1. #1

    Screaming Tiger, Qiang's Unbreakable Polearm (489) vs Starshatter (476) for DPS

    Hi all community, i was thinking about which one of those 2h Weapons will be better for DPS Dk Frost.

    1k STR + Expertise vs +2ks Weapon Dmg + Haste.

    Thx a lot!

    PS: I dont have the luck of any drop (LFR or Normal mode) for the sword, so i dont know how to check the amount of dps out with Starshatter against the Pole with my actually stuff.
    PS2: I cant link the items from wowhead cos id never made an account here before xD.

  2. #2
    Immortal Maklor's Avatar
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    I think this is the third or fourth thread on this, please use search.

    But try to load your char into askmrrobot.com and see what it says.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    I think this is the third or fourth thread on this, please use search.

    But try to load your char into askmrrobot.com and see what it says.
    He said for dps, don't think its been discussed for dps. Personally i'm not too sure as the higher weapon damage and better stats *could* make it better, but yea, as he said, use askmrrobot or another sim to check.

  4. #4
    I was cheking like 10 pages from the forum and just founded about DK Blood, nothing about Dk Frost2h.

    And let me ask you, askmrrobot and maxdps consider about the raidbuffs, procs and the rest of this things? Thx a lot.

  5. #5
    Immortal Maklor's Avatar
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    I don't think it has raid buffs but just about everything else, I don't really see that it would matter much anyway.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    I don't think it has raid buffs but just about everything else, I don't really see that it would matter much anyway.
    The problem comes when we are talking about the difference between STR and Weapon dmg, cos with Pillar of frost for example, Kings, or Fallen Crusader, you will get a STR Bonus an improve of this will make you hit stronger, thats because i was asking about the buffs and procs into the raid refering about this webs.

    If someone can help me to know this, it will be so helpfull.

    Thx a lot.

  7. #7
    My math could be 100% wrong... but I'll give it a shot

    For my gear, weapon dps is 8.42dps per. Str: 2.8, Haste: 1.51, Crit: 1.04, Exp: 1.86, Mastery 0.80;

    Agi weapon
    4186 DPS; 35246
    580 haste; 875
    871 Mastery; 696
    36817 + whatever the agi gives you in crit

    Str weapon
    3708.5; 31221
    1015 str
    745 crit; 775
    561 exp; 1043
    35881 (before kings, pillar of frost, etc)

    Honestly, I think Starshatter would come out ahead with Kings/Pillar/Meta gem. This is also depending on what you reforge, etc. Also depending on what your gear is at, and what your stat weights come out to be.


    I would just get simcraft, and create two profiles in CharDev, and just run those.

  8. #8
    One thing to note if you are going to sim the 2 weapons... fights with aoe will generally favor the strength weapon due to HB not having anything to do with weapon damage.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    One thing to note if you are going to sim the 2 weapons... fights with aoe will generally favor the strength weapon due to HB not having anything to do with weapon damage.
    Yes i know, i was thinking about a monotarjet fight! Thx!!

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 07:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    My math could be 100% wrong... but I'll give it a shot

    For my gear, weapon dps is 8.42dps per. Str: 2.8, Haste: 1.51, Crit: 1.04, Exp: 1.86, Mastery 0.80;

    Agi weapon
    4186 DPS; 35246
    580 haste; 875
    871 Mastery; 696
    36817 + whatever the agi gives you in crit

    Str weapon
    3708.5; 31221
    1015 str
    745 crit; 775
    561 exp; 1043
    35881 (before kings, pillar of frost, etc)

    Honestly, I think Starshatter would come out ahead with Kings/Pillar/Meta gem. This is also depending on what you reforge, etc. Also depending on what your gear is at, and what your stat weights come out to be.


    I would just get simcraft, and create two profiles in CharDev, and just run those.

    Really good, thx a lot! I think that too cos 5% STR (Kings) + 15% STR (Fallen Crusader) + 20% STR Pillar of frost i think it will be better than this 1k AP.

    So i need to pray a lot for a LFR, Normal or HC Starshatter or Shin´Ka.

    And i need to explain why i was asking this, if you go to askmrrobot or maxdps :

    Maxdps:
    489 Polearm -> 40,769.0 dps.
    476 Sward -> 39,085.3 dps.

    Askmrrobot:
    489 Polearm -> 0 plus.
    476 Sword -> -1646.33 (The same more or less)

    And i didnt know if it was with or without raid buffs.

    Thx a lot for the info so to Sum UP :

    Screaming Tiger, Qiang's Unbreakable Polearm (489) < Starshatter (476) -> for DPS

    Edit: Agi gives Crit in a DK, but its a shit because its so low rate.
    Last edited by Kulldrash; 2012-11-20 at 06:57 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Honestly, I think Starshatter would come out ahead with Kings/Pillar/Meta gem.
    Assuming you got your weights from Simcraft, all those are already taken into account, so Starshatter is slightly worse.

  11. #11
    No amount of stats will ever make up for 1k strength.

    Ever.

    You're a dk, this how you play.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Totle View Post
    No amount of stats will ever make up for 1k strength.

    Ever.

    You're a dk, this how you play.
    It's not just stats there's also weapon dps :O
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Totle View Post
    No amount of stats will ever make up for 1k strength.

    Ever.

    You're a dk, this how you play.

    Thats not true, i´m a Dk and most of my skills strike with a weapon dmg , so not allways ths STR its all ^^.

    This is how we must play

  14. #14
    Screaming Tiger is this -> 12055 - 18084 damage and 4186 DPS
    it's 2k MAX damage, 1400 Min damage, which comes to about a 500 DPS increase.

    From Wowpedia, we have this formula for weapon damage: Weapon Damage = (Weapon DPS + AP/14) * Weapon Speed, so

    3708.5 + 2030 (AP) / 14 x 3.6 = 1475.6 bonus damage from strength.

    Starshatter (RF) has 10680 minimum weapon damage. Add in the bonus and you're sitting at 12155.6 Min damage.

    Admittedly, the MAX damage of the sword is less than the MAX damage of the Polearm, but if you know of a way to always swing with Max damage, then please share.
    However, in terms of Min. damage, the sword is better because of strength.

    Especially now with upgrades. Since upgrading increases the damage numbers equally (at first level, min damage goes up by 500 for both sword and spear), then the increase to strength also pushes the sword further ahead.

    Agility & crit
    Screaming Tiger gives 1146 agility. According to http://blog.askmrrobot.com/2012/08/c...r-patch-5-0-4/ that's 1.91% crit vs 1.24% crit from Starshatter. Essentially, you're trading 1015 strength for 0.7% crit... This might be helpful if we didn't already have KM...

    Mastery
    Screaming Tiger provides 871 Mastery which is 1.45. This comes out to 2.9 (we'll say 3) so 6% bonus damage.
    Reforging out of Exp into Mast gives the sword 224 Mastery which is about .37. this comes out to 0.75 so 1.5% bonus damage.

    Granted, for mastery, the polearm gives you a bonus 4.5% damage, but reforging other gear should be able to get around this. Moreover, this only applies to Howling Blast and Frost Strike, both of which are below Obliterate.

    I haven't actually run sims, but this what makes me think that SS would be better.

    TL;DR
    All the bonuses you get from the polearm are either miniscule (crit) or don't work on our main ability (mastery) or are RNG based and not guarantee (Max damage)

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Totle View Post
    No amount of stats will ever make up for 1k strength.

    Ever.

    You're a dk, this how you play.
    lol... I have no words for you

  16. #16
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totle View Post
    ...

    I haven't actually run sims, but this what makes me think that SS would be better.

    TL;DR
    All the bonuses you get from the polearm are either miniscule (crit) or don't work on our main ability (mastery) or are RNG based and not guarantee (Max damage)
    Run sims. Your napkin math isn't really accurate or correct. It uses the right formulas but doesn't show understanding of how they should be applied to the situation at hand. Splitting up the calculations into trying to determine the worth of the weapon when isolating it doesn't make much sense. Compare your stats with weapon 1 vs. your stats with weapon 2, that's the only way to check which weapon is really better.

    If you'd want a quick and dirty comparison, try this: "how much % of your total strength do you get from your weapon" vs. "how much % of average weapon damage increase is the change"

    Also, when comparing weapon damage compare the average damage, not min/max dmg unless you wanna try a lucky max-dps-parse in which you want highest max dmg and pray for only hitting with max dmg

    Napkin math sucks for minuscule stuff, use a sim to compare. It's more accurate and gets the result faster.

  17. #17
    Screaming Tiger, Qiang's Unbreakable Polearm (489) > Starshatter (476)

    I used simulationcraft and my DK to see the difference. Screaming Tiger is a good upgrade.

    Lets ignore the secondary stats and just compare STR and WeaponDPS:

    exemple:

    Stat Weights
    WeaponDPS: 9,1
    Str: 2,72

    * you need for the missing 1015 STR, 303.38 WeaponDPS
    * WeaponDPS difference: Starshatter (476) - Polearm (489) = 477.5
    => You gain with the Polearm 174.1 WeaponDPS or ~582,5 STR

    The secondary stats on the Polearm are not bad, so you get even more extra DPS, when you compare both weapons with full stats.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Nye View Post
    Run sims. Your napkin math isn't really accurate or correct. It uses the right formulas but doesn't show understanding of how they should be applied to the situation at hand. Splitting up the calculations into trying to determine the worth of the weapon when isolating it doesn't make much sense. Compare your stats with weapon 1 vs. your stats with weapon 2, that's the only way to check which weapon is really better.

    If you'd want a quick and dirty comparison, try this: "how much % of your total strength do you get from your weapon" vs. "how much % of average weapon damage increase is the change"

    Also, when comparing weapon damage compare the average damage, not min/max dmg unless you wanna try a lucky max-dps-parse in which you want highest max dmg and pray for only hitting with max dmg

    Napkin math sucks for minuscule stuff, use a sim to compare. It's more accurate and gets the result faster.
    I try to be more conservative and focus on minimum damage.

    At least I know that I'll never slap the boss with a wet noodle.

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