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  1. #1

    Mage's First Raid

    Heya,

    As a disclaimer - I've raided in the past... hell, I've raided a lot in the past. I've had 8/13 heroic bosses cleared with my own raid group back in the first Cata tier. However, I've stopped playing since then, and only came back last week. Needless to say, I'm assembling a raid group again, and I'm about to give the Vaults a try for the first time this Wednesday.

    My gear isn't all that peachy right now (I'd show you my armory but since I just transferred and race changed, it didn't update yet), sitting at a mere 14.4k spell power some ~12% crit, ~5% haste, ~19% mastery + hit cap. The large amount of mastery is due to the crafted PvP gear that I currently sport. Please note that this is completely unbuffed, no Intellect and no Molten Armor.

    What I am trying to figure out now are two things - my gear considered, would I benefit more from frost than fire? The general consensus that I am seeing is "frost beats fire at low gear", but that statement seems kind of fishy.

    Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, I'd love to get a double check on my actual approach to fire gameplay. For all its cooldown juggling complexity, it strikes me as a relatively simple approach once one gets the hang of it:

    - Evocate 9 seconds before the pull
    - Apply mage bomb
    - Start off with Pyroblast, then spam fireballs until Heating Up proc's
    - Turn Heating Up into a Pyroblast! via Inferno Blast
    - Pop all cooldowns, PoM & Alter Time
    - Pyro (Hot Streak)
    - Pyro (PoM)
    - If I have heating up and Inferno Blast ready, hit another Inferno Blast and Pyro
    - Alternatively to the previous one, if both previous Pyro's crit, there'd be another instant Pyro on its own
    - If THAT Pyro Crits and I now have another Heating Up and Inferno Blast, shoot off yet another Pyro
    - Pop Alter Time and repeat from step #5, popping as many Pyro's as possible, before hitting Combustion

    Obviously through all that strive to maintain the Invocation buff and Mage Bomb (With the last tick being clipped in case of NT).

    If you see anything wrong with that or if you can think of anything else that could prove helpful , please do share, I'd be much obliged. I'll also update this with an armory link, assuming said armory remembers to refresh once in a blue moon.

    Best regards,
    D.H.
    Last edited by Choda; 2012-11-20 at 09:13 AM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Choda View Post
    Heya,

    As a disclaimer - I've raided in the past... hell, I've raided a lot in the past. I've had 8/13 heroic bosses cleared with my own raid group back in the first Cata tier. However, I've stopped playing since then, and only came back last week. Needless to say, I'm assembling a raid group again, and I'm about to give the Vaults a try for the first time this Wednesday.

    My gear isn't all that peachy right now (I'd show you my armory but since I just transferred and race changed, it didn't update yet), sitting at a mere 14.4k spell power some ~12% crit, ~5% haste, ~19% mastery + hit cap. The large amount of mastery is due to the crafted PvP gear that I currently sport.

    What I am trying to figure out now are two things - my gear considered, would I benefit more from frost than fire? The general consensus that I am seeing is "frost beats fire at low gear", but that statement seems kind of fishy.

    Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, I'd love to get a double check on my actual approach to fire gameplay. For all its cooldown juggling complexity, it strikes me as a relatively simple approach once one gets the hang of it:

    - Evocate 9 seconds before the pull
    - Apply mage bomb
    - Start off with Pyroblast, then spam fireballs until Heating Up proc's
    - Turn Heating Up into a Pyroblast! via Inferno Blast
    - Pop all cooldowns, PoM & Alter Time
    - Pyro (Hot Streak)
    - Pyro (PoM)
    - If I have heating up and Inferno Blast ready, hit another Inferno Blast and Pyro
    - Alternatively to the previous one, if both previous Pyro's crit, there'd be another instant Pyro on its own
    - If THAT Pyro Crits and I now have another Heating Up and Inferno Blast, shoot off yet another Pyro
    - Pop Alter Time and repeat from step #5, popping as many Pyro's as possible, before hitting Combustion

    Obviously through all that strive to maintain the Invocation buff and Mage Bomb (With the last tick being clipped in case of NT).

    If you see anything wrong with that or if you can think of anything else that could prove helpful , please do share, I'd be much obliged. I'll also update this with an armory link, assuming said armory remembers to refresh once in a blue moon.

    Best regards,
    D.H.
    Assuming Invocation:
    Evocate 5-7 seconds before pull depending on safety and haste. (Use Pull-Timer).
    Prepot.
    Start casting Fireball, Afterwards apply mage bomb. (If you can start casting precombat).
    Get a HU proc.
    Inferno Blast.
    Now. Do you play with PoM? - Ok. Use PoM if you do

    Alter Time.
    Pyroblast
    (Use PoM Pyro afterwards)
    Alter Time.
    Pyroblast
    (Use PoM Pyro)
    Do you have a strong Ignite? If yes, combustion. With 4x Instant pyro, you should have.

    I would use Living Bomb, or change depending on fight. Elegon/ Stone Guards it is.
    Personally I prefer Incanters Ward, but thats "suboptimal", Invocation or RoP is better on most fights.
    Frost is great and all, but I believe its alot worse than Fire. Even with low gear (Assuming 463), On stone guards fire should still pull ahead.

    Armory does not refresh once in a blue moon, it refreshes if you relog. (It updates on login).
    Invocation should always be refreshes after falling or, OR in last second of Time Warp.

    I am not sure if you cast Invo during Time Warp, but I assume not.
    Main: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...l%C3%A8/simple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Everyone who does not miss Vanilla has no heart. Whoever wishes it back has no brain.

  3. #3
    Thanks for the quick response, and yeah, that's pretty much what I've had... I am aware that talents such as mage bomb or invocation / run of power are situational and depend heavily on the fight. As for the armory - it still shows my mage on my old server as my old race, so it's not that instant. Most of the people who play with me who transferred said it takes a while for the armory to recognize a faction / server change.

  4. #4
    High Overlord Abraxis's Avatar
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    Some little hints.

    1. Precombat evocate without mainhand (so no weaponenchanatproc prepull)

    If its possible do 12sec Pull Timer

    I do:

    Evo -> MI -> Equip Weapon -> use Pot -> Hardcast Pyro

    2. After using IB to get the first HS do FB till u got another HU and then do ur AT/PoM Action

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxis View Post
    2. After using IB to get the first HS do FB till u got another HU and then do ur AT/PoM Action
    This one's interesting... but that would require the HU to happen rather quickly after the HS, which could be doubtful with my abysmal crit chance.

  6. #6
    @faylo when do you get a spare gcd for mirror images??


    i usually do it after evo if you missed that :P

  7. #7
    High Overlord Abraxis's Avatar
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    Be aware of ur proc timers left and give it a chance of maybe 1-3 FB. If procs about to expire or u didn't have another crit then do AT/Pom as long as u profit from the procs.

  8. #8
    you may be better off as frost with such low crit. i believe it was 25% crit self buffed was the recommended time to switch to fire


    AddOn Author of: SpellNotReadyYet, Rune of Powa

  9. #9
    Oh sorry, I completely forgot to mention - those stats above are completely unbuffed... I believe I have 22-ish percent self-buffed. It was 5% from Molten Armor and 5% from Arcane Intellect, right?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxis View Post
    Some little hints.

    1. Precombat evocate without mainhand (so no weaponenchanatproc prepull)

    If its possible do 12sec Pull Timer

    I do:

    Evo -> MI -> Equip Weapon -> use Pot -> Hardcast Pyro

    2. After using IB to get the first HS do FB till u got another HU and then do ur AT/PoM Action

    Sorry to jump in on this thread, but perhaps you can clarify this for me as I am still a bit confused by the “then do ur AT/POM action” and not sure if I am doing it right to get the absolute most out of my rotation.

    If I am using POM I am
    a) Fireball until Heating UP, then use IB
    b) Macro (ie trinket,POM, AT)
    c) Pyro (from IB)
    d) Pyro (from POM)
    e) Macro (to recast AT)
    f) Pyro (from IB)
    g) Pyro (from POM)
    h) Combust (if acceptable ignite doodahs)


    If not using POM
    a) Fireball until Heating UP, then use IB
    b) AT
    c) Pyro (from IB)
    d) AT
    e) Pyro (from IB)
    f) Combust (if acceptable ignite doodahs)

    So from reading this thread and the other ones in the in the Excellent Fire Mage Guide (etc), it sounds like I should be

    a) Fireball until Heating up then us IB (I now have a HS pyro ready)
    b) Fireball until another HU (now I still have the original pyro ready and will get another when I cast IB again)
    Now what do I do exactly?

    Sorry for being a bit slow, but I really want to be the best I can...
    Thanks in advance

  11. #11
    You're essentially correct, however note that the "using POM" scenario has a second "sub-scenario" in which you have POM and Combustion, but no AT (since the cooldown of AT is 3m and POM + (glyped) Combustion are 1.5m). In that case you'd do the same thing you wrote but without the e, f & g parts.

    However, as I said in my original post, it can happen that you get more instant Pyro's out of each scenario depending on lucky crits... for example:

    -Fireball (Crit)
    -HU proc
    -Fireball (Already pre-cast before HU proc)
    -IB
    (Cooldowns, POM & AT)
    -Pyro
    -Pyro

    At this point you should AT and 2xPyro again, however... if the second Fireball crit, you'll have both a HS and HU at the time when you pop cooldowns, so if the first Pyro crits you'll have a second HS Pyro, resulting in 3 Pyro's. Alternatively, if you do not have HU at the time when you pop cooldowns, the first Pyro could crit, giving you a HU. In this case, by the time you cast your POM Pyro, you'll have IB ready again and you can get a third Pyro out as well.

    The best case scenario however is that both the second Fireball and first Pyro crit, giving you a second HS Pyro before the POM Pyro, as well as the POM Pyro criting, giving you another HU which you can turn to yet another HS with IB, giving you 4 Pyros before you have to pop AT to revert.
    Last edited by Choda; 2012-11-20 at 09:27 AM.

  12. #12
    High Overlord Abraxis's Avatar
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    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...le-Combustions

    Here u can find more detailed thoughts.

    Waitung for HS AND HU make huge sense. But if u're unlucky, don't wait to long.
    Idealy when u have HS and HU u cast another FB and start PoM/AT action as decribed above.

    Reason: u have HU and HS and FB + Pyro hitting at the same time and if one of them crit u'll have another Pyro.

    Important: Don't finish the complete Pyro chain before combusting but be aware of the crits.

  13. #13
    Sorry – I am being really slow but I am not getting this last bit. If I do the following…


    a) Fireball until Heating up then use IB (I now have a HS pyro ready)
    b) Fireball until another HU (now I still have the original pyro ready and will get another when I cast IB again)


    I am still not sure what to do next. If I cast my instant pyro now from the previous HS then surely that will cancel the HU proc? Alternatively if I cast IB, surely that can’t give me another HS as I already have one I haven’t used?

  14. #14
    Yes, but the situation is as follows:

    You have HU, you have HS and most importantly, you have IB ready.

    Shoot instant Pyro (you lose HS, but you have HU while the Pyro is flying)
    Use IB right after (Consume HU, get HS while Pyro is still flying)
    Use instant Pyro

    It's just a matter of using IB before the first HU consuming Pyro lands.

  15. #15
    High Overlord Abraxis's Avatar
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    No!!! Dont use the second IB it will kill ur ignite if the HS Pyro critted.

    When HS/HU both are up then do:

    FB -> HS Pyro -> (after Crit second HS Pyro) -> PoM Pyro -> (if u had a crit for the second HS so far -> Combust -> the remaining Pyros

    If ur first HS Pyro dont crit do Pyros as long as u get 1 crit and after that 2 (max.3) more and then combust.
    Last edited by Abraxis; 2012-11-20 at 10:41 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    @faylo when do you get a spare gcd for mirror images??


    i usually do it after evo if you missed that :P
    Actually, I don't know that. As Its a 3 min cd, and barely a dps increase, I normally just do it instead of a fireball. and without int procs. A perfect time, would actually be just after a instant pyro, because then your Inferno blast will be on cooldown, equals this is the time you can ONLY Fireballl, without "wasting Inferno Blast cd".
    Last edited by Faylo; 2012-11-20 at 10:51 AM.
    Main: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...l%C3%A8/simple
    Old Main: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Needle/simple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Everyone who does not miss Vanilla has no heart. Whoever wishes it back has no brain.

  17. #17
    Is there any *real* benefit from mirror images these days as far as dps is concerned at all actually?

  18. #18
    pretty sure mirror image does more damage than any other spell in terms of using 1 GCD could be wrong here.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    pretty sure mirror image does more damage than any other spell in terms of using 1 GCD could be wrong here.
    If thats so, assuming they are counted as guardian (And scaling) they need to be used with procs, as they update dynamically.
    Main: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...l%C3%A8/simple
    Old Main: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Needle/simple
    LFR Hero/Alt: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...astasya/simple
    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    Everyone who does not miss Vanilla has no heart. Whoever wishes it back has no brain.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    pretty sure mirror image does more damage than any other spell in terms of using 1 GCD could be wrong here.
    That's true, but not by a lot. Their overall damage contribution is relatively small (<2%) so if you were to have a compelling reason to save them for survival you probably should, else I would imagine you want to pop them before your precast pyro or otherwise when you're just fishing for HU procs.

    They key thing as with any cooldown is you can delay it as long as you want for the "optimal" time to pop it as long as you don't lose any number of usages during the fight. Ex: If you're doing Gara'jal, a 6 minute fight, you have 2.5 minutes of room to work with in finding the optimal time to use Mirror Images, so you could be very selective about when to use it. If you're doing a 6:40 second fight that changes entirely.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2012-11-20 at 12:53 PM.

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