no shared lockouts-killed raiding"-thread without regarding the age of wow? Plus and OP that belives people liked to be forced to do raids in 10 AND 25man?
    you clearly havent played in WoTLK...

  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    You don't know anything about US-Blackrock.
    It wasn't known as the biggest and best server. In the world. For no reason.
    Pugs there ranged from the lowest, to being able to pug Heroic LK during Wrath. Yes. Pug heroic LK. Pug 25 Heroic Anub. etc.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-18 at 09:31 PM ----------



    If you're on EU, start up similar threads. The more notice there is that people aren't happy about these things, the more we can work as a community to improve.
    Being negative like the other guy in the thread and saying, THIS WON'T WORK NANANANANANA, doesn't really help anything.
    Promote ideas to help improve raiding, because right now, lots of guilds and servers are dying.
    The biggest server in the world with lots of raiding on it is still an irrelevence.

    Until LFR raiding was a niche interest and had little impact on the community.

    TO bhe positive - it can work IF you can accept the LFR level difficulty for raids that will have to be there to make it work. it'd mean the end of normal raids and probab;y HC modes too. Hey ho.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    LFR is not raiding.
    if it requires a raid group to enter, then its a raid by definition. Stop being an wanna-be elitist douchebag.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    Split lockouts being removed causes more problems than it fixes.
    How ? all it premotes is people playing more, if people cant limit themselves or play so much that they "burn out" then they have far worse problems than not being able to do all the content and should seek psychological advice from a proffessional.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    Pugging =/= short term basis. Play on a server where reputation matters.
    Personnel Reputation on a realm stopped being of any relevance at all the moment that PCT and Character renaming became available.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxyra View Post
    Interacting with players in LFR is a short term basis which kills community.
    How does interacting with people in LFR kill the community ? What kills the community is people not participating in the community.


    Whilst not all of the OP's ideas are going to work, especially not the one regarding bonus roll coins (would cause Huge QQ) I do think that Blizzard should either re-introduce the split lockouts. (which would cause a few problems for guilds having to recruit etc) or come right out and say that they no longer want to support 25 mans at all and simply stop making raids of that size.

    As for loot distribution, the WOTLK method was fine. Sure people burned out on the content as they were running multiple raids, and this is there own fault for placing a higher value on the game than there mental well being. However for a lot of people I know, it was great as we would be able to run our 25 man raid during the week day nights, and at the weekend go pugging 10 mans. Yes loot should be of a lower Ilevel, in 10 mans, but not so much as it makes a significate difference to make people feel like they need to run 10 mans and 25's for progression reasons.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Siggma View Post
    if it requires a raid group to enter, then its a raid by definition. Stop being an wanna-be elitist douchebag.

    How ? all it premotes is people playing more, if people cant limit themselves or play so much that they "burn out" then they have far worse problems than not being able to do all the content and should seek psychological advice from a proffessional.

    Personnel Reputation on a realm stopped being of any relevance at all the moment that PCT and Character renaming became available.

    How does interacting with people in LFR kill the community ? What kills the community is people not participating in the community.


    Whilst not all of the OP's ideas are going to work, especially not the one regarding bonus roll coins (would cause Huge QQ) I do think that Blizzard should either re-introduce the split lockouts. (which would cause a few problems for guilds having to recruit etc) or come right out and say that they no longer want to support 25 mans at all and simply stop making raids of that size.

    As for loot distribution, the WOTLK method was fine. Sure people burned out on the content as they were running multiple raids, and this is there own fault for placing a higher value on the game than there mental well being. However for a lot of people I know, it was great as we would be able to run our 25 man raid during the week day nights, and at the weekend go pugging 10 mans. Yes loot should be of a lower Ilevel, in 10 mans, but not so much as it makes a significate difference to make people feel like they need to run 10 mans and 25's for progression reasons.
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    What's character renaming/server transferring? I don't know when I can track all the guilds you've been in (Not 100% accurate, does take a little to update at times, but 99% of the time, you can track just about anyone.)

    As for any concepts in my idea, I guess everyone is missing the point where I said they should be implemented EXACTLY as I said them.

    And LFR isn't raiding. LFR is a loot fest with moving target dummies.
    It's more possible to wipe in current LFR than in DS LFR true, but every LFR I've been in, during this expansion, hasn't wiped on one boss, not even Spirit Kings where we got Meng first (MC guy that makes your raid kill each other).

    Oh and do remember that positive reputation has as much bearing as negative reputation.
    When leaders become well known for running successful groups, having fair loot rules etc. It's a benefit.

    And yes you're right, the people that play too much are at their own fault as opposed to being 'forced' to run the raids.
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  19. #19
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...8648110?page=4

    Lots of discussion on the thread.

    Please read and comprehend everything that's said before you counter argue, or support even.
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