Thread: 4piece bonus

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  1. #1

    4piece bonus

    didnt find anything about this yet

    is it a dps loss to not line it up with skullbanner?

    reck with 4p is 2:30 skullbanner is always 3:00 minutes
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    You're full of shit honey.

  2. #2
    other dps cooldown are on a 1min/3min cd, so i think yes, it's a dps loss.

  3. #3
    High Overlord Roseby's Avatar
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    Yes. Regardless of any other cofactors, if you don't line Reck up with Skull Banner during Execute Phase, it's a pretty hefty chunk of DPS that could have been.

    If you haven't been lining it up all fight, it just becomes a wider and wider gap to the point that waiting for it to line up during Execute Phase is whats necessary, and you don't gain any extra Recklessness procs through it.

    So you would be sacrificing lining it up with Skull Banner for the entire fight, only to have to line it up with skull banner in the end. Same amount of Recks + Banners, just not stacked for whatever reason. AKA DPS Loss.
    Last edited by Roseby; 2012-11-20 at 10:11 PM.

  4. #4
    makes sense, i shouldve edited the post too im still wondering when the recklessness glyph is a dps gain, even with only 20-25% crit?
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    You're full of shit honey.

  5. #5
    Is 4 piece set bonus good enough to use RF tier pieces over gear with slightly better stats?

  6. #6
    High Overlord Roseby's Avatar
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    Don't use Recklessness glyph. It's not worth a glyph slot.

    It depends how wide of a gap but for the most part, I would shoot for it Joe.
    Just don't switch heroic pieces for LFR lol.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Roseby View Post
    Don't use Recklessness glyph. It's not worth a glyph slot.

    It depends how wide of a gap but for the most part, I would shoot for it Joe.
    Just don't switch heroic pieces for LFR lol.
    Why wouldn't you use the glyph when using it means 18 seconds of 100% BT crit instead of only 12?

    Should result in a higher mastery uptime and more RB proccs.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by meteo View Post
    Why wouldn't you use the glyph when using it means 18 seconds of 100% BT crit instead of only 12?

    Should result in a higher mastery uptime and more RB proccs.
    ^ This exactly, the recklessness glyph is a major dps boost due to making your Bloodthirst completely crit capped at 22.4% Crit. (Which you SHOULD have with proper gear and raid buffs.)

    The duration of recklessness is also enough to allow you to carry about enough charges of Raging Blow into a second Colossus Smash cycle.

    Imo, this glyph is more of a requirement than Unending Rage.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by LordSpaztic View Post
    ^ This exactly, the recklessness glyph is a major dps boost due to making your Bloodthirst completely crit capped at 22.4% Crit. (Which you SHOULD have with proper gear and raid buffs.)

    The duration of recklessness is also enough to allow you to carry about enough charges of Raging Blow into a second Colossus Smash cycle.

    Imo, this glyph is more of a requirement than Unending Rage.
    makes sense too.. didnt think about that - thx, now i should get some sleep
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    You're full of shit honey.

  10. #10
    High Overlord Roseby's Avatar
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    It's not about critting an extra 1-2 Bloodthirsts.
    It's about critting everything within your Colossus Smash, especially during Execute phase.

    You can do whatever you want but if you look at most of the top tier DPS warriors in the world, they are not using glyph of recklessness.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Roseby View Post
    It's not about critting an extra 1-2 Bloodthirsts.
    It's about critting everything within your Colossus Smash, especially during Execute phase.

    You can do whatever you want but if you look at most of the top tier DPS warriors in the world, they are not using glyph of recklessness.
    You're still wrong, even without the glyph, you will not crit every single ability in a Colossus Smash.

    12 / 1.5 = 8 GCDs.
    18 / 1.5 = 12 GCDs.

    12 / 4.5 = 2 Possible Bloodthirst
    18 / 4.5 = 4 Possible Bloodthirsts

    8-2 = 6 GCDs Spent on Execute
    12-4 = 8 GCDs Spend on Execute

    2*20 = 40 Rage
    4*20 = 80 Rage

    Essentially, by glyphing you will gain a 2 extra gcds of recklessness which will have around a 50% Crit Rate. And you will have 40 more rage to work with to squeeze in more executes.

    P.S Sinnermighty from Blood Legion, Deac and McBaguette from Method, Oixte from DREAM Paragon, Комраден from Экзорсус is currently using the glyph.
    So effectively, you just armory'd Landsoul and saw he wasn't using it.

    Glyphs are meant to be personal choices and when your guild isn't seeing an execute phase till a certain number of attempts, I too would switch this glyph for something more beneficial like Rude Interruption or Raging Wind.

  12. #12
    High Overlord Roseby's Avatar
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    You are discounting Skull Banner and Bloodbath though.

    If in those 12 seconds you get however many more crits you would, especially within the CS sequence, the amount of damage that you will attain can quite likely override the extra 6 seconds of 30 percent crit.

    Yes, the 2 extra GCD's with Execute are nice, yes, 4 extra GCD's extra are also nice.
    The extra bloodthirsts and enrage are all nice, but you are discounting how critical CD stacking is for effective Fury DPS.
    If you get that much more out Bloodbath and Skull Banner from the unglyphed Reck, then it is realistic to believe that one could pump out equivalent if not superior DPS in those 12 seconds then you would in those 18 seconds.

    All of the warriors you listed are highly skilled and accomplished, but you can't shoot down my argument without empirical evidence.

    My argument is that not gylphing Recklessness if just as effective if not more so then glyphing it (GENERALLY), freeing up a glyph slot for Utility/DPS/Etc.
    Last edited by Roseby; 2012-11-21 at 05:39 AM.

  13. #13
    LordSpaztic, the glyph of Recklessness will be more useful as warriors gain crit. It is an okay glyph, but seeing as crit is rng, it has the potential to do both better and worse than other glyphs. That is the curse of rng, and probably my biggest gripe with fury atm.
    You can have two more bts and maintain an enrage for about 30% bonus damage on your hits, but due to you not guaranteeing a crit on the abilities after, it can be less effective. Crits do 206% damage. Enraged attacks do varying damage based on your mastery(and buff).
    I feel, since is the pattern in most glyphs, the glyphs are supposed to be situational, therefore, it shouldn't be a big dps gain or loss, until you reach the point where recklessness is being wasted.
    Also, on a side note, you'll have varying amounts of BT uses unless recklessness is bound to bt.
    0=Recklessness
    0.01=BT
    1.51=Ability
    3.01=Ability
    4.51=BT
    6.01=Ability
    7.51=Ability
    9.01=BT
    10.51=Ability
    12.01=Ability
    13.51=BT
    15.01=Ability
    16.51=Ability
    18.01=BT
    This is assuming close to 0 latency or delay between abilities. So, unless you use it recklessness the exact moment the gcd is over, you will only get 1 more BT. Also, you only get 2 additional non-BT abilities. So, 30% crit on 2 nonBTs and 1 BT (which already sits at double crit chance) doesn't really mean much when you compare it overall, since you are losing 50% on 5-6 abilities, which if one of them is CS, that is a lot of missed damage. (Using CS and making use of all the damage modifiers should grant the largest bonus damage during the cd) Also, since (without 4 piece), you'll only use it twice per most fights.

    Also, Skull Banner only lasts 10 seconds, meaning that it provides only extra bonus for a portion of Recklessness, and since it should be stacked with Recklessness for personal dps. Meaning the more you crit during it, the more damage you'll do overall.


    TLDR; it's up to the person, but I don't see it being a huge gain, especially since it's rng.
    On main topic, Skull Banner should be saved for Recklessness for person dps gain. For Raid dps gain, Banner should be used on cd, assuming dps are able to utilize it while it's down. (not useful if you are moving or boss transitions)
    Last edited by Recke; 2012-11-26 at 05:11 AM.

  14. #14
    There's a very easy way to prove who is wrong in regards to glyph of recklessness.

    Import your character into simcraft, remove the glyph, run.

    You will find out very quickly that the glyph is a DPS loss, for all the reasons that Roseby says.

    Now, I don't know about you all, but when I am about to use recklessness, I tend to use it with a colossus smash, bloodbath,(hopefully) a trinket proc or potion, and a basically full rage bar. This full rage bar is typically completely emptied out in 9 seconds with poor rng, and 12 seconds with good rng. After 12 seconds I'm spent on rage and am slowly building up for the next CS.

    Even if I HAD rage, why would I want to spend rage here? Any rage spent here will not be available for the next colossus smash.

    So here's the argument you guys are putting forward for using the glyph:

    Dude, you totally get 2 more raging blows, that HAS to be better than an additional 20% crit during the 12 seconds that we stack the most cooldowns for! Oh, and you get +20 more rage! (Whoever said we get 20 rage from each enrage, you are wrong.)

    First, let's destroy the argument of 2 more raging blows over not using the glyph.

    25% crit = 50% crit bloodthirst.
    2 Bloodthirsts = We can expect one of them to crit, on average.

    So out of the 2 extra Bloodthirsts that you gain under recklessness, one of them was most likely going to crit anyway. So really, you are only gaining 1 raging blow and 10 rage.

    Is 1 raging blow and 10 rage worth losing 20% crit during our cooldown stacking?

    Is it worth using 2 executes in the 12-18 second range? Wouldn't it make more sense to save the rage, and instead of hoping for a crit execute to happen, just wait for the guaranteed 40% damage increase from the next colossus smash?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    There's a very easy way to prove who is wrong in regards to glyph of recklessness.

    Import your character into simcraft, remove the glyph, run.

    You will find out very quickly that the glyph is a DPS loss, for all the reasons that Roseby says.
    Although I wasn't arguing for the glyph, this type of post makes me the Devil's Advocate.

    My dps simmed with the glyph, Patchwerk (8min fight). 104.7k
    My dps simmed without the glyph Patchwerk (8min fight). 104.74k
    My dps simmed with the glyph, Patchwerk (4min fight). 107.1k
    My dps simmed without the glyph Patchwerk (4min fight). 106.8k
    The variation is so small, that it really can't be considered a dps loss or gain, since this is in a Patchwerk fight where the boss won't be moved. If your target is moved during any portion of the recklessness, it'd be best to take the longer recklessness to do more damage. "But that won't happen!" You are right, you will never be caught with your pants down without berserkers rage after being feared twice in a row during empress. Or be knocked back on Ambershaper, etc.
    I also stated that it'll be more effective at higher crit values due to the higher likeliness that we'll be critting, which I would think is self explanatory. Thus, situational.

    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    So here's the argument you guys are putting forward for using the glyph:

    Dude, you totally get 2 more raging blows, that HAS to be better than an additional 20% crit during the 12 seconds that we stack the most cooldowns for! Oh, and you get +20 more rage! (Whoever said we get 20 rage from each enrage, you are wrong.)

    First, let's destroy the argument of 2 more raging blows over not using the glyph.

    25% crit = 50% crit bloodthirst.
    2 Bloodthirsts = We can expect one of them to crit, on average.

    So out of the 2 extra Bloodthirsts that you gain under recklessness, one of them was most likely going to crit anyway. So really, you are only gaining 1 raging blow and 10 rage.

    Is 1 raging blow and 10 rage worth losing 20% crit during our cooldown stacking?
    Although Skull Banner is only 10 seconds, let's look at your other cds that you'd be stacking so we can judge based on effectiveness.
    Bloodbath? 10 seconds. Lines up just fine, with only a small gap of not full utilization.
    Relic of Xuen? 15 seconds. Having more crit for a few more seconds might be more beneficial.
    Lei Shin's Final Orders? 20 seconds. Recklessness could be fully utilized.
    Avatar? 20 seconds (24 soon to be). Longer Recklessness will probably be more useful.
    Potion of Mogu Power? 25 seconds. Longer Recklessness will make more use of these bonus stats.
    Heroism/Timewarp/Lust? 40 seconds. Definitely leaning more towards the longer Recklessness again.
    So, your point is a little lost here. Is 18seconds of 30% crit when you have so many things lasting longer than 12 seconds.


    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    Is it worth using 2 executes in the 12-18 second range? Wouldn't it make more sense to save the rage, and instead of hoping for a crit execute to happen, just wait for the guaranteed 40% damage increase from the next colossus smash?
    Why would you limit it to 2? Ideally, you'd execute EVERY gcd during recklessness, most likely by saving up rage, then using CS->All available cds+2nd pot, and hope your character's rage gain through melee crits, berserkers rage, and possibly incoming damage are enough to fuel you. Take Blade Lord for example, or Garalon. Or Ambershaper. Or Grand Empress. Or Tsulong. Or Elegon. You'll be taking enough damage to be able to berserker stance for more rage, and then execute spam, in which having a longer time to execute will be viable.
    20% base crit+30% crit=50% crit for 18 seconds.
    20% base crit+50% crit=70% crit for 12 seconds.
    If you can get even 1 more execute in total with the 6 extra seconds, the glyph will be worth it.

    So, I'll say it again. It's situational.

  16. #16
    I've made two posts countering the above statement, but MMO-Champ won't post them.
    1) Instead of constantly simming Patchwerk, sim an Ultraxion fight (ie a fight with enough damage for rage gain in berserkers stance). Glyphed Recklessness is a dps gain.
    2) Try simming a fight where you only get 1 Recklessness. Glyphed Recklessness is a dps gain.
    3) If you can assume with a 50% crit chance that out of 2 abilities that you can expect one to crit, on average, then you realize using it during execute phase will be a dps gain in 18 seconds vs 12 seconds if you can actually use most, if not all, gcds on execute (it is possible). Because if you have 1 more crit, out of a stationary set of attacks (ie total of 7 executes, unglyphed makes 4 really likely where as glyphed makes 6 likely), it's still a damage/dps increase.
    I'm not condoning the use of the glyph, but saying it's situational.

  17. #17
    If Glyph of Recklessness is not worth a slot, what would you recommend for SMF?

  18. #18
    Bump. Would really love to hear your thoughts.

  19. #19
    High Overlord Roseby's Avatar
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    I prefer the utility, it depends.

    I might run Glyph of Enraged Speed
    Glyph of Rude Interruption
    Glyph of Whirlwind
    Glyph of Raging blow

    Your two constants are glyph of unending rage and glyph of heroic leap.

    You have to play it by the ear, i.e. encounter by encounter. On Will of the Emperor for example, Enraged Speed.
    Stone Guard + Garalon = Raging Blow
    Protectors of the Endless = Rude Interruption

    So on and so forth.

    A case by case basis, just get comfortable with mixing it up in that glyph slot.
    Roseby - Fury/Arms Warrior
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  20. #20
    High Overlord Jakesterwars's Avatar
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    Hi Roseby! <Off topic hello>

    As you may see on my warrior's glyph selection, I use the glyph of recklessness. I do this to test around with current gear sets since I range close to 30% crit buffed up in raids. It's not as powerful as other glyphs and even when I obtain 4 piece, it will still be a loss. The crit loss is too great for the extra few seconds to be honest. Obviously fights that will margin out to be barely using 2 recklessnesses will be much higher to not have the glyph. Reason being is because your dps and damage during that 12 second time frame will be much more bursting than stable. If you KNOW the fight will only allow you to have one recklessness, don't use it until execute phase. Simple as that. DPS loss at the beginning, but picked up later on when the bulk of your damage comes from Execute.

    The other reason why the glyph is not good is when people sacrifice say.. the Garalon chest (of any setting) and the heroic Feng helmet, you lose a LOT of crit. Losing those two pieces alone will push me much lower on the crit rating and making the glyph far more superior. In the mean time, for this tier at least, the glyph won't be successful by any means due to gear itemization for warriors.
    Jakesterwars - Jakesterwars#1531
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