Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan30 View Post
    What exactly is the 'elite' flag on these items? Are they just super rare drops of the same item with the flag or what? I understand we have :
    LFR
    10 man (normal)
    25 man (heroic)

    but where do the normal (elite) and heroic (elite) come from?
    you get the elite items by defeating the encounter in a diffrent way which makes it harder, like the assembly of iron's difficulty from ulduar was diffrent depending on which order you killed them.

    In Terrace you get the elite item if you kill protector kaolan last in that fight

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Gobuchul View Post
    Because it isn't clear from reading the thread, I thought I'd emphasize: Everything the OP has posted is wrong. MH/OH is always clearly (if only slightly) better than 2H this tier. Even if you compare only the LFR versions of the sha-touched weapons (combined with the LFR version of the off hand from blade lord) you end up with a difference of 149 intellect in favor of the MH/OH combo, vs 43 secondary stat points and 2 spell power in favor of the staff. 149 intellect wins every time.

    But yes, the absolute BiS is the heroic elite MH.
    The heroic Elite MH is not Sha Touched, so how is that going to be BiS?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Prolly going for sword so I can finally use Rigormortis for xmog :S
    No you won't. Apparently the powers that be decided that the sha-touched sword is a ONE-HANDED item instead of main hand so all the previous caster swords are out. On the other hand, you can use a number of tank/melee swords instead. >.>

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Spektroman View Post
    No you won't. Apparently the powers that be decided that the sha-touched sword is a ONE-HANDED item instead of main hand so all the previous caster swords are out. On the other hand, you can use a number of tank/melee swords instead. >.>
    Actually this one Maldo's Sword cane is main hand too. I noticed it to my detriment when I wanted to use it for my transmog the other day.


    Late, late EDIT: Completely derped there, meant to link Amber Saber of Klaxxi'vess which is one-handed too. >.<
    Last edited by xskarma; 2012-11-21 at 05:33 PM.
    Your Soul Shall Suffer! ||| Forum rules ||| New England Patriots

  5. #25
    You fellow locks are probably going to hate me. I ran terrace today with 3 coins. I got the staff and the 1h (and a helm to boot! all with coins). I played around with both and found that as a human warlock the 1h/offhand combo was well worth it (1% expertise = 1% hit). I am sure they go back and forth depending on your total stat budget for non humans. Just my 2cents!


    ps. Freaking coins man. Freaking coins ^_^
    I play many games. WoW, Rift, D3, PoE, SC2 I will not criticize your game choice if you don't mine.

  6. #26
    "Freaking coins man."

    Or as I call them. Little golden lies. lol

  7. #27
    I'm probably going with the HC version of sha-touched staff because I promised our mage that he can have the MH+OH combo, better for fire statwise than for my lock
    Currently using 502wand and scribe offhand, got 496 sha-touched staff laying in bank waiting for the gem.
    I hate losing 1% hit bonus of that wand because I'm an orc, but meh, with staff I can goof around with demonology if I ever feel like that...
    Jokkepappa of Depraved
    EU - Twilight's Hammer
    WoWProgress

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinjin View Post
    "Freaking coins man."

    Or as I call them. Little golden lies. lol
    My favorite is when it rolls and you see loot and you're like "FUCK YEAH BITCH!" and then you see it's an item you already have...that gives me a tingly feeling in my balls.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  9. #29
    Epic! Skayth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Backwards Country
    Posts
    1,619
    i hate loshan =( They screwed me out of my transmogged tempest chaos. If they are going to begin going down the path of spell blades being 1h rather than mh only, they should make the transmog allowable for mh <===>1h, otherwise they screw some people over.

    But, yea, loshan and oh are bis spec, even over that sad excuse of 515. (they should have given us something else, like shoulders or something). The 500 int will beat out all the stats that are on it. The only reason why the "robots" are saying the dagger is better is simply because...... its 515 ilvl. And the mh+oh is still better than the staff.

    and got my lfr version of loshan today... no coins needed... but... i usually just get gold =(

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfen View Post
    But, yea, loshan and oh are bis spec, even over that sad excuse of 515. (they should have given us something else, like shoulders or something). The 500 int will beat out all the stats that are on it. The only reason why the "robots" are saying the dagger is better is simply because...... its 515 ilvl.
    Yeah.. no.
    http://wowupgrade.com/ - instant gear comparison for all classes / specs

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    The heroic Elite MH is not Sha Touched, so how is that going to be BiS?
    It's been known for quite a while now that the Heroic Elite Dagger is better than the Sha-Touched sword. Check the numbers, Sam.

    Pre-5.1, the Dagger is the clear winner, by quite a bit. In 5.1 however, IF there is an added Prismatic Socket (which is what people are saying now) to the Sha-Touched Sword, then the Sword will win, though not by a whole lot. If you get +550 Int instead of the +500 in 5.1, then the Dagger is still better.

    So to sum it up:

    Pre-5.1: Regail's Crackling Dagger (Heroic Elite) > Loshan, Terror Incarnate (Heroic)
    Post-5.1 (assuming +550 Int from Legendary Gem): Regail's Crackling Dagger (Heroic Elite) > Loshan, Terror Incarnate (Heroic)
    Post-5.1 (assuming Prismatic Socket): Loshan, Terror Incarnate (Heroic) > Regail's Crackling Dagger (Heroic Elite)

    All assuming non-Human, heh. ^^
    Last edited by Iskald; 2012-11-21 at 09:23 AM.

  12. #32
    Stood in the Fire Haizer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    The top sock drawer
    Posts
    429
    Quote Originally Posted by Iskald View Post
    It's been known for quite a while now that the Heroic Elite Dagger is better than the Sha-Touched sword. Check the numbers, Sam.

    Pre-5.1, the Dagger is the clear winner, by quite a bit. In 5.1 however, IF there is an added Prismatic Socket (which is what people are saying now) to the Sha-Touched Sword, then the Sword will win, though not by a whole lot. If you get +550 Int instead of the +500 in 5.1, then the Dagger is still better.

    So to sum it up:

    Pre-5.1: Regail's Crackling Dagger (Heroic Elite) > Loshan, Terror Incarnate (Heroic)
    Post-5.1 (assuming +550 Int from Legendary Gem): Regail's Crackling Dagger (Heroic Elite) > Loshan, Terror Incarnate (Heroic)
    Post-5.1 (assuming Prismatic Socket): Loshan, Terror Incarnate (Heroic) > Regail's Crackling Dagger (Heroic Elite)

    All assuming non-Human, heh. ^^
    Actually
    Pre-5.1: HE Regail's Crackling Dagger > H Loshan, Terror Incarnate (by ~170 DPS)
    Post-5.1: H Loshan, Terror Incarnate > HE Regail's Crackling Dagger (with 550 gem or with 500 gem and an extra prismatic)(550 gem would yield ~68 dps over the dagger)

    Going by Simcrafts BIS stat weights:
    Int 4.77
    SP 3.7
    Mastery 2.7
    Haste 2.54
    Hit 2.39
    Crit 1.89

    Pre-5.1:
    H Loshan, Terror Incarnate- (592 * 4.77) + (240 * 1.89) + (160 * 2.7) + (385 * 2.54) + (7907 * 3.7) + (500 * 4.77)= 36328.24
    Reforged crit to mastery and added the 500 gem
    HE Regail's Crackling Dagger- (552 * 4.77) + (197 * 1.89) + (132 * 2.54) + (412 * 2.7) + (8441 * 3.7) + (80 * 4.77) + (160 * 2.7)= 36498.35
    Reforged crit to haste and added a 80 int/160 mastery gem
    **Stats are added to show highest gain on a single item, it is obviously situational to what you currently have**

    Post-5.1(550 gem):
    H Loshan, Terror Incarnate- (592 * 4.77) + (240 * 1.89) + (160 * 2.7) + (385 * 2.54) + (7907 * 3.7) + (550 * 4.77)= 36566.74
    Reforged crit to mastery and added the 550 gem
    HE Regail's Crackling Dagger- (552 * 4.77) + (197 * 1.89) + (132 * 2.54) + (412 * 2.7) + (8441 * 3.7) + (80 * 4.77) + (160 * 2.7)= 36498.35
    Reforged crit to haste and added a 80 int/160 mastery gem
    **Stats are added to show highest gain on a single item, it is obviously situational to what you currently have**

    It would be more if there is a prismatic. Also this is obviously assuming that you have the same OH, which would yield the exact same dps if I added the math for that as well. Onto the staff!

    Pre-5.1 I will add the OH dps in with the MH dps:
    Tornado-Summoning Censer- (769 * 4.77) + (390 * 2.39) + (351 * 1.89) + (234 * 2.7)+(165*4.77)= 6682.47
    Reforged crit to mastery and added the 165 int enchant
    6682.47+36498.35(dagger)= 43180.82

    Now the staff:
    Jin'ya, Orb of the Waterspeaker- (1380 * 4.77) + (511 * 1.89) + (341 * 2.7) + (961 * 2.54) + (7907 * 3.7) + (500 * 4.77)= 42550.93
    Reforged crit to mastery and added the 500 int gem

    DPS difference of ~630 DPS

    Post 5.1:
    MH+OH(Loshun and Censer): 43249.21

    Staff: (1380 * 4.77) + (511 * 1.89) + (341 * 2.7) + (961 * 2.54) + (7907 * 3.7) + (550 * 4.77)= 42789.43

    DPS difference of ~460

    Right now before 5.1 the dagger and oh is BIS, but once 5.1 hits whether it be 550 int or a prismatic(if either come) then the sword and oh will be BIS. Now you can still go staff and be viable easily, but min/maxing MH+OH is better.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Haizer View Post
    Actually
    Pre-5.1: HE Regail's Crackling Dagger > H Loshan, Terror Incarnate (by ~170 DPS)
    Post-5.1: H Loshan, Terror Incarnate > HE Regail's Crackling Dagger (with 550 gem or with 500 gem and an extra prismatic)(550 gem would yield ~68 dps over the dagger)

    Going by Simcrafts BIS stat weights:
    Int 4.77
    SP 3.7
    Mastery 2.7
    Haste 2.54
    Hit 2.39
    Crit 1.89

    Pre-5.1:
    H Loshan, Terror Incarnate- (592 * 4.77) + (240 * 1.89) + (160 * 2.7) + (385 * 2.54) + (7907 * 3.7) + (500 * 4.77)= 36328.24
    Reforged crit to mastery and added the 500 gem
    HE Regail's Crackling Dagger- (552 * 4.77) + (197 * 1.89) + (132 * 2.54) + (412 * 2.7) + (8441 * 3.7) + (80 * 4.77) + (160 * 2.7)= 36498.35
    Reforged crit to haste and added a 80 int/160 mastery gem
    **Stats are added to show highest gain on a single item, it is obviously situational to what you currently have**

    Post-5.1(550 gem):
    H Loshan, Terror Incarnate- (592 * 4.77) + (240 * 1.89) + (160 * 2.7) + (385 * 2.54) + (7907 * 3.7) + (550 * 4.77)= 36566.74
    Reforged crit to mastery and added the 550 gem
    HE Regail's Crackling Dagger- (552 * 4.77) + (197 * 1.89) + (132 * 2.54) + (412 * 2.7) + (8441 * 3.7) + (80 * 4.77) + (160 * 2.7)= 36498.35
    Reforged crit to haste and added a 80 int/160 mastery gem
    **Stats are added to show highest gain on a single item, it is obviously situational to what you currently have**

    It would be more if there is a prismatic. Also this is obviously assuming that you have the same OH, which would yield the exact same dps if I added the math for that as well. Onto the staff!

    Pre-5.1 I will add the OH dps in with the MH dps:
    Tornado-Summoning Censer- (769 * 4.77) + (390 * 2.39) + (351 * 1.89) + (234 * 2.7)+(165*4.77)= 6682.47
    Reforged crit to mastery and added the 165 int enchant
    6682.47+36498.35(dagger)= 43180.82

    Now the staff:
    Jin'ya, Orb of the Waterspeaker- (1380 * 4.77) + (511 * 1.89) + (341 * 2.7) + (961 * 2.54) + (7907 * 3.7) + (500 * 4.77)= 42550.93
    Reforged crit to mastery and added the 500 int gem

    DPS difference of ~630 DPS

    Post 5.1:
    MH+OH(Loshun and Censer): 43249.21

    Staff: (1380 * 4.77) + (511 * 1.89) + (341 * 2.7) + (961 * 2.54) + (7907 * 3.7) + (550 * 4.77)= 42789.43

    DPS difference of ~460

    Right now before 5.1 the dagger and oh is BIS, but once 5.1 hits whether it be 550 int or a prismatic(if either come) then the sword and oh will be BIS. Now you can still go staff and be viable easily, but min/maxing MH+OH is better.
    If you want to make sure you can't just take the scale values of the bis list and reforge to the best value there. You have to implement both weapons, do a complete rereforge (as it may allow you a better reforge overall if it allows you another allocation for getting hitcapped for example) and sim both profiles to compare. Also using an orange gem for a blue socket is not really the best option for the dagger. (as you didn't include the socket bonus and assumed that the hit gem which should be inserted translates roughly to mastery here)
    The next thing missing is the value of buffs. You get a 5% Stat and a 10% Spellpower Buff in a raid environment which should be included in the calculation.
    Last edited by realCool; 2012-11-21 at 01:03 PM.

  14. #34
    Stood in the Fire Haizer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    The top sock drawer
    Posts
    429
    Quote Originally Posted by realCool View Post
    If you want to make sure you can't just take the scale values of the bis list and reforge to the best value there. You have to implement both weapons, do a complete rereforge (as it may allow you a better reforge overall if it allows you another allocation for getting hitcapped for example) and sim both profiles to compare. Also using an orange gem for a blue socket is not really the best option for the dagger. (as you didn't include the socket bonus and assumed that the hit gem which should be inserted translates roughly to mastery here)
    The next thing missing is the value of buffs. You get a 5% Stat and a 10% Spellpower Buff in a raid environment which should be included in the calculation.
    Read the part where I put **Stats added to show highest gain on a single item**, the socket for the dagger is crit, so there is completely useless, and I wasn't simming overall dps for an entire set, just the weapons themselves. If I wanted to sim an entire set I would have done just that. Obviously with stats and SP the item with the highest dps will more than likely still be the highest dps. Especially if it has more int than the other option.

    Edit: To clarify, it was just the basics of the weapons to show how close they are. If you want to min/max 60 dps go for it, be my guest, but honestly I'll choose whichever I like better visually.
    Last edited by Haizer; 2012-11-21 at 01:13 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Haizer View Post
    Read the part where I put **Stats added to show highest gain on a single item**, the socket for the dagger is crit, so there is completely useless, and I wasn't simming overall dps for an entire set, just the weapons themselves. If I wanted to sim an entire set I would have done just that. Obviously with stats and SP the item with the highest dps will more than likely still be the highest dps. Especially if it has more int than the other option.
    Read where I wrote: if you want to make sure
    You give out a fix statement with incomplete math, and assume that it's true, which may be the case, but your calculation didn't prove it. Also saying that a secondary stat is completly useless is a quite strange assumption. Crit may be the weakest stat but still gives an dps increase and as such is not useless.
    The scale values tell you what you get when you take the values they were calculated with an add something. You remove the weapon and then use the wrong scale values to add different weapons. This only gives a rough result. If you want to improve that you must sim a whole set. Then you can see the difference. Simcraft also is not perfect but at least it gives more accurate results than using wrong scale numbers, ignoring buffs and socket bonuses without regard to a possible better reforge.
    Last edited by realCool; 2012-11-21 at 01:19 PM.

  16. #36
    You're literally comparing one staff to one pair of mh/oh.
    Stat itemization will differ. Seems equal enough for me.
    Nyoro~n? (´・ω・`)
    5:2 diet? Pft!

    One year, 62kg/136lb lost. Only a little bit left...

  17. #37
    Stood in the Fire Haizer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    The top sock drawer
    Posts
    429
    Quote Originally Posted by realCool View Post
    Read where I wrote: if you want to make sure
    You give out a fix statement with incomplete math, and assume that it's true, which may be the case, but your calculation didn't prove it. Also saying that a secondary stat is completly useless is a quite strange assumption. Crit may be the weakest stat but still gives an dps increase and as such is not useless.
    The scale values tell you what you get when you take the values they were calculated with an add something. You remove the weapon and then use the wrong scale values to add different weapons. This only gives a rough result. If you want to improve that you must sim a whole set. Then you can see the difference. Simcraft also is not perfect but at least it gives more accurate results than using wrong scale numbers, ignoring buffs and socket bonuses without regard to a possible better reforge.
    1. I don't think you understand english. The. DPS. of. a. single. item. Uno. Ichi.
    2. I want to see your math since mine is so incomplete. Also I assumed nothing.
    3. 60 crit is utterly useless, and anyone who goes for that socket should be ashamed. I also used the wrong gem. It should have been a 360 mastery gem. Which in the grand scheme of things might have pushed it to be much more equal.
    4. I also wasn't looking for a specific exact result for every little damn thing. I think you're just mad that the dagger will not be BIS.

    I am not here to do everything for you. If you want a BIS list then go do it yourself.

    Edit: Sorry, I should be more clear. This is napkin math, on a single item, from a single slot, in your single characters sheet. Not the entire set, not 4pc+off pieces, nor is it your guilds gear put together. It is just the item itself. If you want to know exactly what the dps is of the item then you go sim it. I personally don't care enough about 60 dps to sim out an entire set to find reforge plots and stat weights. If you do then go for it, but honestly you don't live up to your name.
    Last edited by Haizer; 2012-11-21 at 01:36 PM.

  18. #38
    Haizer, are you perhaps using old stat weights? Because the ones I found in the BiS profile on SimulationCraft are slightly different. Also keep in mind that stat weights will change in 5.1 (and SimulationCraft has a profile for that as well already).

    I'm not saying you should take my word for it lol, but here are my numbers at least. And I actually went for the socket bonus on the dagger (hehe I should be ashamed of myself), simply because it yields better numbers with the current stat weights.

    ---

    5.0.5
    Int - 4.90
    SP - 3.97
    Haste - 2.21
    Mastery - 2.75
    Crit - 1.98
    Hit - 2.48

    Loshan (5.0.5): (592 * 4.90) + (240 * 1.98) + (160 * 2.75) + (385 * 2.21) + (7907 * 3.97) + (500 * 4.90) = 38507.64 DPS
    Regail (5.0.5): (552 * 4.90) + (197 * 1.98) + (412 * 2.75) + (132 * 2.21) + (8441 * 3.97) + (320 * 2.48) + (60 + 1.98) = 38942.72 DPS

    Difference:
    435 DPS in favour of DAGGER

    ---

    5.1
    Int - 4.96
    SP - 3.98
    Haste - 2.36
    Mastery - 2.82
    Crit - 2.04
    Hit - 2.49

    Loshan (5.1 - 550 Gem): (592 * 4.96) + (240 * 2.04) + (160 * 2.82) + (385 * 2.36) + (7907 * 3.98) + (550 * 4.96) = 38983.58 DPS
    Loshan (5.1 - Prismatic Socket): (592 * 4.96) + (240 * 2.04) + (160 * 2.82) + (385 * 2.36) + (7907 * 3.98) + (500 * 4.96) + (320 * 2.82) = 39637.98 DPS
    Regail (5.1): (552 * 4.96) + (197 * 2.04) + (412 * 2.82) + (132 * 2.36) + (8441 * 3.98) + (320 * 2.49) + (60 + 2.04) = 39127.54 DPS

    Difference:
    With 550 Gem: 144 DPS in favour of DAGGER
    With Prismatic Socket: 510 DPS in favour of SWORD

    ---

    So my conclusion from before stands. During the current patch, the dagger will always be better, by some margin. Once 5.1 hits, the dagger will STILL be better IF you get a +550 Int gem instead of the +500 one. However the sword will get a significant improvement if we get a Prismatic Socket instead of the +550 Int gem.

    Now this is just comparing the 2 directly of course, and as you can see, they are still pretty damn close. ^^

    At least we agree the difference is minimal, hehe. I will probably go for whichever one looks better as well.
    Last edited by Iskald; 2012-11-21 at 01:37 PM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Haizer View Post
    1. I don't think you understand english. The. DPS. of. a. single. item. Uno. Ichi.
    2. I want to see your math since mine is so incomplete. Also I assumed nothing.
    3. 60 crit is utterly useless, and anyone who goes for that socket should be ashamed. I also used the wrong gem. It should have been a 360 mastery gem. Which in the grand scheme of things might have pushed it to be much more equal.
    4. I also wasn't looking for a specific exact result for every little damn thing. I think you're just mad that the dagger will not be BIS.

    I am not here to do everything for you. If you want a BIS list then go do it yourself.
    You see I just wanted to help you. I never said that the dagger is BiS after 5.1 only that your math proves nothing. And no the correct socket would be 320 Hit which would give you the socket bonus and free up a mastery reforge on the rest of the gear.
    And it seems that you don't understand. You can't use scale values in the way you did. If you want the dps difference for one item as you are so adamant about sim both profiles subtract the result and there you have it.
    If you write:
    Right now before 5.1 the dagger and oh is BIS, but once 5.1 hits whether it be 550 int or a prismatic(if either come) then the sword and oh will be BIS.
    This is an assumption as you offered no good proof for it.
    Also the BiS list used for simcraft atm was created by me during the beta; so I already created my own.
    Also just to clarify: I am not sure which item will be better once 5.1 hits as I have not recalculated everything. And I don't really care which one. To me it seems that you are hung up about the sword. If you want the style you can still take it regardless if it's BiS or not, so there should be no problem for you. It's just that your argumentation was lacking. Also gear plays together. If you change 1 item it can have a huge impact on your reforge alone. So you also must look at the whole set. (gemming can also change if you need to gem for a certain threshold for example)

    Edit:
    Put together both profiles for a quick comparison (as such no reforge plot done, there may still be improvement possible)
    Dagger sims 165 DPS better than the sword with a 550 Int gem using the affliction priority list for a patchwerk fight against one enemy

    Edit2: Once again: No item is single as you alway have to look at the whole set. The game uses all of your items not just your weapon. One item change can have impact on every reforge on your other items.
    About the name: I think staying cool instead of getting angry through this whole discussion is cool enough for me
    Last edited by realCool; 2012-11-21 at 01:50 PM.

  20. #40
    Well yeah, realCool, I did say that my numbers at least were comparing the 2 items directly. I put them up against eachother with no regards to anything else, heh. I understand that things will be slightly different once you compare an entire profile.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •