Is LFR ruining the raid experience?

[Danielm7]

I've played and raiding since vanilla too. I'd agree that a lot of people put on their rose colored glasses when they think farther back in the game. With that in mind I had the most fun raiding in BC, having a tight group of friends that played very well together was a huge part of that.

I raided up until earlier Cata tiers, then we had a baby which changes things dramatically for most people. Took a break, came back, that tight group of players was gone, I wasn't in a raiding guild, etc.

I was still playing and enjoying the game, when LFR was released I was able to at least see the content when it was current, which I enjoy. I know it isn't the same experience I had in the past working closely with people and being so excited when we downed a new boss, but I don't expect it to be either. Now I have a more casual schedule (note, it doesn't mean "casuals" don't know how to play the game) and like that I can log in and get into an LFR group and be able to see the current content without a whole lot of drama involved on my schedule.

If LFR is ruining your gaming experience it is only because you are letting that happen. Either don't run it or stop being so upset that other people get to see the content in a toned down manner. Pick either option and you can go back to your same old raiding that you had before.

[ganush]

Damn, some of you took this opinion personally. I'm not saying LFR players are bad, or that my guild is superior to be the only ones who deserve to see the content. We're far from it, and we have much to aspire to still. I think I made that abundantly clear in my post.

LFR is certainly optional. As is doing heroics dungeons prior to raiding, buying enchants, gemming, etc. However, it's generally considered unacceptable behavior to be skipping out on upgrade routes that benefit your raid. I rather doubt many guilds would accept such a mentality from their players.

To my earlier point, regardless of whether they are optional or not, the boss and zone gets cheapened when there a loot pinata version of it available. Yes, that version can be avoided, but this is an MMO - not a single player game. Yes, it'll be more fun killing it on normal and heroic difficulty, that's for sure - but some of that value is lost along the way.

A very large sector of the games playerbase sees anything negative about LFR and assumes that it's just some selfish elitist trying to take their content away. I think LFR is fine and I could care less about who sees what content, yet I agree entirely with the original post, I don't think the way the content is released currently through LFR is a good system, and I believe it will hurt the game in the long term. I am fine with LFR existing, it just needs to be different somehow. I will continute to be a proponent of it sharing a lockout with normal modes and I will continue to be a proponent of a slower gating system than currently exists (I would love to see one boss released per week). I realize a lot of people don't want that, but as a species we're not always great at knowing what is best for ourselves. It's not because I don't think people should see the content, it's because I think slower gating keeps people more engaged looking forward to the next boss.

[bgwilly31]

The people opposed to this thread keep seeming to completely miss the point that everyone in here agreeing with the OP doesnt think LFR should go away. Just be delayed more behind current content. Thats all.

My example that i have used in my own thoughts since LFR was released. Was as if say Halo 4 came out on release day. And a "God Mode code" Came along with it in the box. Where you could beat the game and its 7-8 hrs of content in a matter of 45 minutes. Who in the hell would want that. LFR is just that. You see all lore and know all with just a simple click to que right off the bat.

[Vargas]

The people opposed to this thread keep seeming to completely miss the point that everyone in here agreeing with the OP doesnt think LFR should go away. Just be delayed more behind current content. Thats all.

My example that i have used in my own thoughts since LFR was released. Was as if say Halo 4 came out on release day. And a "God Mode code" Came along with it in the box. Where you could beat the game and its 7-8 hrs of content in a matter of 45 minutes. Who in the hell would want that. LFR is just that. You see all lore and know all with just a simple click to que right off the bat.

Or on the flip side you could skip "Normals" and go right to Heroics "Legendary", beat it then say "There's no content!" like every other MMO Champ scrubbin. Point is, fans are never going to be happy; either changes are made that benefits the raiders or there are changes made that benefit everyone else.

LFR is, IMO, fine the way it is. Its not designed with raid guilds in mind, so I don't believe raid guilds should have any say in how it operates. Its for those who can't commit to a raid schedule due to real-life commitments and such. Personally I don't care if LFR and Normal mode share a lockout; it doesn't affect me any.

[Jeza]

LFR has it's place. However, as far as I'm concerned, Blizzard is ruining the experience that raids had provided us.

I pretty much agree with this.
The Raidfinder doesn't let more casual player get as taste of the "raid experience" at all, since most abilities are so weak that you can simply ignore them and make the fight a tank'n'spank. It's like raiding a dungeon one addon after it got released, you could just make an instance with a bunch of 200-million-life-trashmobs that have random skins and it wouldn't be much of a difference.

At the same time, you kinda "have" to do it, because it's the easiest and fastest way to improve your equipment and speed up the progress in the normal/hardcore mode. But it really takes away the feeling when you finally reach the endboss - after you have already killed his punching bag version multiple times.

The best way would probably to delay it by half a tier or make it a bit more challenging (though that could backfire, seeing how people already leave after the first wipe in the current LFR because doing something for your gear seems to be unacceptable).
Or put it on the same lock-out as the normal/heroic version. Would slow raiders down, but also take away the feeling of "I need to do this to improve my raid performance".

[ganush]

Or on the flip side you could skip "Normals" and go right to Heroics "Legendary", beat it then say "There's no content!" like every other MMO Champ scrubbin. Point is, fans are never going to be happy; either changes are made that benefits the raiders or there are changes made that benefit everyone else.

LFR is, IMO, fine the way it is. Its not designed with raid guilds in mind, so I don't believe raid guilds should have any say in how it operates. Its for those who can't commit to a raid schedule due to real-life commitments and such. Personally I don't care if LFR and Normal mode share a lockout; it doesn't affect me any.

Which I would agree with 100% IF they shared the same lockout, but they don't.

[raps]

LFR will get better after this initial raid tier. It feels mandatory now because it kinda is for anyone not in the top 5%. Once we're through this initial tier, and you've got the heroic gear, you wont need it for the next tier. It's sorta like how a heroic firelands guild didn't need LFR going into DS. It isn't the best example because a lot opted to run it because the set bonuses from tier gear was so good. Normally the last tier has that advantage. I am sure some classes with have set bonuses that make LFR worth it for them, but not everyone. It will be an option for those guilds who are not able to clear heroics on the previous tier to get a boost going into the new set of raids, but it is far from mandatory.

The issue that I have with this expansion is that I am a casual player. I might find 2 hours a night to play each night. Whenever I try to do something, I am robbing peter to pay paul. Tonight I will be dedicating time to run LFR. This should take up my whole night, and I will need more than 2 hours to get through it all. I won't be able to do dailies. So I fall another day behind getting where I need to be to be able to get the valor gear or exalted quest items. If I don't get something to drop for me, I just wasted my night. My guild just started raiding in the Vaults last week because how slow we leveled/geared as a guild. I log in and decide "Do I run a few heroics, or do dailies for rep." So I decide to run 5 or so heroics, and get nothing to drop. Now I am a day behind on those dailies, with just some valor to show for it. I decide to do the dailies for a few days, and now I am a little closer to getting something, but I haven't actually improved my gear at all.

My only real problem with all of this is that the game isn't going wait for me. The next raid tier comes whether or not I am ready for it. Then the cycle starts to repeat itself. I need LFR and the new valor items to fill in the gaps so I can get through normal mode of the new raids. RNG and a gated currency naturally slow that down.

Overall, I have enjoyed a lot of the new mechanics this expansion introduced, but the rapid tier increases, and grindy dailies when combined with the RNG that comes with loot drops can get frustrating. I am still having fun because I have a core group that lives/plays like me, but I can feel some of the guys with more free time are getting frustrated.

In short: MMO's can be difficult to enjoy if you don't have a lot of free time.

[Auloria]

LFR's don't feel epic at all, but I like that the story feels more smooth. Instead of concentrating on min/maxing for the encounter, I'm enjoying the scenery and watching the fight unfold.

To be honest, the normal mode kills don't feel any less diminished, the same way that heroic kills feel epic even though I've done them on normal.

[Satanous]

What I didn't realize or know, up until this expansion, was that LFR is released nearly the same time as the normal mode content! This does not sit well with me at all.


Am I crazy?

Yes considering only one raid was released on lfr prior to this expansion.

[iamthedevil]

LFR is just something Blizzard made for ppl that cant raid at raid times that arnt part of a good raiding guild and for ppl that are just casual players

LFR is also just a basic of what the raids are look like its like 50% easyer than normal mode

LFR is just providing those who dont got the skill nor the time to properly raid

and tbh why are u doing LFR if ur in a good raiding guild prob cos u want those free epics aswell right cos thats what it is if ur lucky

I am far from casual, i play every day for hours on end after work. I use LFR because i don't want to join a guild. I have the time to raid, i have more than enough skill, i constantly top the meters, i've been raiding since Onyxia and Molten Core, i know my classes inside and out. I just voided all your thoughts on why LFR is around. I only use LFR because i don't want to be bothered by people like you.

[SamR]

I remember back in TBC when people started releasing kill vids before most guilds got to the bosses. It ruined the experience of seeing the boss for the first time and figuring out all the mechanics yourself. But on the other hand, if going into a boss blind was that important to you, you could just not watch the vids. Same with LFR. If that ruins normal/heroics raids for you, you could just not do it.

Watching vids helps you prepare for a fight and kill bosses more quickly.

Running LFR helps you get gear upgrades and kill bosses more quickly.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 10:38 AM ----------

The people opposed to this thread keep seeming to completely miss the point that everyone in here agreeing with the OP doesnt think LFR should go away. Just be delayed more behind current content. Thats all.

My example that i have used in my own thoughts since LFR was released. Was as if say Halo 4 came out on release day. And a "God Mode code" Came along with it in the box. Where you could beat the game and its 7-8 hrs of content in a matter of 45 minutes. Who in the hell would want that. LFR is just that. You see all lore and know all with just a simple click to que right off the bat.

You can watch streams and see the whole of all the heroic fights now the week a new raid launches. Back in vanilla, you were lucky to get a screenshot and nobody except the people doing them even knew what the fights looked like. I remember there was a thread in vanilla about who was the farthest along on killing Nefarian and people would post screenshots with half the pic blacked out to keep their strat secret. Lol.

Mystique is gone. You can't bring it back.

[bitterbrew]

come on now. its not that big of a deal. no ones heart starts pumping and ppl cheering in their seats when an LFR boss is killed.
its when ur whole raid is less then 30% HP and that enrage timer is getting deadly close. like in Hard modes.

LFR is fine. its there for a reason. people like you and i need to focus on the REAL content.

[bgwilly31]

Or on the flip side you could skip "Normals" and go right to Heroics "Legendary", beat it then say "There's no content!" like every other MMO Champ scrubbin. Point is, fans are never going to be happy; either changes are made that benefits the raiders or there are changes made that benefit everyone else.

LFR is, IMO, fine the way it is. Its not designed with raid guilds in mind, so I don't believe raid guilds should have any say in how it operates. Its for those who can't commit to a raid schedule due to real-life commitments and such. Personally I don't care if LFR and Normal mode share a lockout; it doesn't affect me any.

Your reply made no sense. Whos talking about no content? Nobody in here is complaining about amounts of content. Were expressing how LFR might ruin content. But not the amounts of it given. But thanks for the waste of a read.

[Ikkarus]

Did you really think that Yogg'saron would be that epic if Ulduar was available in LFR? Of course not, ppl would forget about him in a few months and that's my point, because of the LFR system we never gonna have that awesome raids and bosses anymore, it took the "epicness" of the game even for those who choose not use the Raid Finder.

[hiragana]

Not for me, its the only way id see the bosses these days.

[Nelrock]

I only go to LFR as filler...to make up for Bliz's craptastic RNG. Which...come to think of it...hasn't amounted to much more than valor...since I've only netted 1 drop, which I didn't even need.
I'm already about to say to hell with it. If it wasn't current...I'd never go.

[Nimitzles]

Not for me, its the only way id see the bosses these days.

Since LFR has been released I haven't been motivated enough to do the same content at a more difficult setting, so I just pvp now and do LFR just to faceroll the content.

Also it seems to be affecting a lot of other players even on our realm, the last 2 remaining 25 man raiding guilds on darksorrow horde have called it quits.

[SamR]

Did you really think that Yogg'saron would be that epic if Ulduar was available in LFR? Of course not, ppl would forget about him in a few months and that's my point, because of the LFR system we never gonna have that awesome raids and bosses anymore, it took the "epicness" of the game even for those who choose not use the Raid Finder.

Nefarian wouldn't have been that epic if top progression guilds were streaming their attempts. Videos and streams took a lot of the epicness out of raid kills even for those who choose not to watch them.

[Osmeric]

But LFR comes one week after normal modes so we have already seen all content when LFR is released.

Where "we" = the tiny fraction of players who clear normal mode raids the first week they were released.

[Fim]

The simplest way Blizz could make LFR feel like less of a chore is to make all lockouts weekly and per boss.

You can kill a boss on Heroic, Normal or LFR, but you get one shot at loot of that boss every week. That'd effectively prevent guilds that can kill bosses on normal or HM from treating LFR like a loot pinata, while still leaving people who want to gear an alt or missed raid or can't raid with an organized raiding guild with some avenue to raid that week. It'd completely remove the feeling of it being required, because without incentive to run it for gear, people who can clear on normal or heroic would only bother if they chose to, rather than feeling compelled to for minor upgrades.

To prevent that from causing a pileup of people running LFR only towards the end of the raid week, they'd just have to implement a way to pass and not waste your per-boss loot lockout in LFR - the rudiments of which already exist with the charms of good fortune since you can pass and not use those in LFR.

Effectively removing any reason to run LFR for raiding guilds capable of clearing normal or heroic would cause more people complaining about not having enough to do outside raid again, but LFR was never "extra content" really. Personally I think they ought to implement full out gear and level scaling a-la GW2 and add decent rewards to old raids and dungeons so that they'd be compelling and challenging to run. That'd take out many of the complaints about their not being enough to do. I'd be perfectly happy running BT or ICC or whatever every week, if I could get end-game flasks, food, cloth or enchanting mats, and maybe a shot of epics from the final bosses only. I'm much happier running dungeons and raids, rather than farming for mats and there is enough old content in the game that I could do something different each week and not be bored (as long as the level and gear scaling worked well).