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  1. #181
    Elemental Lord Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Non-randomized sample is non-randomized. The progression stats show great dropoff in interest. The people who like the more difficult raiding are a tiny minority of the player population, judging by how many of them actually do it.
    Can you then get me your own statistics of how many apparently raided from Vanilla to Cata then? If you actually can I'll take your word for it. All you're going off are claimed statistics.

    Not only that, but haven't a minority also always raided, and the LFR system brought more people into some form of raiding?

    And, if that's the case, don't MORE people raid now?
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  2. #182
    The Patient Paarthurnax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    /cracks knuckles

    First off - the begining of the death of 25 man raiding. Being one of the only 25 man guilds since vanilla on our server (even survived after 40) really murdered us for trying to recruit people.

    Secondly - I LOATHED the heroic dungeons... they were way too long and slow moving. I FULLY admit this is because I had an action-packed year of Wrath-LFD awesomeness. I fully admit that Wrath completely changed my standards of the game that I played in Vanilla/BC. Wrath LFD taught me that you don't need to slam a car door on your head for an hour to have fun.

    The zone stories were VERY lame... and the one zone I was looking forward to was Uldum - After experiencing Storm Peaks, I couldn't imagine how an Egyptian Storm Peaks would be like... I never thought they'd turn 90% of the zone into nothing but a Raiders of the Lost Ark lampoon. >_<

    After that, it was an absolute LACK of quality content. I left for a year and only came back for 4.3 when I heard they brought back the dungeons to Wrath-style play. First off... they didn't. They instead introduced 3 dungeons at Wrath-difficulty that were a) not dungeons, just funky events - two in Dragonblight! >_< and b) were locked into their own separate queue, so you burnt out of them INSANELY quickly! I didn't burn out from Wrath-LFD dungeons because I had 15+ dungeons in my random queue. I could go theoretically 5 days at 3 dungeons per-day and not see the same dungeon twice in wrath.

    Deathwing was a stupid joke... especially if you were a fan of him in the books like me. The way he's in the books vs the way he was in the game was 250% different and contradicted many of his key characteristics. The fact he is a willing pawn of an Old God goes completely against the point of his character.
    In the books, he was a paranoid mastermind manipulator hatching complicated schemes. In the game, he's a brainless Godzilla flying around who's cunning masterplan was to fly around and burn random patches of land.

    In Wrath - I got to see everything of Arthas. Why he became who he was... his corruption... see him grant powers, betray allies, and hatch a plan that ultimately involved me. Deathwing I saw jack squat of. No origins... next to NOTHING that told me of what his character was about at all.

    Wrath also had another thing going for it... a unified theme for the expansion. Nordic mixed with Titan/Roman styles. Cataclysm was an insane bunch of unconnected zones that seemed very disjointed with no real feeling of being in one place or overall theme.

    And don't get me started on the story... Thrall suddenly getting Super Shaman Powers inexplicably overnight. Malfurion Stormrage waking up and going totally neutral despite his people getting murdered in Ashenvale, and DON'T get me started on the Alli/Horde design imabalances. Even Blizz admitted they lacked on the Ali side in order to get the game out... particularly with the Worgen.

    Seriously, I could go on and on... I really REALLY could not understand how they could follow up something as cohesive and epic as Wrath with something as abysmal on almost ALL fronts as Cataclysm. It broke more than the world... it broke the game.
    ^^ This. On the raiding front, while T11 was by far the best tier of the expansion in terms of bosses and quality it was way to hard for how little other content was available to people. Then Firelands hit and while it was ok it was too short and Heroic Rag was WAY to hard far to long, most guilds burnt out on him. Then Dragon Soul was overall pretty damn bad, with the hardest fight being Spine (aka one of the worst fights ever conceived) and the final fight being a 4 platform joke where you did the same thing 4 times only slightly harder each time...yawn.

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  3. #183
    From a casual PvE player and hard core PvP player my problems were...

    1) Heroics were too dificult for pug groups. I don't think I cleared any heroics in Cata. I just wanted to do some for fun. I had no real interest in the gear. It would have been nice to clear just a few...
    2) Talent tress were terrible. Trees were more cookie cutter than ever. Everyone had the exact same set up. Although idk if it is much better now.
    3) 25 man heroic items in PvP. Don't have time to raid 10+ hours a week? To bad now you lose at pvp too. (tho it was in wotlk it wasn't as bad)
    4) God status of Rogues in PvP. Insane lock down, insane damage, compeletly self healing.

  4. #184
    Elemental Lord Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highmoon7 View Post
    From a casual PvE player and hard core PvP player my problems were...

    1) Heroics were too dificult for pug groups. I don't think I cleared any heroics in Cata. I just wanted to do some for fun. I had no real interest in the gear. It would have been nice to clear just a few...
    2) Talent tress were terrible. Trees were more cookie cutter than ever. Everyone had the exact same set up. Although idk if it is much better now.
    3) 25 man heroic items in PvP. Don't have time to raid 10+ hours a week? To bad now you lose at pvp too. (tho it was in wotlk it wasn't as bad)
    4) God status of Rogues in PvP. Insane lock down, insane damage, compeletly self healing.
    Number 4 describes Warriors in PVP currently.. @_@.
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  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    Can you then get me your own statistics of how many apparently raided from Vanilla to Cata then? If you actually can I'll take your word for it. All you're going off are claimed statistics.

    Not only that, but haven't a minority also always raided, and the LFR system brought more people into some form of raiding?

    And, if that's the case, don't MORE people raid now?
    I'm sure few people raided in Vanilla and BC. I'd also consider the game moving back to that model to be unacceptable.

    You may be asking: why did they even play the game then, if it was so bad? Because newbies experience their first flush of MMO addiction will put up with an awful lot that isn't ideal. But that wears off and they become more discriminating with time. They're not becoming tired of the game, they're becoming less blind to its failings.

    As for LFR: I had planned to do that in MoP, but my experiences with it are that the randomized groups introduce so many negatives that it's not a tolerable end game experience. I would much rather have seen two levels of difficulty in manually formed raids; one Wrath level, one closer to current MoP normal modes. As for current MoP heroic modes... no need to include that, since only a very small number of people care.
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  6. #186
    Elemental Lord Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I'm sure few people raided in Vanilla and BC. I'd also consider the game moving back to that model to be unacceptable.

    You may be asking: why did they even play the game then, if it was so bad? Because newbies experience their first flush of MMO addiction will put up with an awful lot that isn't ideal. But that wears off and they become more discriminating with time. They're not becoming tired of the game, they're becoming less blind to its failings.

    As for LFR: I had planned to do that in MoP, but my experiences with it are that the randomized groups introduce so many negatives that it's not a tolerable end game experience. I would much rather have seen two levels of difficulty in manually formed raids; one Wrath level, one closer to current MoP normal modes. As for current MoP heroic modes... no need to include that, since only a very small number of people care.
    When did you even do LFR? In Cata?

    It's completely different in Mists. I find it rather enjoyable and I HATED Dragn Soul LFR.

    And the game isn't moving back to that model..at all.

    Blizzard even said this themselves: With LFR now introduced, they can construct Normal and Heroic Modes for Raids much easier in difficulty.

    LFR is easy for people simply looking to see the content and feel great from getting geared, which, surprisingly, a LOT of people do LFR just for that purpose and then don't raid Normal Mode or Heroic Mode.

    Normal Mode is 2 times as difficult I'd honestly say, and from there stems a great sense of accomplishment and even better gear. It was like this Ulduar and ICC. Not a lot of people were even able to get past Putricide, not to mention Lanathel or Sindragosa, or even down the Lich King.

    Nothing has changed. Cata introduced VERY difficult and unforgiving Raids but, I personally enjoyed them.

    Mists, from what 80%+ of the people I've seen say, they love the raids.

    They're balanced.

    They're fun.

    They're challenging.

    That's what raids are supposed to be.

    And if you think that's not what a raid should be, when for the masses are enjoying it but you specifically aren't, then I dunno how to reason with you.
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  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    So, 2 months into Mists. People love it, like it, dislike it, or even hate it.

    Regardless of your opinions, I have a question not about Mists..

    More-so about Cata.

    I keep continuing to see people say Mists was better than Cata. The reason Mists is better than Cata for me, personally, is because the story telling is much better together, and the raids aren't as unforgiving as they were in Cata at launch.

    But, can you guys tell me why Cata was so bad?

    We had what, 9 months of Dragon Soul? Part of me feels like so many of you dislike Cata so much because we had a 9 month curb with no new content in Dragonblight against only 8 bosses. But if that's where your hate stems from, was Cata seriously that horrible?

    I liked the concept of the first tier of the Cata raids, and I thought the story and boss fights were fun. Even the lay-outs for the zones were gorgeous. I just didn't like how much of a difficulty curb they really threw us at launch.

    ZG and ZA redos, at the beckoning of the community after seeing Deadmines and I can't even remember the name of the second, which sucks .

    They offered gear to people who couldn't still down the Tier content because they didn't want to simply be like, "Hey, content's too hard, we'll give them better gear to help them overcome this challenge." And it helped, at least for my guild.

    Next came Firelands, which I honestly loved. Sure, we got sick of it against because of half a year with no new content, but it was still a very well constructed raid.

    And once more we're back at Dragon Soul, whose massive timespan without content is what seemed to ruin the game for so many.

    But my question after all this reasoning and laying out my opinion is the following:

    Was Cata actually and legitimately that bad?

    They redid the entire world, they still released 5 new zones, one with new Underwater Mechanics, along with 3 raids, 9 (?) new Heroics, along with the redone 2 Old Dungeons, 31 point revised talent system, and 2 new playable races, not to mention new class combinations.

    I bet some of you would still be griping about being Tauren Druids if you couldn't be Trolls :x.

    But, yeah, that's my question, I'm curious what you guys think given all this.

    Thanks!
    well i did not like the portal system btw the zones and the ulduar indiana jones parody. The pvp was unbalanced and stupid most of the time for my class (warrior)

    i did not enjoy being forced to cap valor on my alts by only playing the troll dungeons

    i did not enjoy feeling forced to raid in order to join any sort of pugs for first raid tier and firelands

    i did not enjoy the lack of content at max level and only sitting in a city

    i did not enjoy thrall mary sue mode

    i did enjoy lvling alts and reamped zones

    i did not enjoy the huge wait time for new content or the social lockout and increase in elitist douchbaggery

    i did not enjoy hearing abyssal maw and war of the ancients raid ideas not geting implented becouse they were rushing for mop and theramore was horrible.

    summary: cata was the worst expansion becouse it lacked things to do it did not follow its plans of content having to see a few new zones by portal jumping felt dull the pvp was unbalanced and filled with stupid jerks that thought they were skilled and when they losed that other dude was (lucky) The pve raids was awesome but yet again ruined by dramaqueen and people that cant bother looking up tactics ever...... Pugs demanded achievement for every raid and rated bg wanted like 1800 rbg rating after first two weeks this ment no pug raids for alt chars or even your main unless you forced your way trough a guild and it left you with nothing to do after capping valor/conquest. Its so bad that i could go on forever and yea mop have some pvp issues but alot more content and something for every type of player just that makes it better then whole of cata and its lame Marysue thrall storyline.

    also want to add since vanilla cataclysm was the first and still only expansion that made me consider quiting wow and taking month long breaks from the game.
    Last edited by nemerus; 2012-11-20 at 05:53 PM.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    When did you even do LFR? In Cata?
    I have only done LFR in MoP. The level of griefing and general failure, I found intolerable. It ruined LFR for me; even if I could force myself to plow through it, it wouldn't be providing something that could be a target of end game fun, and therefore be a thing that could motivate me to work toward. I would rather have run with an entirely manually formed group on the easy content, but getting 25 people to queue for LFR just wasn't in the cards.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  9. #189
    Mechagnome ryotte's Avatar
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    I'm not a major Cata hater, I stayed subbed the whole time and played pretty regularly, but my beef is that we got 3 tough, fun raids out of the box...and then we only got 2 more raids the entire expansion and DS was much easier and less inspiring than any other raid I've done (although I did enjoy FL, 2-3 more like that and I wouldn't bitch). My raid group is casual, and we did not expect to one-shot the first three bosses of the final freaking raid and get the fourth down the same night. A few people didn't show up again after that night, declared themselves on a break. It was hard to keep raiders because people weren't excited about the raid. That's why it blew for me: my group struggled to down DW not because the content was too hard but because not enough people were interested in raiding to get a group together much of the time. THAT sucks.

    Also...wtb flying in Silvermoon/Ghostlands.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Yes, cata was legitimately that bad. I would say it was slightly worse than wrath in terms of the raids. For questing cata was certainly better but the areas were inconveniently spread out which felt odd. Worgen starting area feels so horribly incomplete, female worgen are plain awful. I don't pvp so screw all that but pvp has declined with all this bullshit CC that keeps getting added(remove the insane amount of CC and pvp might be appealing...staring at your screen until you die just doesn't hold much interest). ZA and ZG were some of the worst decisions I've seen them make, getting stuck with people who didn't raid ZA during TBC while running the revamped version was just a nightmare(I liked ZA back in TBC, I now hate it after the revamp). The 3 dungeons added with dragon soul just pissed me off because 2/3 of them were simply bleak(I don't ever want an instance to put me in dragonblight again, I hated the zone during wrath and I hate it still). Underwater zone is a nightmare to navigate, if they had fixed that so quests inside caves actually directed you to the cave entrance I think I might've enjoyed it instead of getting lost when trying to figure out where the hell the entrance was.

    All in all I think MoP>TBC>Wrath>Cata, not listing classic because I didn't play then so I don't have any experience to to base an opinion on.
    I don't like Dragonblight much either, but a few dungeons with it is a LOT better than being stuck in Icecrown 90% of WOTLK.

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  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    Was Cata actually and legitimately that bad?
    It was the expansion i stopped playing on but thats not to say it was "bad" it was just more of the same and something i could not be arsed doing again, it's bad enough leveling alts but when you get that feeling leveling your main it was enough to make me quit

  12. #192
    Mechagnome Draqson's Avatar
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    I didnt hate Cataclysm, I just got tired of the whole game-concept over the years...
    but that already started in Wotlk... Cataclysm did nothing in particular that made me feel more unsatisfied...

    just burned out... I actually liked Cataclysm for its short time from 80-85... never brought more alts to maxlvl than in that expansion...
    while im already about to take a break from MoP til 5.2 (with 1 class being maxlvl)

    Its funny to see how much ambition I was showing when MoP came out... thought about getting SOOO many classes to maxlvl... one after another... but then my warlock took sooooo long... that im just intimidated by the amount of effort I have to bring (doing the same quests in the same areas twice - IS NOT FUN)

  13. #193
    I like to play games for the story, and I have too many complaints with the writing of Cataclysm to post without it being a wall of text. Some glittering examples:
    --Gallywix stays leader of the Bilgewater Cartel. Because Thrall's short-term memory is amazing.
    --Worgen don't get to see the end of their own story, the Forsaken do.
    --Neptulon and the Kraken: Revenge of the Retcon
    --The slew of joke quests (I've got my eye on you, Uldum)
    --Blizzard seems to have forgotten that Draenei exist once again.

    ...and the crowning achievement of being invited to Thrall's 4-step pity party. Legitimate concerns are raised about his character and his decisions, but your only role is to tell him that nothing was his fault and everything will be alright. And the wedding party was poorly catered.

    The many storylines through Cata seemed forced and grate against each other, almost as if each zone design and re-design had independent teams working on them that never shared details with each other. The writing was just plain sloppy. Fortunately though, MoP seems to be recovering from the fanfic quality of writing that Cata clung to.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    SNIP...

    Was Cata actually and legitimately that bad?

    SNIP...

    Thanks!
    Yes, cataclysm was that bad. It alone caused a great many players to stop being players.

    Cataclysm was the reason I stopped playing WOW. MoP is the reason I didn't come back.

  15. #195
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Most of Cata was not bad to me, but I don't feel there was enough end-game content, which made it boring. It was the first time since I purchased this game that I ever logged in and felt like I had nothing to do but sit around in town and chat. Worse than that, many of my friends felt the same way and cancelled their subscriptions, which aggravated the problem.

    The emphasis for the expansion seemed to be on new features rather than new content. On one hand, many of the new things it brought us were great (guild leveling, old world flying, transmog, LFR, reforging, etc, etc, etc) but on the other hand most of these new features do not give us stuff to do. Level 85 content was fairly brief and what we did get (like MF daily hub) was really delayed. We also had some big disappointments with a War of the Ancients and Abyssal Maw raids being scrapped, which I know a lot of people were looking forward to.

    I'm a raider, so the raid content is big factor in my enjoyability level. Tier11 was fine, but I wasn't super impressed with any of the fights. I thought Firelands was cool, but it should have been paired with a sister raid IMO.

    Dragonsoul was a major disappointment, and this had nothing to do with its duration (ICC was out far longer and it still ranks as one of my top five raids) but rather the fact that it just felt weak overall. Most of my raid group disliked it from the start. It was short, most of the fights were dull, the environment/zone design drab and reused, most of the bosses had no storyline connection, the cut scenes were obnoxious and made the instance feel fragmented, the lack of trash in the latter wing was reminiscent of TOC, and finally the final boss fight of the whole expansion -- something that I expect to be really epic -- was not only too easy, but was super boring (same thing, repeat on a bunch of platforms). And then Thrall steals the show and we're just irrelevant tools in someone else's story. I'm not a lore junky, but it's nice to feel like you actually impacted the world rather than just being a lackey for the real hero. Dragonsoul is the one part of the expansion I will say was outright poor quality.

    There were some missteps with the expansion, as well, like the overuse of portals making the world feeling small or the way the new zones being scattered about the old world removed that cool sense of exploration you get when you step into a whole new continent, which we got in Wrath and BC.

    Mostly, I can't really point to any single issue but all of these were contributing factors to an overall feeling of "meh."

    tl;dr - not bad, just lacking.
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  16. #196
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Tentative.

    5.2 will be the deciding factor because then we'll have a clear view of Blizz's design philosophy. Will they make more 5-mans or only scenarios? Will we perhaps see Azshara's Crater? Large or small raids?
    "You should only install Warlords on your master hard drive. They will never be slaves." - @CM_Lore


  17. #197
    Opening all the old world zones, flying in EK and Kalim and closing some old storylines were what I liked best about Cata...loved the Fandral was poisoning the tree with that soil from Ungoro. I wonder how many stacks I contributed to that. lol.

  18. #198
    Cata launch content was great, IMO, everything from the new races to new vanilla world to the raids, seemed pretty solid. I thought FL was good but that was the only quality content we got after Cata launch up until Mists. I still don't understand where all their time and resources went for 4.3, a couple fights were kind of neat but for the most part...I don't know. 4.1 was the only mini-patch we got and it was rather underwhelming. I play to raid and I still like it, I'm overall quite pleased with what Blizzard put out in t14 and I just don't understand why Blizz either hits or misses terribly with raid patches.

    TL;DR: Cata blew chunks because of the weak content patches or lack therof, not because of the initial launch content. Can't really judge MoP yet because we haven't had a single content patch go live yet and we have roughly 2 years before we get a new expansion anyways.
    Last edited by PBitt; 2012-11-20 at 09:44 PM.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by elfox View Post
    it's funny. 2 months ago we had people yelling out at how bad cata was. Now we have people questioning if it really was bad. In another 2 months, people will think back on cata and call it "glory-days" jsut like they did with wotlk. The true nature of nostalgia

    Incorrect. From patch 4.1 and onward, I knew Cataclysm wasn't delivering what it promised to deliver, and I will ALWAYS feel this way. The storyline was weak and, again, Deathwing was the saddest excuse for a villain I have ever seen. Even though WotLK was EASY, the storyline made you feel like when you finally got to kill Arthas it was something HUGE. When we finally got to kill Deathwing it felt hollow, boring and anti-climatic. Mostly because no one cared at that point. Deathwing's developement literally did not exist. Had they done more to make him more of a threat and someone we loved to hate and wanted to kill, the expansion might have gone better.

    And Dragon Soul was the saddest end-game raid dungeon I have ever seen in this game. I would rather do ToC10/25 than DS again.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 08:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindrasa View Post
    I never realized how much i liked cata until mists hit, i always veiwed cata as an "OK expansion" but it was too hard for me at the begining (Was a total noob), i didn't have to grind so much, i just ran dungeons when i felt like it, maybe did a few raids, but cata gave me time to explore all the old content.

    Cata brought quite alot that i liked, such as transmog, new darkmoon faire, a reason to run old content, mists of pandaria brought very little of it, i recently quit WoW due to mists... far too many daylies for rewards that should not have been attatched to them, and then 5.1 was announced and 100 more daylies are heading our way, it was just too much for me: so i quit.

    I hope blizzard learn their lesson with the next expansion and don't add so much grinding, but for now WoW isn't the game for me and i actually MISS cata, i miss the 9 months of dragon soul i miss being fairly good geared on my warlock only to loose all my gear to quest green in a few hours...
    Let me take a guess here. You started playing WoW in Cataclysm.
    Last edited by Servasus; 2012-11-21 at 03:46 AM.

  20. #200
    I think Cata was awesome for the first half of it.

    I loved that the dungeons were harder. I like the way the zones were placed, how old world was revamped and stuff was happening on Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms. I liked the way they removed a lot of "increases your crit by 1%/2%/3%" talents and made talents more "interesting". It wasn't a perfect system, but it was better, and I liked it when it came out.

    It was preeetty much the DS/HoT patch that ruined everything for me and probably everyone else.

    I join the new 5mans expecting to wipe and it to be hard and stuff. Nope. New 5 mans were as easy as you gotta be kidding me.

    So, what we had for 9 months was one raid, and three easy as shit dungeons. Yeah, three, because they kept ZG/ZA and all the old five mans separate from the HoT dungeons, so you had three dungeons to run each week 7 times for your VP. Even if you wanted to do the older dungeons, no one queued for them expect new 85s, alts and stuff, and since some of them lasted 45 minutes, it was just a waste of time vs profit and effort. If you were one of the people leveling alts, you got to wipe on the lowest level content dungeons for blue gear with idiots until your ilvl got high enough to play with people who wouldn't waste your time. If you were especially unlucky, you made the cut for ZA/ZG but not HoT and either got more blue gear in the first dungeons or waited in queue forever only to wipe a million times before deciding to buy gear on the AH or ilvl cheat.

    In WotLK, the first tier of heroics was still where you went for your dailies. There were weeklies for old tier raid bosses. Lots of server side pugs and revisiting of old raids constantly. That didn't happen at all in Cata. For the entire length of time it takes for a human to create another human, we had one raid and three dungeons. That was it.

    That kind of torture can take an otherwise decent expansion and make everyone hate it. Hate it, forever and ever.

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