How do you do Windlord Mel'jarak with classes that suck on AoE?

[reflection]

Hey

Yesterday we had our second evening wiping on Mel'jarak because we didn't have enough AoE damage (Hunter, Shadow Priest, Boomkin). After we recognised that the Adds just don't die we decided to change the strategy. We just smashed down the amber trappers and then focussed the boss, but we had the same enrage issues -.-

I hate it when raid comp really matters that much? Any ideas?

Thanks!

[Ninsew]

We stunned two menders, two "chargers" and pulled the rest together. We cleaved the mender down (so that we got boss and other adds down a bit, but focus on mender). When they're down, we killed the "charger" guys. Then finally the Amber guys. then boss.

We have two boomkins and a hunter, so this is the easiest way.

[Deleted]

We CC 2 menders, one blademaster and one amber-trapper. Then we AoE everything down, making sure they all die at the same time. It doesn't mater if it lasts a little longer due to low AoE setups (like ours) as the phase isn't tough to handle at all. With 2 blademasters the strike won't kill anyone. With 2 amber-trappers you can always release everyone from the amber trap, and with 1 mender you won't have to worry about Quickening eating your tank or interrupting Mending too much.

After they all die together (Menders preferably just a second before the rest, since when you kill others before them, the CC on the menders will break and they will instantly cast Mending), you'll be in p2 without ever doing anything else than trolling some adds down. We tried focusing down groups before, but it didn't work half as well as this. By the way, when you say the adds just don't die, are you sure you're not letting any heals go through? I mean adds will go down quite quickly regardless of comp, seeing as the average tank alone will do around 300k dps.

[Nitros14]

I imagine it's a matter of not playing well and not your classes being bad. This is one of the rare fights Hunters don't suck on. Moonkins are only low single target (which might cause enrage issues since more than half the fight should be just burning down the boss single target).

We found it was never a good idea to have more than one amber trapper up for any period of time. They massively lower your DPS with traps and resin.

Prepared healers/raids can use absorbs and small cooldowns to let you have three blademasters up. Two menders is usually fine. Just keep single target DPS on the single trapper so it isn't too high when the other two groups die. Also are you stacking for healing during phase 2? If so you might want to consider not stacking and finding ways to heal through it because you'll lose a ton of DPS that way. If you have any rogues or fire mages have them blade flurry/combust off the boss once you have the blademasters down.

[Deleted]

Hunters equals bad AoE? o_O Hmm, me thinks that one thing we actually are good at atm, its single target we are lacking a wee bit on.

Spriest Multidotting, Boomkins can do the same. Id say your comp is fine for it.

[Kisho]

Yeah, those classes don't suck on AoE. At all. If those players are excusing their low DPS on their class, then you need to slap some sense into them and tell them to learn to play.

[Nestar]

Yeah, those classes don't suck on AoE. At all. If those players are excusing their low DPS on their class, then you need to slap some sense into them and tell them to learn to play.

You're unfortunately very mistaken about the aoe in regards to these classes. If you took a few seconds to actually look at a few top parses you'd see a very definite differance between the aoe damage done by shadow preists, boomkins, hunters and the rest of the pack. It's quite the remarkable gap.

True hunters can switch over to survival and do a good amount more, but the average is still like 150k in that build, (vs almost 200k from feral, fury or frost) that kind of difference is kinda hard to ignore.

In Beast Mastery (which a large percentage of hunters will be reforging for currently) they'd be lucky to pull 140k, And shadow/boomkin aren't that much further ahead. If you weren't already aware, mindsear in particular was nerfed to the ground right before MoP (its been brought back to about 75% of its original power since) but its still piss-poor compared to the majority of other classes. And multi-dotting just barely beats it out, dropping substantially once you start losing targets. Boomkins are in the same situation.

[Deleted]

We stunned two menders, two "chargers" and pulled the rest together. We cleaved the mender down (so that we got boss and other adds down a bit, but focus on mender). When they're down, we killed the "charger" guys. Then finally the Amber guys. then boss.

We have two boomkins and a hunter, so this is the easiest way.

Same, but we kill the trappers second, and bladers third.
Enrage timer was an issue to start with, but on the kill, it was pretty smooth.
Just gotta get that perfect try, and it'll go down.

[Yazwa]

Tbh in our 10 man we switch me (SP) with resto shaman, i go heal he goes dps. The aoe SP currently does is very weak, yeah we got proc talents but they proc to much so we dont have time to reapply dots again, And our aoe mind sear damage is to Low. Same goes for heroic feng shadow phase those are bosses for ele shamans demo locks warriors and rouges, fire mages. Dont know about boomies or hunters but they should be fine dps vise

[Xeraxis]

You're unfortunately very mistaken about the aoe in regards to these classes. If you took a few seconds to actually look at a few top parses you'd see a very definite differance between the aoe damage done by shadow preists, boomkins, hunters and the rest of the pack. It's quite the remarkable gap.

True hunters can switch over to survival and do a good amount more, but the average is still like 150k in that build, (vs almost 200k from feral, fury or frost) that kind of difference is kinda hard to ignore.

In Beast Mastery (which a large percentage of hunters will be reforging for currently) they'd be lucky to pull 140k, And shadow/boomkin aren't that much further ahead. If you weren't already aware, mindsear in particular was nerfed to the ground right before MoP (its been brought back to about 75% of its original power since) but its still piss-poor compared to the majority of other classes. And multi-dotting just barely beats it out, dropping substantially once you start losing targets. Boomkins are in the same situation.

Hunter Logs
Priest Logs
Boomkin Logs

Now next time maybe it would be best to actually do your work instead of making up a bunch of bullshit.

[Deleted]

You're unfortunately very mistaken about the aoe in regards to these classes. If you took a few seconds to actually look at a few top parses you'd see a very definite differance between the aoe damage done by shadow preists, boomkins, hunters and the rest of the pack. It's quite the remarkable gap.

True hunters can switch over to survival and do a good amount more, but the average is still like 150k in that build, (vs almost 200k from feral, fury or frost) that kind of difference is kinda hard to ignore.

In Beast Mastery (which a large percentage of hunters will be reforging for currently) they'd be lucky to pull 140k, And shadow/boomkin aren't that much further ahead. If you weren't already aware, mindsear in particular was nerfed to the ground right before MoP (its been brought back to about 75% of its original power since) but its still piss-poor compared to the majority of other classes. And multi-dotting just barely beats it out, dropping substantially once you start losing targets. Boomkins are in the same situation.

Pro tip: let your BM hunter reforge into SV stats.

[Navoan]

We CC 2 menders, one blademaster and one amber-trapper. Then we AoE everything down, making sure they all die at the same time. It doesn't mater if it lasts a little longer due to low AoE setups (like ours) as the phase isn't tough to handle at all. With 2 blademasters the strike won't kill anyone. With 2 amber-trappers you can always release everyone from the amber trap, and with 1 mender you won't have to worry about Quickening eating your tank or interrupting Mending too much.

After they all die together (Menders preferably just a second before the rest, since when you kill others before them, the CC on the menders will break and they will instantly cast Mending), you'll be in p2 without ever doing anything else than trolling some adds down. We tried focusing down groups before, but it didn't work half as well as this. By the way, when you say the adds just don't die, are you sure you're not letting any heals go through? I mean adds will go down quite quickly regardless of comp, seeing as the average tank alone will do around 300k dps.

Basically exactly what Shedi said, no need to have two menders up so trap 2, trap 1 blademaster and 1 trapper. It's easy to break people out even with two trappers up and having 3 blademasters is stupid considering how easy it is just to have one CCd.

Imo you should NOT be just killing off one type of add at a time and moving on, the reason why is because for each set of adds that die the boss gains a massive dmg boost, and that makes the AoE rain of knives (name's probably wrong, damn my memory) do massively more damage, and considering you cannot stack in that phase easily whilst trappers etc are up it's just not worth it. Get all of the adds very low (at the very least all sub 10%, but always try to have the mender lower than the rest) then hold DPS until after a rain AoE then nuke the adds down. That way you have lots of time to re-position before the next rain.

Our hunter does surprisingly well on windlord, priests can lag behind but they wont be -bad- unless they simply are bad. They do have AoE which is what counts it doesn't have to be the best in order for you to kill it.

[Deleted]

dont have a clue what is wrong with spriests i play one and on that fight i was struggling to reach 100k dps, doesnt help that we have to channel mind flay/sear whilst:
dispelling, ccing, breaking prisons, being imprisoned and having tons of resins on us tbh.

but yeah i usualy top my 10 man guilds dps on this fight i was just poor...like really bad so bad that i was thinking i should go with an alt or something lol

[Nestar]

Hunter Logs
Priest Logs
Boomkin Logs

Now next time maybe it would be best to actually do your work instead of making up a bunch of bullshit.

Did you seriously not notice the other classes right next to these? all pulling higher? hmm, who didn't do their work.
Also, these numbers are for the entire fight, if the class has a strong single target or execute (shadow has strong execute) it will help balance it out, if you were able to narrow this down to only the first say 30% of the fight, these would be much further separated.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/..._Death_Knight/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ral-Cat_Druid/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...25N/Fire_Mage/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ination_Rogue/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ology_Warlock/

This also comes down to the issue of, Shadow and Boomkin just don't have the option to 'switch specs'. There's no alternate int builds they can run, the only choice you really have is to replace them temporarily on this fight with a class that can pull the numbers.

Edit: I'd also like to point out, that the number one ranked s-priest, was 15th out of the dmg in his group.

[Tehstool]

Hey

Yesterday we had our second evening wiping on Mel'jarak because we didn't have enough AoE damage (Hunter, Shadow Priest, Boomkin). After we recognised that the Adds just don't die we decided to change the strategy. We just smashed down the amber trappers and then focussed the boss, but we had the same enrage issues -.-

I hate it when raid comp really matters that much? Any ideas?

Thanks!

Hunter? Have them go SV and they'll be fine. As for the boomkin, multi dot. Their aoe isn't bad, it just isn't the best and you should have no trouble downing the boss because their aoe is slightly lower.

[Kesandri]

Hey

Yesterday we had our second evening wiping on Mel'jarak because we didn't have enough AoE damage (Hunter, Shadow Priest, Boomkin).

I hate it when raid comp really matters that much? Any ideas?

Shadow priest and hunters should easily be doing a good 120k on that fight, maybe 110k for a less equipped raid however to get to windlord the 110k marker is a minimum. If those classes are not hitting that dps it is the player and very much not the class so they need to go and do the homework required to achieve such numbers.
From a simple view your hunter/s should be survival and run the thrill of the hunt talent, and your shadow priest will need to multidot keeping pain and touch up on all targets.
Each dps should also focus the add your focusing as main target, hunter especially due to lots of extra kill shots etc.

As for the boomkin I cannot comment, not got one in our raids.

To conclude, your dpsers are underperforming and trying to use the class as an excuse, they need to learn the class they are playing.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 10:45 AM ----------

dont have a clue what is wrong with spriests i play one and on that fight i was struggling to reach 100k dps, doesnt help that we have to channel mind flay/sear whilst:
dispelling, ccing, breaking prisons, being imprisoned and having tons of resins on us tbh.

but yeah i usualy top my 10 man guilds dps on this fight i was just poor...like really bad so bad that i was thinking i should go with an alt or something lol

Our priest was also struggling on this fight (90k tops) until we sat down and had a look at a number of top priest logs for that fight, it came clear to us that mind seer was not the way to go and instead multidotting ALL adds with pain and touch in order to get mroe dmg from dev plague. Also mind spike is the way to go too



Note - I should have added we use a 1 tank tactic and CC 2 menders, 1 trapper and 1 blade, we tank the boss and remaining adds all together.

[Holofernes]

actually we use a frostmage, a boomkin, a spriest and a a suv hunter, a assa rogue and a fury warrior. multidotting and one tank worked for us.

[Ragedaug]

Hunter Logs
Priest Logs
Boomkin Logs

Now next time maybe it would be best to actually do your work instead of making up a bunch of bullshit.

Not that I want to defend the OP, but the guy you quoted wasn't wrong. You link the top parses. He said average. You can easily click the other classes using the links across the top of that page (that you linked) and see that other specs are easily 50k+ ahead of Boomkins, SPriests, and a couple of the Hunter Specs. Not to mention you linked 25 man and if you link 10 man you'll see it line up closer to the numbers that Nestar was using.

It's always fun to see someone adamantly refute data, accusing another of not doing research, then link to a website that allows us to see they were pretty much right on.

That said, there were several specs that hovered around the 200k mark, while there were some DPS specs that were between 250k and 300k....with, of course, tanks being king on the DPS meters for that fight. But I would think if you've got a Fire Mage capable of pulling 50% more damage on an AOE fight, while not losing a step for single target fights, it can get frustrating for the non-mage team mate.

[reflection]

Great discussion going on actually I don't have numbers for AoE because with the comp yesterday we decided to go only with the "kill the ambers only - single target" strategy. Maybe I have some more numbers if we do try the AoE strategy in the next raid. Seems there's also a very controversial discussion about classes.

[m4rtini]

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Wind_Lord...14/60/default/
balance,sp, BM hunter far below the rest