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  1. #461
    And EU deliver once again!
    Gz Paragon and Method!

  2. #462
    Moderator Fnx-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nehunter View Post
    Gratz to Paragon for world first 10man!
    Gratz to Method for world first 25man!

    Looks like it was ok to expect a kill this lockout judging only by the fact that Sha drops only 509 gear.

    Next race:
    Protectors Elite
    And 1 shot Sha ?
    Next "race" is next tier and not before. One shot sha isn't really any major achievement and something that will happen next week already. Protectors elite will 99.9% be done by a guild who didn't take part in the Sha race, simply cause the other guilds cba so short after progress is over. Paragon could maybe do it, but I don't really see anybody else go for it in the upcoming week.

    Envy - Kazzak EU (www.envy.si)
    World 4 in SoO (25MAN)
    MY DK

  3. #463
    @Fnx-
    Thank you for the response.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by SilentStocket View Post
    So the nerfs were that major or you just figured it out?
    What was the nerf?

  5. #465
    The boss was hotfixed (read: nerfed) this night so it wasn't really unexpected to see a kill.

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypasonic View Post
    What was the nerf?
    Lappe told something about add spawn rate and add damage nerfs.

  7. #467
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    I just find it amusing how now that Paragon are raiding 10 man, people feel the need to split the races in two separate world firsts. Before t14 it was just world first and that's that, no one said a word about two different races.
    There weren't any competetive world's first 10man guilds before Paragon downsized.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    There weren't any competetive world's first 10man guilds before Paragon downsized.
    This. I can almost assuredly say Paragon raids at least twice as much as the next highest ranked 10-man guild on a weekly basis.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakurako View Post
    And people still claim 10man is harder
    It's people like this that make "the argument" an argument.

    What if Method would've killed it first? It would've been "Ha! Method is so much better than Paragon"

    But because Paragon did it first, it's "Pffffbfbfbbfbff. 10 man lol."

    Get over yourself.
    Last edited by Shaley; 2012-11-25 at 05:39 PM.

  10. #470
    There is no other 10m guild in the world that is anywhere near competitive for world firsts. That alone is a testament that Paragon have as players (as much "skill" an online game can take). 10m never got as much attention until Paragon downsized because of recruitment/RL issues. However, they themselves have said that 25man is where the REAL race is and where the REAL progression is. So while much congratulations are in order for them killing the boss, Method are the actual world first winners.

    I don't know why people are still debating this when even Paragon players have conceded that 25m is battleground. I like watching the race and I like both guilds (mainly because they use lots of hunters), but the reality is that 25m is where the recognition is.

  11. #471
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    I think it's a testament to 10 man difficulty that in order to be "competitive" with 25 mans they *have to* funnel gear, yet most 10 mans de facto have less people to funnel gear with in the form of 25 mans. I acknowledge the top 25s funnel gear, but I think it's easier to be competitive as a 25 without funneling than it is if you're a 10 man.

    A 10 man who does one lockout a week with 10 man loot is never going to be competitive with 25 man doing the same on 25, even if they're the best 10 players in the world. End of story. It's not a testament to the difficulty of the encounters, but to the RNG of the drops. Do you realize that on 10 man, you get, on bosses which drop a token, only other one piece of loot? If I didn't have charms, getting the 3 drops I need off Lei Shi besides the token would be damn near impossible.

    IDK, if 25 mans can claim the organizational and planning capacities make 25s "harder" surely 10s should be able to point out the ridiculous nature of 10 man loot.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I think it's a testament to 10 man difficulty that in order to be "competitive" with 25 mans they *have to* funnel gear, yet most 10 mans de facto have less people to funnel gear with in the form of 25 mans. I acknowledge the top 25s funnel gear, but I think it's easier to be competitive as a 25 without funneling than it is if you're a 10 man.

    A 10 man who does one lockout a week with 10 man loot is never going to be competitive with 25 man doing the same on 25, even if they're the best 10 players in the world. End of story. It's not a testament to the difficulty of the encounters, but to the RNG of the drops. Do you realize that on 10 man, you get, on bosses which drop a token, only other one piece of loot? If I didn't have charms, getting the 3 drops I need off Lei Shi besides the token would be damn near impossible.

    IDK, if 25 mans can claim the organizational and planning capacities make 25s "harder" surely 10s should be able to point out the ridiculous nature of 10 man loot.
    If you're a 10m guild that is concerned about World Firsts and the bleeding edge of progression (like Paragon) then you have already devised ways to funnel gear. People need to quit acting like 10m guilds are at a disadvantage with gear and personnel just because they are a 10m guild. If you're a guild that is that competitive then you have alts ready to swap in, extra people on the roster, AND people who can fill in for a 25m gear funnel run. There is a 10m guild called Topped Off on my server that is World 90 or so and they have 30+ raiders on the roster so that they can class stack and/or funnel gear.

    Every raider in Blood Legion has 4-5 alts that they run multiple heroic 25m runs with so that they can class stack and gear mains/alts in different runs and such. Bleeding edge progression guilds maximize runs and utilize personnel to increase their gear output. For the love of goodness please STOP pity painting 10m guilds in a light that makes it seems as if they are handicapped......because they aren't. Paragon knows how to maximize gear and use time efficiently, if other 10m guilds don't or won't do that then they are obviously aren't concerned with progression race. End of story (is that supposed to drive your point home or something? lol).

  13. #473
    Does anyone know how BL and the others are doing on Sha now? Seems a while since paragon and method downed him, would love to see the videos but alas...they won't release them before a few more guilds down him atleast

  14. #474
    The Patient Dranged's Avatar
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    Skill wise, those 10 (or however many they are) main raiders in Paragon are still as good as they were back when they did 25m - among the best players in the world. I don't think anyone doubts that? They are just fewer in the core nowadays, which is why they do 10m progress raids.

    There are however a few things that give them an edge in the competition, "the race". An advantage that other guilds don't have.

    People say that because Paragon are sooo far ahead in the 10m race they are just all that much better than everyone else. In the 25m scene at least there is competition. Envy, Method, BL, Vodka and to a certain degree also that russian guild along with some asian ones could be considered contenders, while in 10m Paragon are completely alone at the top. I don't have any real evidence to back it up since I am too lazy to look through wowprogress, but when Paragon killed Empress HC I think the 2nd best 10m guild was still stuck on 1 or 2HC in HoF. Massive difference.

    And why is this? Since "25m raiding is dying QQQ" and more and more guilds downsize to 10m shouldn't it be the opposite? The 10m scene should be storming forward progress-wise, leaving all the 25m dinosaurs far behind. But that's not the case. The reason is, as you all know, that the top players don't want to touch the 10m scene since they find it inferior in status and prestige. If a top 25m guild dies (FtH, Ensidia) those players will most likely seek out another 25m guild, and not 10m.

    So while the overall trend in wow is that 25m are succumbing to 10m, this is not the case at the very top of hardcore raiding. That's why Paragon is so alone now.

    Another huge reason for Paragon's current supremacy in the 10m bracket is how they gear up. They may no longer have 25 players of the same skill they had in previous expansions, but they sure as hell have more than the 10 that do progress. They have enough members to do 25m full HC clears to get more drops for their 10 main raiders. These are resources that no other 10m guild can even dream of. This gives Paragon a huge advantage, not only over other 10m guilds IMVHO, but also over other competing 25m guilds since bosses in 10m should be designed for players who have received gear from 10m raiding. 25m guilds can't exactly swith to do 60-man raids to farm gear faster for the 25 ppl doing progress.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Dranged View Post
    Skill wise, those 10 (or however many they are) main raiders in Paragon are still as good as they were back when they did 25m - among the best players in the world. I don't think anyone doubts that? They are just fewer in the core nowadays, which is why they do 10m progress raids.

    There are however a few things that give them an edge in the competition, "the race". An advantage that other guilds don't have.

    People say that because Paragon are sooo far ahead in the 10m race they are just all that much better than everyone else. In the 25m scene at least there is competition. Envy, Method, BL, Vodka and to a certain degree also that russian guild along with some asian ones could be considered contenders, while in 10m Paragon are completely alone at the top. I don't have any real evidence to back it up since I am too lazy to look through wowprogress, but when Paragon killed Empress HC I think the 2nd best 10m guild was still stuck on 1 or 2HC in HoF. Massive difference.

    And why is this? Since "25m raiding is dying QQQ" and more and more guilds downsize to 10m shouldn't it be the opposite? The 10m scene should be storming forward progress-wise, leaving all the 25m dinosaurs far behind. But that's not the case. The reason is, as you all know, that the top players don't want to touch the 10m scene since they find it inferior in status and prestige. If a top 25m guild dies (FtH, Ensidia) those players will most likely seek out another 25m guild, and not 10m.

    So while the overall trend in wow is that 25m are succumbing to 10m, this is not the case at the very top of hardcore raiding. That's why Paragon is so alone now.

    Another huge reason for Paragon's current supremacy in the 10m bracket is how they gear up. They may no longer have 25 players of the same skill they had in previous expansions, but they sure as hell have more than the 10 that do progress. They have enough members to do 25m full HC clears to get more drops for their 10 main raiders. These are resources that no other 10m guild can even dream of. This gives Paragon a huge advantage, not only over other 10m guilds IMVHO, but also over other competing 25m guilds since bosses in 10m should be designed for players who have received gear from 10m raiding. 25m guilds can't exactly swith to do 60-man raids to farm gear faster for the 25 ppl doing progress.
    Nice post, people should read this.

  16. #476
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    Nice post, people should read this.
    I've read it, pity the statistics don't support it like at all; as well his math is pretty poor towards the end there,
    when some of the competing 25m guilds (as in "competing for top ranks", not vs 10) have been known to do as many as 5x 25m clears per reset using alts.

    These are the relevant ilvls of the top3 10man guilds, you won't find such huge differences as being made out to be
    (especially if you subtract any gear from the WF kill)
    Last edited by Drii; 2012-11-26 at 04:20 PM.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Dranged View Post
    Another huge reason for Paragon's current supremacy in the 10m bracket is how they gear up. They may no longer have 25 players of the same skill they had in previous expansions, but they sure as hell have more than the 10 that do progress. They have enough members to do 25m full HC clears to get more drops for their 10 main raiders. These are resources that no other 10m guild can even dream of. This gives Paragon a huge advantage, not only over other 10m guilds IMVHO, but also over other competing 25m guilds since bosses in 10m should be designed for players who have received gear from 10m raiding. 25m guilds can't exactly swith to do 60-man raids to farm gear faster for the 25 ppl doing progress.
    Just to clear this up a bit. The main 10 man group of Paragon never got any other loot than 10 man heroic and 1 clear of 25 normal of each instance (first week when the normal modes were only open). During when only the normal modes were open Paragon did 10 man group (all alts of the 10 man main group) and 25 man normal clear that had all 10 mains of the current raid group and 15 helpers. Any other week was 10 man heroic clear only.

    You could do pretty much the same with just 10 people and do 2x 10 man clears during the normal weeks of each instance. 5 alts and 5 mains clear the instance twice and the mains get all the loot.

    This gear funneling is done in a much smaller scale than when we were doing ICC for example where we ran 3x 25 man groups while farming the normal modes.

    Another fun and probably quite surprising statistic. During the whole T11 progress there were something like 70 different characters directly involved in our own first kills. Not funneling loot but in the raid during a first kill of at least 1 boss.

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Dranged View Post
    Skill wise, those 10 (or however many they are) main raiders in Paragon are still as good as they were back when they did 25m - among the best players in the world. I don't think anyone doubts that? They are just fewer in the core nowadays, which is why they do 10m progress raids.

    There are however a few things that give them an edge in the competition, "the race". An advantage that other guilds don't have.

    People say that because Paragon are sooo far ahead in the 10m race they are just all that much better than everyone else. In the 25m scene at least there is competition. Envy, Method, BL, Vodka and to a certain degree also that russian guild along with some asian ones could be considered contenders, while in 10m Paragon are completely alone at the top. I don't have any real evidence to back it up since I am too lazy to look through wowprogress, but when Paragon killed Empress HC I think the 2nd best 10m guild was still stuck on 1 or 2HC in HoF. Massive difference.

    And why is this? Since "25m raiding is dying QQQ" and more and more guilds downsize to 10m shouldn't it be the opposite? The 10m scene should be storming forward progress-wise, leaving all the 25m dinosaurs far behind. But that's not the case. The reason is, as you all know, that the top players don't want to touch the 10m scene since they find it inferior in status and prestige. If a top 25m guild dies (FtH, Ensidia) those players will most likely seek out another 25m guild, and not 10m.

    So while the overall trend in wow is that 25m are succumbing to 10m, this is not the case at the very top of hardcore raiding. That's why Paragon is so alone now.

    Another huge reason for Paragon's current supremacy in the 10m bracket is how they gear up. They may no longer have 25 players of the same skill they had in previous expansions, but they sure as hell have more than the 10 that do progress. They have enough members to do 25m full HC clears to get more drops for their 10 main raiders. These are resources that no other 10m guild can even dream of. This gives Paragon a huge advantage, not only over other 10m guilds IMVHO, but also over other competing 25m guilds since bosses in 10m should be designed for players who have received gear from 10m raiding. 25m guilds can't exactly swith to do 60-man raids to farm gear faster for the 25 ppl doing progress.
    In 25m there is competition, and Paragon was king of the hill in that regard as well for quite awhile. Paragon is leagues ahead of any other 10m guild, that is evidenced by the progression ladder right now. And it still seems as if people want to make excuses for 10m guilds when it comes to gear. If your guild seriously wants to compete on the world stage in the progression race then you will find ways to funnel gear to your main raiders. Like I said in my previous post, the guild Topped Off on my server runs multiple runs (some of them heroic afaik) to get gear for their raiders, and they are not in the top 10 (world 90th or something like that). Blood Legion raiders have 4-5 alts a piece that they run multiple heroics runs of each instance with, so your "25m guilds can't switch to do 60-m raids" argument is kind of void in a sense.

    Bleeding edge guilds make the effort to get more gear than other guilds. This concept is pretty simple and people still don't seem to grasp it. Paragon isn't doing anything out of the ordinary to get more gear for their raiders, it's just that your average guild can't and/or won't go that extra step to secure more gear. That's just one more thing that separates other guilds from guilds like Paragon, Method, BL, etc. Again please STOP pity painting 10m guilds like they are at a gear disadvantage, they have PLENTY of ways to run multiple runs and farm/funnel gear. The BMAH is something that guilds like Paragon and BL lock up too. 10m is only getting this much shine because Paragon is spearheading that bracket. If they weren't no one would be talking about it.

  19. #479
    One of the things differentiating paragon from other 10 mans is the time paragon invests in raiding. While the other lets say top 10 10 man guilds all raid 7 days a week, paragon does the same, but most likely 3x more hours than others do. Also I think there are a few other 10 mans that almost raid as much as paragon does but they just don't play that well. The 1,5/2 ilvl paragon has more above other 10 mans doesn't change that much I think, 2 itemlevel overall don't make a worlds difference. So what is to say? Paragon is the best 10 man right now because of 3 main reasons.

    They raid much more than almost every other 10 man guild there is on a regular basis. Much more means: If another guild raids 40 hours a week, paragon raids 80+ (progress time).
    They have a better gear because of gear funneling. Especially in the beginning of Heart of Fear, the difference back then was really big, now it has gone back.
    They are just better players overall (and maybe have the superior setup for the raids which you can't overlook in a 10 man environment). Somehow I doubt it would've been that easy without 2 Paladins (Hand of Protection helps out a lot on many bossfights) 3 Druids (Heart of the wild Tranq + hots anyone?)

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