1. #1

    my dungeon finder problem

    So my holy set is pretty good but for whatever reason I cant get a weapon to drop not from lfr and I was running jade temple everyday but now its down to a couple times a week simply nothing will drop. Out of boredom more than anything else I started ret healing the dungeon runs, it saves 5-10 minutes depending on your groups damage and is simply more fun than healing or spamming 2 spells for holy dps.

    My problem is 3 days in a row I have been kicked without explanation. Seeing as this is always a problem when I hybrid heal I dont need an explanation but I do want to know what the problem is with hybrid healing. Blizzard buffed hybrid healing this expansion to the point where I can heal any instance as ret and still put out alright numbers. I've tried even stating that I am doing this before the run starts but that just causes fighting and bickering between members of the group.

    Please watch this video and tell if theres anything I can do other than give up on hybrid healing with random group finder.


  2. #2
    Pandaren Monk
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    tldr: you have to wade through a lot of dicks if you want to find some quality friends.

    OT: I hate to take your thread other places right off the bat, but, what's your setup for ret healing? I am super curious, since I always like to do things I am not supposed to (back in the day I did the sheath of light then over to holy spec, man did it shine on Dreamwalker!)
    Currently I often tank heroics on my lock.

    Anyways, yah ppl are dicks, looks like you were doing fine. When I was lvling my shaman at the end of wotlk, I qued heals as enhance, healed quite well just off of procs, and still topped dps until lvl 70. People just get used to some dps queing as tank and failing hard and make judgements. Same pricks who'd kick you for having a piece or two of pvp gears.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    tldr: you have to wade through a lot of dicks if you want to find some quality friends.

    OT: I hate to take your thread other places right off the bat, but, what's your setup for ret healing? I am super curious, since I always like to do things I am not supposed to (back in the day I did the sheath of light then over to holy spec, man did it shine on Dreamwalker!)
    Currently I often tank heroics on my lock.

    Anyways, yah ppl are dicks, looks like you were doing fine. When I was lvling my shaman at the end of wotlk, I qued heals as enhance, healed quite well just off of procs, and still topped dps until lvl 70. People just get used to some dps queing as tank and failing hard and make judgements. Same pricks who'd kick you for having a piece or two of pvp gears.
    I spec into selfless healer and use the procs for reduced mana/cast time flash of light and I spec into holy prism for a 20second cd instant heal on the whole party as long as they are relativly close to what you are fighting the other talents dont really affect it too much although holy avenger is great for boss fights. The main trick is to heal as 2 stacks of selfless healer if you wait for the 3rd people start dropping and you can fall behind at 2 stacks its pretty much instant cast and the little mana it costs is gained back in 2 seconds.

    I have not got to try it in a raid yet my ret gear is still pretty crappy but I'm hoping its as good as it was in wotlk

  4. #4
    Best bet is to just run with friends as ret healing, otherwise go holy so you don't risk getting kicked. People hate concepts that challenge their views on how things "should" be. Also it is impressive to see you heal in ret effectively. Keep up the good work.

  5. #5
    The Patient Roguezor's Avatar
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    That's just stupid... you where doing fine and no deaths like you said yourself (and as you can see in the video) -.-

    I wouldn't mind that at all myself when tanking on my dk. It actually happened a few days ago, a holy pala asked if he could go retri while we downed the water boss and i told him "sure, as longas you can keep us alive hehe" and made sure i didn't mass pull like a maniac (as i tend to do since.. you know... blood DK )

    Just like you we had no problem and did the whole place just as fast because of his extra dps

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ngc2440 View Post
    Best bet is to just run with friends as ret healing, otherwise go holy so you don't risk getting kicked. People hate concepts that challenge their views on how things "should" be. Also it is impressive to see you heal in ret effectively. Keep up the good work.
    Heh I thought dungeon finder was a replacement for friends? I've played mostly with the same group since dungeon finder came out in wotlk and slowly they've quit or only log on for raids

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 03:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Roguezor View Post
    That's just stupid... you where doing fine and no deaths like you said yourself (and as you can see in the video) -.-

    I wouldn't mind that at all myself when tanking on my dk. It actually happened a few days ago, a holy pala asked if he could go retri while we downed the water boss and i told him "sure, as longas you can keep us alive hehe" and made sure i didn't mass pull like a maniac (as i tend to do since.. you know... blood DK )

    Just like you we had no problem and did the whole place just as fast because of his extra dps
    I'm glad there are sane people that see it as if its not hurting us its helping us, and actually give people a chance, perhaps I might try asking the tank if hes alright with it specifically at the start when I just ask the group dps always start bickering and especially with dk tanks you dont have to pay attention or really do much to heal a tank through a heroic these days.

  7. #7
    Mechagnome khatsoo's Avatar
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    As Roguezor kind of says.
    With my Blood DK I prefer a good heal behind me and masspulling the whole rooms while the dps aoe them (eventhough I still do more damage in most cases with pugs); than a heal giving extra damage while keeping me from pulling extra mobs.

    Anyway, I love to Disci heal as well as pulling damage while it's not 'badly' seen by others as discipline is considered a heal spec.

    Keep doing it as well as you do as long as the people understands you, if not, just switch to the holy spec and face your role eventhough you could give more to the party. Also, it shouldn't be far the day you got your healing mace, good luck!

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by khatsoo View Post
    As Roguezor kind of says.
    With my Blood DK I prefer a good heal behind me and masspulling the whole rooms while the dps aoe them (eventhough I still do more damage in most cases with pugs); than a heal giving extra damage while keeping me from pulling extra mobs.

    Anyway, I love to Disci heal as well as pulling damage while it's not 'badly' seen by others as discipline is considered a heal spec.

    Keep doing it as well as you do as long as the people understands you, if not, just switch to the holy spec and face your role eventhough you could give more to the party. Also, it shouldn't be far the day you got your healing mace, good luck!
    This is actually why I dont ret heal guild runs, they prefer to pull 2 -3 groups and chain pull and like to have my actually using my heals, although with better ret gear I do think this is still possible especially as tanks and dps gear up too. For now though I am not sure which way is actually faster but in dungeon finder where you get the % boost to healing and damage done ret healing has only sped up my runs

  9. #9
    Glyph of the Battle Healer will help quite a bit for those trying this spec. Though I run with Selfless healer/WoG/ and Lights hammer. Usually run with Divine Purpose as well, but may switch to HA for the burst healing.

  10. #10
    People will kick you immediately without allowing you to demonstrate to them that it's entirely viable because they are idiots.

    I was kicked all the time for healing as feral in resto gear in Vanilla. I was kicked all the time just for being a ret paladin in TBC. This is bearing in mind that I performed absolutely completely acceptably and sometimes way better than people "appropriately" specced.

    It's a problem that hybrid classes have been dealing with since the beginning. People have no idea how you work or what is and is not acceptable or viable, so they see that you aren't x/y/z as they believe you are supposed to be, and kick you.

    I will never kick someone in pvp gear, someone hybrid healing, someone tanking in DPS gear, or any sort of out of the ordinary setup unless they prove to me by their performance that they are not actually capable of doing their role in that condition. That is what everyone should do, except they don't, because they are stupid.

    There is literally nothing to you do to stop from getting kicked from pugs for hybrid healing or anything otherwise "not normal". I would run with friends, or at least enough friends that a vote kick won't go through. That is the only thing you can do to not get kicked, because randoms are 90% idiots.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by swunt View Post
    This is actually why I dont ret heal guild runs, they prefer to pull 2 -3 groups and chain pull and like to have my actually using my heals, although with better ret gear I do think this is still possible especially as tanks and dps gear up too. For now though I am not sure which way is actually faster but in dungeon finder where you get the % boost to healing and damage done ret healing has only sped up my runs
    Though I agree with that, LFD runs are usually of the: "tank stops before pack. Tank shuffles around. Tank keyboardturns for no apparent reason to left and then to right. Tank moves forward. Stops. Tank asks "R?" Tank pulls. Dps does 10k. Pack takes forever to die. I yawn and throw 1 Healing wave and 1 riptide 'just 'cause' during this pack. Pack dies. Next pack. Rinse and repeat".

    I'd hybrid heal if I'd actually be useful as elemental. My shaman friend hybrid heals for this reason. Healing random heroics is truly extraordinairily boring, especially heroics like Jade Temple. I doubt he'd hybridheal when we have a guildie tank for us - most pug healers can't keep up with them at all and he slows down. Though above example is often exaggerated (not always tho.... it's based on a true story of just 2 weeks old), I imagine that's why pug tanks take it slower. When I tank for complete strangers, I take it way slower too.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
    People will kick you immediately without allowing you to demonstrate to them that it's entirely viable because they are idiots.

    I was kicked all the time for healing as feral in resto gear in Vanilla. I was kicked all the time just for being a ret paladin in TBC. This is bearing in mind that I performed absolutely completely acceptably and sometimes way better than people "appropriately" specced.

    It's a problem that hybrid classes have been dealing with since the beginning. People have no idea how you work or what is and is not acceptable or viable, so they see that you aren't x/y/z as they believe you are supposed to be, and kick you.

    I will never kick someone in pvp gear, someone hybrid healing, someone tanking in DPS gear, or any sort of out of the ordinary setup unless they prove to me by their performance that they are not actually capable of doing their role in that condition. That is what everyone should do, except they don't, because they are stupid.

    There is literally nothing to you do to stop from getting kicked from pugs for hybrid healing or anything otherwise "not normal". I would run with friends, or at least enough friends that a vote kick won't go through. That is the only thing you can do to not get kicked, because randoms are 90% idiots.
    Isn't that exactly the same assumption they make when they kick you for being a feral healer? "This healer isn't healing specced, so he must be an idiot".

    Even if you can heal as retri in Heroics I wouldn't feel comfortable with a non-healing specced healer healing the group. It might be going fine in that run, and really if you have gotten that far in as you did in the video I no longer see the problem with it. But if I saw that the healer in my group at the beginning of the run wasn't respeccing from a DPS spec I would probably have a problem with that, mostly because I would question what the hell Blizzard is doing with the difficulty level of the game if you barely even need healers anymore...

    I'm well aware that there are challenge modes for those who want an extra challenge but this is getting ridiculous, everything is about damage, even for tanks... Everything needs to go so damn quickly and just aoe pull/nuke everything. I feel we might as well remove all the trash as they no longer serve any purpose other than speed bumps and just design ToC dungeons since that's what people seem to want.

    To be clear and on topic, I definitely don't think you deserved that kick since you had been doing fine for so long. But I personally don't like the idea of a healer, healing in a DPS spec even if they can handle it.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
    People will kick you immediately without allowing you to demonstrate to them that it's entirely viable because they are idiots.

    I was kicked all the time for healing as feral in resto gear in Vanilla. I was kicked all the time just for being a ret paladin in TBC. This is bearing in mind that I performed absolutely completely acceptably and sometimes way better than people "appropriately" specced.

    It's a problem that hybrid classes have been dealing with since the beginning. People have no idea how you work or what is and is not acceptable or viable, so they see that you aren't x/y/z as they believe you are supposed to be, and kick you.

    I will never kick someone in pvp gear, someone hybrid healing, someone tanking in DPS gear, or any sort of out of the ordinary setup unless they prove to me by their performance that they are not actually capable of doing their role in that condition. That is what everyone should do, except they don't, because they are stupid.

    There is literally nothing to you do to stop from getting kicked from pugs for hybrid healing or anything otherwise "not normal". I would run with friends, or at least enough friends that a vote kick won't go through. That is the only thing you can do to not get kicked, because randoms are 90% idiots.
    I agree with you and I also never kick before I see atrocious performance (and even then I rarely kick, either, I'm more likely to kick when someone behaves like an ass). You have to understand however that, from these people's perspective, you're going to be the first decent player who does that. To take the pvp example: I cannot, absolutely not, remember the last dude I met in any random pug or raid in pvp stuff who had half a clue what he was doing. I always wonder how they claim they can pvp when we wiped on decurses. And in any case any pvper will do less damage, period, than someone with same level pve gear, add to this the common lack of skill and you get dreaded "below the tanks"-dps. People won't wait this out and get rid of the person before he causes problem. Again I agree with you and I do not do this myself, just trying to shed some light on why people may be kicking.

    However in OPs case I don't even begin to understand. The best thing I figure was at some point during the second boss the tank dropped dangerously low (or well, dangerously...), and the entire group was at 60%, I believe you Layed the tank or else he sacced his ghoul. At the end of the encounter some guy said "that was close" - at this point he may have inspected you and sensed danger: "we nearly wiped (compared to having a real healer) and this guy is actually ret wtf". Thats the best I can come up with. In all fairness, doing an heroic where you feel a healer cannot really keep you up (because you can't, you keep people up adequately, but they won't feel safe, they probably didn't feel safe on the second boss) is really unsettling, stressful, and annoying.

    I know you said in your vid that even if you mention it at the start, people may kick you. I'd actually suggest to be a bit more vocal. The silent, sneaky ret who queued as a healer is definitely gonna get kicked a lot faster, similar to the ret who queues as a tank and proceeds to "tank as ret" (while theoretically absolutely possible, in most cases, especially in the past, this was just a way to grief a group). It comes off as kinda arrogant ("im so good i can do two roles at the same time", while the pug knows that the reality is gonna be huge fail, as usual (even though YOU may in fact be good!)). "Hi guys, since healing is so terribly boring in heroics I'll actually be speccing Ret, and be healing you like that, if at some point you feel this is not working out, I'll go back to holy dw ". Something like that may ease the path to being accepted: you stated what your plan is, and that you have no problem with criticism (kicks are usually a result because people cba to criticize constructively, it often becomes a different story if you invite them to however).

    Ah well. Hope you guys get to hybridheal properly without kicks in the future.
    Last edited by Cirque; 2012-11-21 at 04:26 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    Isn't that exactly the same assumption they make when they kick you for being a feral healer? "This healer isn't healing specced, so he must be an idiot".

    Even if you can heal as retri in Heroics I wouldn't feel comfortable with a non-healing specced healer healing the group. It might be going fine in that run, and really if you have gotten that far in as you did in the video I no longer see the problem with it. But if I saw that the healer in my group at the beginning of the run wasn't respeccing from a DPS spec I would probably have a problem with that, mostly because I would question what the hell Blizzard is doing with the difficulty level of the game if you barely even need healers anymore...

    I'm well aware that there are challenge modes for those who want an extra challenge but this is getting ridiculous, everything is about damage, even for tanks... Everything needs to go so damn quickly and just aoe pull/nuke everything. I feel we might as well remove all the trash as they no longer serve any purpose other than speed bumps and just design ToC dungeons since that's what people seem to want.

    To be clear and on topic, I definitely don't think you deserved that kick since you had been doing fine for so long. But I personally don't like the idea of a healer, healing in a DPS spec even if they can handle it.
    It's not an assumption. You are misinterpreting it as an assumption. I don't join a group and think "Everyone in this group is an idiot." I join a group and then, through demonstration of their abilities, my party members show me that they are idiots. This happens so incredibly frequently that I am safe to state the conclusion through experience that the vast majority of people anyone will encounter in randoms are pretty stupid. I don't join a group and start trying to kick everyone out because I have already finished assuming they are all idiots, but you join a group as an unusual specc and are automatically assumed to be an idiot and people will try to kick you. It's different.

    And removing trash from dungeons is not what people want. Being able to blaze through trash and coming up with ways to blaze through trash more effectively and quickly is not the community saying "We don't want trash." ToC was easily one of the most hated raids, before people started focusing themselves on hating DS. It's actually a fun part of the game trying to figure out ways to do trash better or being able to aoe trash effectively. Getting through it more quickly doesn't mean we don't want it.

  15. #15
    Dreadlord
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    I would assume the problem is that people do not trust you to save them in a tight spot. If a tank overpulls, ret heals are not going to save the group and that is what a healer has to plan for. I run on a couple characters with two tank friends, a blood dk and a very geared bear. These guys pull massively, trusting the healer to keep them up and for our AOE to knock packs down quickly. More than once we have gotten our asses handed to us by heal-spec'd healers not doing enough so forgive me if I don't trust your ret healing. Shaving 2 minutes off a dungeon with your dps is not going to make me feel better if it means there's a greater chance we might all die.

    For the record, if you are asking the group and only ret healing if people say ok, then sure whatever go for it. But if people are bickering or not liking what you're doing, then expect to get kicked. I know that personally, my dps suffers when I know a healer is not performing well for some reason or another because I'm trying to build heals into my rotation and watch the party health as the fight progresses and that immediately nullifies any damage the healer is doing. I died tonight to a healer trying to heal in shadow spec and we actually sat there for 10 minutes, refusing to pull the boss until we could kick him.
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